Looking for Support: The concept of Hell

[CaptainPrudeman]

Would God allow a person with such an awareness gap to choose hell? Would He not first do all possible to close the gap, to show him love, to change his mind about the path of pain he is choosing?

First, hell and sin are one in the same in that they are rejections of God. If God allows man to choose one then He necessarily must allow man to choose the other.

Second, read what I italicized. God actually does that! That is life on Earth. On Earth, God tries to change our minds and lead us to Him instead of sin. He shows love and mercy to guide us. But once we die, the soul is fixed. No more chances to change. God gives us as many chances as we need during life on Earth and I think that’s what you aren’t realizing. God already tries to change our minds.

 

[Shasta-Rose]

“So, I’ve been around a lot of so called smart people. What I have come to learn in my late thirties is that intellect can be a disability especially when it seems to override the general principles of common wisdom.”

True. I belong to an association of “intelligent people.” You need a certain IQ or higher to join. I have told a number of people in our group over the years, just sitting and chatting during get-togethers: The people you meet in life as you go along—the most honest and honorable, the most amiable, the most helpful, the most loving, and the most loyal—are not necessarily found among the most intelligent.

This really shook me when I learned it, because I always thought it is intelligent to be a good person all around. I mean, who wouldn’t want to, right? But this is how it is. The intelligent have a corner on intelligence, but that is all.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Why would a merciful God even allow such a place to exist? It makes no sense theologically. In fact, the phrase ‘infinitely merciful’ is completely illogical. An ‘infinite;y merciful’ God by definition would send no one to Hell. Not a single soul.

Mercy cannot be given to those who don’t accept it. The soul that goes to hell doesn’t accept mercy, by definition.

I still don’t think you understand what hell truly is, why people go there, and why God allows it.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Well, I think we’re having a robust conversation here. I find Jan1000 and OneSheep, both of you, intellectualizing too much and hence placing a false burden on God. I wouldn’t say morality is relative but I would say logic is relative; it comes from a particular frame of experience not everyone shares. Hence, why we so many languages and cultures and the artistic process is often times not logical. Also, Logic isn’t universal (unlike morality) in that there are certain fallacies like The No True Scotsman Fallacies which aren’t fallacies at all. So, what I’ve learned from life is to be open, value experience over intellect, and be grateful to be in the community of the common man as opposed to supposedly, allegedly more elevated positions of society.

I’m meek (slow to anger or punishment) so for me the realization there is a Hell and that in fact it makes sense for it to be there to be a Hell was met with a period of grieving. It was also met with a period of gratitude that by nature or circumstance I am not on that track. Then further, it was met with a need to reach people who are teetering on the border but still redeemable through prayer. Then it finally lead to a period of apology and repentance to God to doubt his wisdom and question his love. None of this was done with condemnation or our fear of Hell.

So, for me, Hell is the absence of God with the ultimate consequence of renunciation of eternal life. Even today’s Sunday scripture talks about how Jesus defeated the Devil and his realm of death. Again, since Satan appeared to Adam and Even in the Garden of Eden in the form of the snake humanity has been plagued by imperfection and death.

Finally, again I am meek. Were anything to happen to me or my loved ones I would forgive. It is written in Mark we are asked to forgive so that we may be forgiven. However, when it comes to some mortal sins such that the sin becomes the chore of the person and their state with no return or redemption, well Hell is the only place for them. Again, I like to believe this is not common and anyone who can be redeemed will be redeemed.

So, I tell Jan1000 and OneSheep do not make the mistake of being rebellious angels. Do not think that an ever loving God who wants the best for most is incompatible with a God who in an imperfect situation such as ours puts people in Hell when at their chore they are sin and consumed by sin. Again, going back to logic; I don’t come from that framework of condemnation so it doesn’t fallow for me that God is not perfect because there is a Hell. That is the logic of the secular world who are being like the rebellious angels in saying, “I want it this way and unless it’s this way on my terms I won’t accept you.” From that logic they argue everything.

 

[Latin]

I hope RepetantCatholic I don’t disappoint you with Catholic Theology.

God DESIGNED and CREATED in this world the dramas of evil and sin to make everyone noble and joyful saints and take everyone up heaven.
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Do you know RepetantCatholik, if God would willed He could create this world in which evil and sin would have no place?

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Catholic Encyclopedia: Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
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310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin.
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As we see RepetantCatholik, if God would willed He could create this world like the life is in Heaven, free will, no evil, no sin, no worry of hell, but we would be spoiled brats, not joyful saints. – Free will is NOT the cause of sin.

