Looking for Support: The concept of Hell

[OneSheep]

So God chooses punishment for people that they don’t know they are getting?

Yes, he does. If the absence of doctrinal knowledge about punishment in the afterlife removed all culpability for one’s actions, then it would be a huge disadvantage in the struggle for salvation to be a Catholic.

I can see the quasi-fairness of this, but it is a little confusing, depending on your image of God and humanity. What do you see as the purpose of God telling Catholics what they may suffer in hell, but not tell many (everyone)?

Are you familiar with “Baptism by desire”?

 

[C.Ray]

I went through a period of life – and I have seen many others go through the same – that I could describe as “Hell”.

It was self-inflicted, a consequence of a constellation of selfish decisions and behaviors that isolated me from those I love and even from myself.

At the time it was hard to see that I was in such a condition, but exposure to good influences slowly cracked the walls I was enclosed within and let a little light in. That little bit of light was enough to make me realize just how much darkness I had surrounded myself with.

Is Hell real? Yes. It’s a state of being that is closed off from grace. Does God do it to us? Definitely not. It’s a condition we create for ourselves.

 

[TK421]

If I were to use just my brain, my brain would tell me that a proportional number of humans will go to hell as the number of angels that go to hell.

Traditionally, in history before the 20th century, most saints have believed that the vast majority go to hell, although to a great extent I honestly do think that is based on some poor, underdeveloped theology. For example, Christians assumed anybody not evangelized by the Gospel (almost 100% of the population outside of the Roman Empire) would be damned because of the necessity of baptism, but I don’t think there’s any theological or logical grounds for believing that. I love and admire the Church fathers and the medieval saints, but there were some things - through little or no fault of their own - that have very poor arguments and can be replaced with more logical, developed theology. Not to say I know for a fact that most people will be saved, but there were some erroneous assumptions made in the past that are no longer taught by the Magisterium, and the Magisterium trumps the opinion of ten billion canonized saints.

Now, when it comes to what I hope for: I am absolutely on board with people like Balthasar and Bishop Barron in hoping that every soul will be saved. It’s a not-so well-known detail that Pope St JP II also didn’t rule out this possibility.

 

[OneSheep]

I think the Father will work with anyone and everyone he is capable of working with.

Yes, and He is quite capable!

So, I reason with you, take a serial killer. What can do for them?

Repentance, but that is very difficult for people who have empathy disabilities (“Psychopaths”). We can forgive them, but must protect society from them. The disability makes it so that they may possibly only behave out of fear of consequence, and they kill because it gives them a feeling of power. If they learn different ways of feeling powerful, and their empathy is somehow developed, then there is hope that they can learn to get along in society and avoid sin.

Can he let a serial killer into his home?

Yes, even within the person who kills many there is a soul, a “true self” to which the person has very little access. They have no prayer life, they are not connected with Love within. We have faith in an omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God, who has ways of reaching everyone, but we also believe that it is possible for someone to reject God, to choose hell. The tricky part is trying to figure out how a person would actually choose hell, a self-destructive behavior. Maybe you could shed some light on this.

if there is a hell and some people go to it would you still accept God?

If hell is chosen, then it has nothing to do with God’s action. Does God allow people to choose hell if they do not know what they are doing?

If God forgives serial killers and allows them to choose heaven, do you accept God?

Now, when it comes to what I hope for: I am absolutely on board with people like Balthasar and Bishop Barron in hoping that every soul will be saved. It’s a not-so well-known detail that Pope St JP II also didn’t rule out this possibility.

I happen to be finishing up Balthasar’s book, which is pretty good, but a little difficult to understand in parts. I’m on board with these folks also.

I think that a very important aspect of all this is the question, “Do I think some (specific person) should be in hell?”. If so, it might be good to reflect on the possibility that I hold something against the person. What Jesus modeled from the cross was a forgiveness that involved understanding people, seeing that they do not know what they do when they choose sin. We can, in prayer and reflection, cognitively and emotionally empathize with people who sin, just as Jesus did, and then forgiveness comes. The choice to understand becomes a deeper forgiveness, it is a coming to see the innocence of people blinded by anger and judging of others.

