Looking for Support: The concept of Hell

[TK421]

This opens a huge can of warms about human behavior and spirituality and psychology. Choices can be made with varying levels of culpability.

The theological explanation of hell is when a person definitively and with finality rejects grace with full knowledge and consent, and that it logically follows that the person is separated from God through their own self-exclusion.

The traditional explanation for why this might happen is the sin of pride. The person absolutely refuses to consent to God’s wisdom and authority because so-and-so or such-and-such a teaching angers them and offends them, so they deem their own pathetic wisdom to surpass God’s wisdom, and they make themselves their own god. It is a totally unjustifiable and reprehensible choice. The consequence is everlasting torment.

And so we continually pray that every soul will be saved and we model ourselves in the footsteps of Jesus: love, faith, hope, compassion, prudence, generosity, etc.

 

[goout]

TK421:

Like I said: no.

Sorry, somehow I missed it.

So God would not allow a person to go to hell if they chose without knowing what they are doing. We share this aspect of our images of God.

What it comes down to, then, is that some people choose hell, at least that is what the OP says. This begs a very important question about people.

Would anyone truly choose hell? That would be a self-destructive behavior, right?

I try to keep in mind that “eye has not seen and ear has not heard…”. This is in reference to heaven, but you can also apply it to the afterlife in general. We really cannot fully appreciate the why and how of separation from God.

Caricatures of hell don’t help. I have real life experiences that I would classify as hellish, and by those consequences I can have an idea what hell might be like.
But, I have faith in Christ, and so what hell is like, who is there, how they got there… is of no concern to me. I have thought about it, but my heart hopes for Christ, and for all people. The “many” that know him in heaven.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Jan10000 when I was younger we would be on the same page to a certain extent. Someone mentioned Egoism and Pride as inducing a rebellion towards God. That’s what I see in these shock jocks and people like Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein. That’s why I Jan10000 I ask you to take a reasonable analysis and if there were Hell would you still accept God? That’s the test. Again, in the context of Egoism and Pride; would you feel your knowledge of the Soul of malicious people is greater than God’s?

Now, this does not go with actual Theology, but for Jan1000 I think hell is not so much eternal torment but rather renunciation of eternal life. I’m sorry if this deviates from Catholic Theology, but that’s what I’ve come to understand.

I can’t write for another day because I’m a new user. But not just Jan1000 but any Catholic who may not appreciate or understand the concept of Hell, I ask that they up their Faith and pray the Rosary or Divine intervention and ask for insight. I promise you, you will have a Job moment. Take your time in those moments, like Job it will build your relationship with God. Cry, grieve, but I promise you, you will forever be changed in a good way.

Again, I’m not punitive. I’d like to think it is rare to end up in Hell where God favors recovery and salvation. For support I view St. Paul and the lives of the Saints. So, I write from a place of understanding and not from a place of condemnation. But definitely pray. Then the fundamental test will be presented to you at some point: if there is a Hell would you still accept God? For a moment you might not, and you may have to grieve for understanding and forgiveness but ultimately with greater spiritual maturity you will see why it is there and why it is in God’s right and just.

 

[po18guy]

Is that what you perceive? Sorry about that…

 

[po18guy]

One of us is certainly confused.

 

[catholic03]

This is a common analogy to explain why hell exists:

A loving father will punish his child for disobeying him.

Is God not a loving Father? God is a loving Father to his children, so he punishes them when they disobey him.

 

[OneSheep]

The person absolutely refuses to consent to God’s wisdom and authority because so-and-so or such-and-such a teaching angers them and offends them

So, for example, a person is thinking “That cannot be God’s wisdom, that is offensive because it goes against what society tells me”. Is that an example of the thinking behind such self-destructive behavior?

We really cannot fully appreciate the why and how of separation from God.

Perhaps you could clarify your question in light of this verse:

Romans 8:
38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is a common analogy to explain why hell exists:

A loving father will punish his child for disobeying him.

So it has already been established on this thread that hell is a choice on the part of the individual. Why would a person knowingly choose such punishment for himself or herself?

 

[TK421]

So, for example, a person is thinking “That cannot be God’s wisdom, that is offensive because it goes against what society tells me”. Is that an example of the thinking behind such self-destructive behavior?

It is my private opinion (based on private revelation) that every person has a final encounter with God/Jesus immediately before their judgment, and God makes a final appeal for them to repent.

If a person holds onto something that is gravely objectionable to the very end, then they separate themselves from God through their own self-exclusion. This happens because of pride.