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THE REASON GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN

Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.

Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.

In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, xv in “P.L.”, VII, 115-24. St. Augustine “De ordine”, I, vii, n. 18 in “P.L.”, XXXII, 986).

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With infinite wisdom and goodness GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN for the benefit of the entire human race.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design” (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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THINK ABOUT REPETANTCATHOLIC
If God would willed He could create this world like the life is in Heaven, free will, no evil, no sin, no worry of hell, NOT EVEN THE IDEA OF HELL.
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God created far better then that, in this word God trains us by learning experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles to be noble and joyful saints in Heaven.

God created the dramas of evil and sin for the benefit of the entire human race.
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

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Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.

God promised destruction and hell to all Ninevites, and at the end God provided Universal Salvation to the Ninevites.

This is the way God works, promise hell and provides Universal Salvation.
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God bless

 

[Maximian]

I’m still a Christian, but unfortunately I can’t support your position. I think God loves and forgives all of us.

You are absolutely within your rights to believe there is no hell but I don’t think you can say you are a Christian if you don’t agree with Christ, who very firmly taught that hell is real.

It’s a bit like saying “I believe in capitalism but I’m a communist.”

 

[Latin]

The soul that goes to hell doesn’t accept mercy, by definition.

NO ONE SAY NO TO GOD’S INVITATION TO HEAVEN

Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.

CCC 298 Since God could create everything out of nothing, he can also, through the Holy Spirit, give spiritual life to sinners by creating a pure heart in them. 148
And since God was able to make light shine in darkness by his Word, he can also give the light of faith to those who do not yet know him.

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St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

(1) I. On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: "For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it"
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, providing most effective powers to the will."
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St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:

308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

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CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).

2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.

Acts 13:48; … as many as had been appointed for eternal life believed. – Not even one former unjust, idolaters, drunkards, etc. said no to God’s salvation.
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God bless

 

[poche]

It may be that they are on the way to Hell. It may be that before they die they might make an act of perfect contrition that God will accept. We don’t know. All we can do for them at this moment is to pray for them.

 

[Vico]

…

And also, Catechism of the Catholic Church

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

 

[IanM]

Here below is a download copy! The archieve.org site is a fantastic resource, but not the most easily navigable for new users. When you have obtained your copy, explore it a little further to find many other valuable resources:
The four last things : death, judgment, hell, heaven : Martin, von Cochem, 1634-1712 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Latin]

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom,

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott,

Fallen man cannot redeem himself. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His grace of Final Perseverance.

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance. …
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The salvation of every predestined to Heaven is eternally protected by God’s gift of Perseverance, this is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of the salvation of every predestined to Heaven. – This is an infallible teachings of the Trent and formal teachings of the Catholic Church.

Without God’s gift of Perseverance everyone would die in mortal sin, (THERE IS NO SALVATION WITHOUT IT) while the receivers of His gift of Perseverance NO ONE can die in mortal sin because this is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of every predestined to Heaven.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect.

ante prævisa merita
“Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.”
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The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the decree the Divine reprobation.

Merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).
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Calvinistic reprobation means the absolute will to condemn to hell.
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Explanation of the decree the Divine reprobation:

Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.
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For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, not to save them.

Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins.

Lessius rightly says that it would be indifferent to him whether he was numbered among those reprobated positively or negatively; for, in either case, his eternal damnation would be certain.
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As we see above Vico, Mortal sin is NOT a radical possibility of human freedom but God’s absolute predestination not to go to heaven.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…
As we see above Vico, Mortal sin is NOT a radical possibility of human freedom but God’s absolute predestination not to go to heaven.
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God bless

The Catholic Church teaches otherwise, as per the Catechism 1861. A person is the partial cause of their own salvation (in the order of time) per the dogmas of faith of the Catholic Church.

 

[Vico]

… My understanding of traditional Hell is on a literal PLACE …
Being “damned” means you are sent (perhaps instantaneously) to an actual location where there is nothing but pain and suffering. …

Place can mean either 1) a particular position or point in space or 2) an order. The rational soul is immaterial so how could there be a particular position in space for it? After the resurrection of the body, then there can be a corporeal spatial hell.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Well, Latin I’ve read what you are written but I don’t understand how it applies to the discussion. I’m not asking for God or the World and it’s creation to be different, nor do I find shocked by anything I’ve read that you quoted. I feel all that is being discussed is well in line with the discussion of Hell. So, what, in fact, are you arguing? Are you taking Jan1000 and OneSheep positions there is no Hell? Are you taking another position?