 

[Jesuslover]

Yes I am familiar with baptism by desire, and baptism by blood as well. God gives everyone at least a vague sense of morality by the conscience. As such, it’s not totally unreasonable to think that people go to hell for doing things they know are wrong even if they don’t expect any punishment.

 

[Servant31]

Hey friend. I looked at the testimony of near death experiencers which helped me with understanding on a lot of topics. One of those was hell. Some claim to hav been dragged into it, or God allowing them to experience it so they could warn us. I personally saw this solid empirical evidence. Thought that might help. Regards

 

[OneSheep]

God gives everyone at least a vague sense of morality by the conscience.

Yes!

As such, it’s not totally unreasonable to think that people go to hell for doing things they know are wrong even if they don’t expect any punishment.

Your language sounds more like people are sent to hell against their will, instead of people choosing hell. Is that your thinking?

 

[Jesuslover]

While we do get “sent” to hell after the Particular Judgement, it’s more proper to say that we send ourselves there by our own sins. So we choose hell through our own actions.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

If God forgives serial killers and allows them to choose heaven, do you accept God?

So, you asked me that question. So, I’ll answer it. Not only would I accept God, but it would bring me nothing but great joy. The fact that a Serial Killer can be redeemed would give me great hope and solace. Realistically, I don’t think it can happen. But then again you liken their condition to a disability, which again as I covered is the way of the world and science. I don’t see it as a disability, much like pedophilia; I see it as a state of deprivation for which there is no return.

But I don’t think we come from similar experience or background so we’ll never see eye to eye on this issue. At my age of late thirties I’ve come to reject much of science and the whole academia thing. But this comes from personal experience.

I don’t think I can get you to see past the veil. Again, we humans are created in God’s image so we have free will even if within certain parameters. Some of us have certain advantages and disadvantages, I myself have a disadvantage with a disability. But, again, I love God and I love the guidance he has given me through reflection and personal revelation.

For me, being a helper sort of person who has worked with disadvantaged youth it was coming to terms that there is a Hell that sent me down the path of greater prayer and reflection. Also, to be grateful to live a good life and love the Father.

But that is me.

 

[goout]

goout:

We really cannot fully appreciate the why and how of separation from God.

Perhaps you could clarify your question in light of this verse:

Romans 8:
38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Context. Right in the same chapter is this:
God’s Indomitable Love in Christ. (heading title, not a verse)

28 We know that all things work for good for those who love God

I was pointing to the mystery involved in the afterlife. We don’t really know what that experience will be like, either heaven or hell.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Well, it’s always the ways of the world that get in the way. I won’t continue the discussion other than to write I don’t question God’s ever loving presence even though I do believe it is reasonable to believe in a Hell. I think it is unreasonable to believe that certain states of deprivation will be present in God’s home. I also think it’s unreasonable to impose upon God that he indiscriminately accept everyone in his home and then to question his love.

Again, I reject Academia and their narratives or their understanding of the human condition. I recognize a Hell but that knowledge doesn’t keep me, “in line.” There is the Church of Satan that welcomes Hell. Other groups dabble in Hell. These aren’t small groups.

But again, it’s always the ways of the world that get in the way. Post-Constructing history until it becomes common thought and a cliche and those who don’t believe in it are ignorant. All the while no one asking if it reflects modern man and our motives and if it doesn’t, how would it apply to people of the past?

But again, no one wants to be called ignorant so they accept it and profess it. Everyone wants to be part of the secular club. I personally don’t want to be part of that club. This doesn’t make like our protestant brothers and sisters favor condemnation, but instead it gives me the responsibility to act through prayer. It gives me more of a calling to help those who are on the margins repent.

 

[Jesuslover]

The Hell you believe in wasn’t even a concept during Jesus’ time.

Seriosuly? St Matthew’s gospel says “Then two shall be in the field: one shall be taken, and one shall be left” (Mt 24:40). Are we to assume that the one who is left is to be saved? Jesus made it very clear that some people will be saved, some won’t.

 

[Shasta-Rose]

The Church says that hell exists, and God doesn’t send people to hell, they choose to go there.

The older I get, the more I think that, yes, people are going to go to hell, and maybe more people will go there than we would immediately estimate. There just seems to be so many people who are just plain evil. In one instance, several teenage girls who were befriended by an elderly woman went to her house and killed her—beat her to death—for whatever money was in the house. I think it was about $20. To me, that spells soulless and evil. What can you think when something like that happens? If hell isn’t appropriate for criminals like that, who is it for?

On another front: A friend of mine died recently. He was such a nice person and a gentleman (I think that term still means something). He was also an unrepentant, avowed atheist. They say one chooses to go to hell, but I am having trouble thinking of such a nice man being in hell. I said prayers for his soul—which he probably wouldn’t appreciate—but then I thought…I don’t know…was I wasting my breath? Is he in another group of people headed for hell—nice, but going there anyway? That thought makes me sad.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Continue to pray for him and trust in the Lord.

As for the criminal girls, it’s hard not to think of criminals as monsters, but Jesus loves them too, and will try to save them if they just reach out. People often turn to the Lord in prison.

 

[OneSheep]

Not only would I accept God, but it would bring me nothing but great joy. The fact that a Serial Killer can be redeemed would give me great hope and solace.

God has already forgiven them. He forgave us “before always”. He knew that the serial killer would exist before He created, do you think that He has held a grudge for millennia? No, He forgave because as His Son on the Cross saw, “they do not know what they are doing”. Our conscience sees guilt, but God sees something deeper.

you liken their condition to a disability

It is a disability. No person without wound wants to have their empathy suppressed. I do think it has more to do with nurture than nature, the child learns to stifle empathy because what he loves is used to manipulate him. it is a subconscious stifling.

At my age of late thirties I’ve come to reject much of science and the whole academia thing. But this comes from personal experience.

If you don’t mind my saying, you’re a bit young to have already closed your mind!

But I deeply respect your personal experience. Have you been hurt by science and academia? Have people who valued these belittled you, mistreated you? Told you that you are wrong?

I love God and I love the guidance he has given me through reflection and personal revelation.

I keep in mind that there is a long “mytagogia”. As years pass we come to see our private revelations in a slightly different way. What can be said for all people in relationship with God is that we become more accepting, more capable of forgiveness.

it was coming to terms that there is a Hell that sent me down the path of greater prayer and reflection. Also, to be grateful to live a good life and love the Father.

You see, this is the kind of personal experience that halts the superficial arguments. People claim that “ideally” we come to God because of love rather than fear. But if fear of hell is what draws us down the path of closer relationship, praise God!

But that is me

That is you and God!

I also think it’s unreasonable to impose upon God that he indiscriminately accept everyone in his home and then to question his love

The Father knows every hair on our head, every joy, every wound, every true conception we have, and every misconception. When Jesus said, “for they know not what they do” He saw what the Father sees, people lacking awareness, people trying to do something good, but so blind, blinded by want, by judgment, by hatred.

This, by no means, is “indiscriminate”, it is an omniscient benevolence, a loving, tender forgiveness that knows no bounds. What Jesus showed us is that we, too, are capable of such perfection.

But yes, I agree with you. If we are truly humble, we have no place to question His love.

 

[Lucy_1]

So, the question I pose to you is if there is a Hell would you come to terms with God as to why it has to be there?

The Church teaches there is a hell. There is debate about how many are there, what it’s like, if all receive the same degree of punishment, and if their punishment is eternal. We simply don’t know.

My dad died an unbaptized agnostic, and I can’t tell you how much pain I endure knowing that he may be there.

However, God only holds us responsible for what we know, and if we are living as morally as we can-- though our standard/belief may be flawed-- we are less culpable. (I don’t know if what I’m saying is clear, but that’s as clear as I can make it

If we know that God is good and loving, then we trust that whatever system he has in place will ultimately be good and loving.

 

[OneSheep]

28 We know that all things work for good for those who love God

This verse does not modify or contradict Romans 8:38-39. Nothing separates us from the love of God. I will grant, though, that something can separate us from our own love of God. God’s love is always there, but we can become alienated from our true self. Indeed, relationship takes some time and prayer, but the alienation of sin happens within the person. God’s love is always there, but when we are alienated there is only one pair of footprints in the sand.

Does that make our experiences more similar?

If there was a rational basis for Hell, I would consider it.

Would you understand a phenomenological basis? A basis that comes from a default way of seeing the world, a seeing that comes from our very nature? I would not ask you to endorse it, because your own viewpoint is congruent with God’s infinite love and mercy.