From my readings of Job and the Old Testament, the way I’ve come to see life is that it’s a special experience where we choose how we conduct ourselves and in the broader sense where we belong after we die. Again, even in last Sunday’s mass the scripture pointed that upon death those in a state of grace (a Catholic term) will be like the Angels not given in marriage. Also, Pope Francis has consistently asked parishioners to be wary of the presence of the Devil and his doings in the world. From experience the Devil does have his hands in a lot of things, as in Job, and per Pope Francis.

So, no, I wouldn’t want it any other way. But I don’t quite understand what you are arguing. I’m sorry to sound critical but it just comes across as a display of your knowledge of the Catholic Church without much relevance to this discussion. So without quoting other sources, make your argument. Then I’ll reread what you wrote in light of your argument.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

So what is the mechanism where one accepts God’s infinite mercy? Are you telling me people WANT to be in Hell? Then it’s not Hell then, right? Why would being in Hell be desirable?

Here on Earth, God gives us many chances to accept and cooperate with His mercy. He offers forgiveness from sins and the repairing of the soul from its brokeness. We have the ability to accept or reject this Earthly grace. Even those outside the Church are called to do good things for their fellow man and to follow the law on their hearts.

At particular judgement after death, we are given the choice of God or no God. Those who did the will of God, who loved Him more than anything else, will accept Him and join Him in heaven. Those who loved other things more than God? They detest the idea of an eternity with God, a God they do not love. Souls are fixed in will after death and so they cannot “learn” to love God in heaven, if such a thing were even possible in the first place. As such, they cast themselves into the eternal fires of hell, the place of evil, suffering, and hatred. They go there because there is no God there. The soul that does not love God finds heaven a terribly painful experience and desires to leave that they might be rid of Him. As I have said before and say again, souls do not choose heaven or hell, they choose God or no God.

That is the purpose of this thread. Please enlighten me. My understanding of traditional Hell is on a literal PLACE where souls that do not meet a level of goodness defined by God (state of moral sin) at the point of their death (separation of soul from body) are “damned”

God never casts someone into hell. To damn is against His merciful nature. Souls in mortal sin have forsaken God for some temporal benefit and as such do not want to be in a place where the One they do not love is omnipresent.

regardless of any actions their souls take after they die.

Souls are fixed at death. No actions are taken after death except choosing God or no God.

Are you saying that if I am not in a state of mortal sin I can still go to Hell?

No. Souls without mortal sin have no impediments to choosing God at death.

If I am in a state of moral sin it is possible I do not go to Hell?

We trust in God’s mercy and grace to allow conversion to Him even at the moment of death, but a soul that dies in mortal sin and does not repent will go to hell. By their very nature, they cannot accept God and the gift of heaven.

Where do people who are not baptized go?
Where do atheists that were baptized but never commit a mortal sin go?

For these, we trust in God’s mercy and hope that their souls are aligned with God at death. We cannot make definitive statements about their afterlife.

 

[OneSheep]

First, hell and sin are one in the same in that they are rejections of God. If God allows man to choose one then He necessarily must allow man to choose the other.

You aren’t seeing a difference between a person choosing sin, from which he can learn and develop a conscience, and choosing hell, where he supposedly suffers for eternity?

Are you familiar with the concept of espoused theology vs operative theology? Like, would you see a difference between a parent letting a child make his own mistakes and suffer temporary consequence, and letting him choose to jump off a bridge?

But once we die, the soul is fixed. No more chances to change

So, back to the question. If a person does not know what he is doing in choosing hell, would God allow him to do so? Anyone who chooses hell is choosing self-destruction, and surely does not know what he is doing.

This still is not satisfying. Why would a merciful God even allow such a place to exist? It makes no sense theologically.

It doesn’t make sense if a person cannot choose to get out, I agree. But let’s take the concept of hell metaphorically, and say that hell begins with people’s poor choices on Earth. We choose to live in addiction, for example. But then, people do come to see the light (eventually, if they live long enough).

In fact, the phrase ‘infinitely merciful’ is completely illogical. An ‘infinitely merciful’ God by definition would send no one to Hell. Not a single soul.

Exactly. Like I mentioned, people on this thread are talking about hell being chosen, not forced.

Yes, this is clear. But all you’ve done is explain the psychological underpinnings of why the concept of Hell emerged. It explains nothing regarding the theological validity of it.