The conscience itself sets up a dualistic cosmology. We have a “dark part” of our shadow, parts of ourselves (our very nature) that we cannot accept, we come to see the parts as coming from an evil place, and this subconscious perception/framework keeps our behaviors in line. There comes to be a polarity within, but it is a functional polarity. It is violent, but it is beautiful. And part of that cosmology is that we want naturally want to banish that part of ourselves, of our nature, to a place of eternal suffering. The Adam and Eve story in part reflects such banishment.

Of course, Jesus invites us to transcend this default cosmology, and this is where I see your relationship (I think), but the default in itself is a thing of beauty. Yes, the default cosmology causes some suffering, but the net effect is cooperation and some degree of harmony. It is a default that has contributed to our survival as a species.

Does that make belief in hell a little more tolerable?

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

I don’t see how hell is incompatible with the loving, merciful God. Upon death, we meet God. God then invites us into heaven to be with Him forever. A graceful soul will accept, as their only desire is to be with God and all others were purified out on Earth or will be in Purgatory. The corrupt and sinful soul will reject that offer. They do not want God. They do not want His kindness or His mercy. After all, could you live with someone whom you hate so much that you constantly rejected His loving mercy?

God does not desire that we be His slaves. God lets the one who rejects Him do so, and they leave forever. They go to hell. Hell is not a place God sends people as punishment for sin. Hell is the necessary by-product of rejection of God’s presence. The soul sends itself there. And there, in that steeping pit of bitterness, hatred, and tears, they stay forever.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

But I deeply respect your personal experience. Have you been hurt by science and academia? Have people who valued these belittled you, mistreated you? Told you that you are wrong?

I went to Columbia University and the London School of Economics. One of my findings was published in a book that became popular. I won’t say the book for fear of revealing my identity.

I’m offended by your comment and your condescending writing. I’ve been in Academic, Financial and Legal circles and I know that a lot of it is biased. I could have chosen the path of arrogance and pride, but instead because of my illness found something greater.

I find you truly malicious. Again, I don’t fear Hell nor do I buy into the narrative that most people do. If the actual criminal justice system isn’t a deterrent for crime, then I imagine a negative outcome in the afterlife is going to be a deterrent for anyone.

Man, are you malicious. I don’t know what else to write to you.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Well, what I will write for now is the point of this post was not to condemn. I like to think the majority of people are fine even if they may be agnostic. I like to assume God judges us on how we conduct our life abide by the Golden Rule. Like I said, unlike many protestant brothers and sisters I’m not quick to condemn.

Currently I am retired and I write and enter writing contests, but this has inspired me to write a short story or a novella about this subject. I would like to better share the experience of Job and why it is essential work. And I would also like to better share the experience of personal revelation.

I was in GATE as a kid, Gifted and Talented Education. So, I’ve been around a lot of so called smart people. What I have come to learn in my late thirties is that intellect can be a disability especially when it seems to override the general principles of common wisdom. I don’t value academia having been around it and knowing it is so lost in it’s own dogma.

I think I will call the story or the books, “God’s Voice is Heard through the Thunder; Mary’s is Heard through Whispers.”

I wish at this point I can better convey how flawed the average academic is. Or I wish I could convey how irrational the average scientist is. And that none of their work really matters and they aren’t something to admire or to mimic or to emulate. I’ve heard too many times before the monotone voice of trauma and inner rage coming from them.

I don’t know why this topic would set people off like OneSheep or Jan1000. They will both discuss the academic myths of the past and apply it to me where I don’t come from that experience. My parents are Liberal Catholics, both good hearty individuals.

I pray Divine Office or Liturgy of the Hours and the prayer often appears, “predestined by Christ.” This isn’t to suggest Calvinism, but there is an understanding by the Church some have a better shot than others. I like to think my better shot came from having a loving family, with Catholic religious values, in a Blue State, and with a lot of prayer and respect for my fellow man that I’m lucky to have experience and personal revelation that others don’t.

May God forgive all sins. I know there is a Hell and I understand why it is there. I love and respect God’s unending wisdom. I wish Catholics would stop feeling inferior to the secular world and having to bend their views to fit theirs or to fit in or to feel smart.