The validity is very personal. People believe that God sends people to hell, or God allows an ignorant person to choose hell. The thinking is that God respects peoples’ “free will”. I am not embracing “relativism”, what I am saying is that people initially embrace the idea of a very judgmental God, because judgment is the voice of the conscience, it is closer to the “surface”, more accessible.

To separate one’s psychological underpinnings that lead to a punitive image of God (i.e., the superego) from deeper spiritual underpinnings that know God as infinitely loving and merciful takes first knowing ones’ own “true self”, the capacity within oneself to love and forgive people unconditionally. If one is capable of such love and forgiveness, then one is going to see any image of God sending people to hell as completely contradictory. After all, how could God be less understanding, loving and forgiving than we are?

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

You aren’t seeing a difference between a person choosing sin, from which he can learn and develop a conscience, and choosing hell, where he supposedly suffers for eternity?

There is no difference. One is only final because the soul is fixed upon death and no longer receives grace to turn to God.

Like, would you see a difference between a parent letting a child make his own mistakes and suffer temporary consequence, and letting him choose to jump off a bridge?

Once again, souls are fixed upon death. Even if you tried to tell your kid to not jump, they would still do it. God can’t stop them because He gave us free will and would not force anyone to love Him against their will.

So, back to the question. If a person does not know what he is doing in choosing hell,

They aren’t choosing hell, they choose God or no God. If this concept isn’t clear then please let me know but I implore you, stop side-stepping this.

It doesn’t make sense if a person cannot choose to get out, I agree.

It’s not that they can’t, but that they won’t. A soul without corrective grace cannot, on their own merit, turn to God.

 

[oliver109]

Think of it this way, God forces us to die, we have no choice, yes we have choice to sin but no choice to die, no one can be choosing Hell as they are not choosing to die in mortal sin, they are just choosing to sin mortally.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

After all, how could God be less understanding, loving and forgiving than we are?

Well I’ll respond to this, because I felt the same way. I can forgive anything done to me knowing I will be in Heavenly grace among others I love who are also in heavenly grace. But that does not respond to the state of no return a soul who has gone too deeply into mortal sin is in or becomes.

There are parables in the Gospels about this. I believe it is the parable of the mustard seed among others. But in my own words, it would be like the soul can ripen or go sour. OK, we are not equal to God nor aspire to be, but we too are part of the Holy Spirit. What that means is that we are all unique and in that uniqueness there are things that cannot be changed unless we were to become totally different people. Well, in being totally different people we would not be ourselves. So, once the soul goes sour through sin, that’s it there is no solution other than to separate that soul from others ie Hell.

So it’s not that you or I don’t forgive them or God does not forgive them, it is they can never change.

Finally, I don’t put drug addicts in this category in general. I usually but people who caused genocide or the serial killer in this category.

 

[OneSheep]

One is only final because the soul is fixed upon death and no longer receives grace to turn to God.

I am more inclined to believe "with God, all things are possible. A merciful possible.

OneSheep:

You aren’t seeing a difference between a person choosing sin, from which he can learn and develop a conscience, and choosing hell, where he supposedly suffers for eternity?

There is no difference.

You are not seeing a difference between your letting your own child make his own mistake, with a temporary consequence, and letting your child jump off a bridge?

Allow me to present a different image. It was presented by a priest/bible scholar at a Bible study. He said, in his opinion, “if a person actually chooses hell, they do so screaming and kicking against God the whole way” (God pulling towards heaven).

So if you are thinking that God is passive, you have a very different image of God. And if you would not physically intervene to stop your own child from jumping off a bridge, well, I don’t know how to address that charitably.

They aren’t choosing hell, they choose God or no God. If this concept isn’t clear then please let me know but I implore you, stop side-stepping this.

If they are choosing “no God”, then they are choosing hell, according to what you say. Instead, are you saying that a person has no idea that they are choosing hell when they choose “no God”, and God surprises them with hell?

Are you familiar with the book Good Goats: Healing your image of God by the Linns? In it, they put forth a very wise measure: “If something you read in scripture or elsewhere presents an image of a God who loves you less than the person who loves you most, then something is amiss.” (note: I paraphrased a little).

And then, my unanswered question still applies: “Would our infinitely loving, merciful, forgiving God allow a person to choose hell when the person does not know what they are doing?” I’m not side-stepping bro, you still keep not answering the question. I’m looking back, I don’t see your answer.