 

[OneSheep]

OneSheep:

So, for example, a person is thinking “That cannot be God’s wisdom, that is offensive because it goes against what society tells me”. Is that an example of the thinking behind such self-destructive behavior?

If a person holds onto something that is gravely objectionable to the very end, then they separate themselves from God through their own self-exclusion.

You might want to rephrase your response in light of Romans 8 above, but I am still hoping to find an answer to my question. Is that an example of the thinking?

 

[TK421]

It appears you’re cherry picking scripture to argue for universalism. This belief only exists within Protestantism. It is official Catholic teaching that a person can separate themselves from God through their own self-exclusion.

I think I’ve exhausted my part in the discussion if you want to argue for something that is not within the purview of orthodoxy. I’m going to go now.

Peace.

 

[OneSheep]

It is official Catholic teaching that a person can separate themselves from God through their own self-exclusion.

I did a search for the official Catholic teaching, and I couldn’t find anything to support your statement. If you do find one, please pass it on to me.

I think I’ve exhausted my part in the discussion if you want to argue for something that is not within the purview of orthodoxy. I’m going to go now.

Peace.

No argument intended, I was just asking questions for clarification. You see, if a person says, “That cannot be God’s wisdom, that is offensive because it goes against what society tells me”, I think you can agree that the person does not know what they are saying, it is an untruth. He is thinking that what society tells him is more pertinent than God’s wisdom. My next question would be if you could come up with an alternative way of thinking in which the person clearly knows what he is saying/doing, but choosing self-destruction.

Peace to you also!

 

[TK421]

The promise of universal salvation (apokatastasis) was condemned early on in the history of the Church. It is not taught in the Catechism or by any Pope.

Loading…

www.wordonfire.org

 

[Dorothy]

Those who go to hell are where they want to be. That is the understanding I have been given by those who know more than me. They cannot stand the sight of God at the time of judgment, and they choose hell.

Our Lord Jesus Christ asks us to pray for sinners and for those who persecute us. They need our prayers and sacrifices! Our Blessed Mother is a great intercessor and she has asked for prayers and sacrifices in her many approved apparitions.

This world will begin to change for the better when more of us allow Our Lord Jesus Christ to sanctify us!

 

[OneSheep]

They cannot stand the sight of God at the time of judgment, and they choose hell.

Let’s how that fits in with your image of God. Would God allow a person to choose hell if they did not know what they were doing?

Our Lord Jesus Christ asks us to pray for sinners and for those who persecute us. They need our prayers and sacrifices! Our Blessed Mother is a great intercessor and she has asked for prayers and sacrifices in her many approved apparitions.

This world will begin to change for the better when more of us allow Our Lord Jesus Christ to sanctify us!

Thanks for adding this!

universalism

Note: asking what a person might be thinking when choosing destructive behavior is not arguing for universalism. Someone might have an answer to the question, but not you today. No worries!

 

[Dorothy]

Let’s how that fits in with your image of God. Would God allow a person to choose hell if they did not know what they were doing?

God is infinitely just and merciful. He knows what is in the hearts of people and their backgrounds and what they are culpable of.

Peace!

 

[Jesuslover]

They really don’t knowingly choose the punishment for themselves. St. Faustina says “But I noticed one thing: that most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell” (Diary 741). They are hedonists. They spend their lives on earth seeking fleshly pleasure, whether it offends God or not. They live for the present age, and they don’t bother to contemplate whether they might be in need of salvation.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Seems that if you believe the Bible, 99% of us aren’t getting into Heaven.

I don’t presume to know who goes to Hell, that is up to God. But that Hell exists, there is no doubt in my mind.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

To Jan1000 and one sheep, I was of similar thought as you two when I was younger. Again, I don’t speak from a place of condemnation. I think the Father will work with anyone and everyone he is capable of working with.

I think some of our Protestant brothers and sisters condemn too much. That might be one reason it is so difficult to understand there is a hell. We don’t want be as mean spirited or as narrow minded as them.

But I don’t speak from a place of condemnation. Nor do I speak from a fundamentalism or legalism. I speak from reflection and personal experience.

So, I reason with you, take a serial killer. What can do for them? What would a solution be for them? What would rehabilitation look like?

Suppose there was reincarnation and God reincarnated them into the perfect loving family. Would that stop him from ever killing again? I don’t think so. Why would it? Again, serial killer is an obvious state of deprivation where there is no recovery. The most likely case is this person would continue killing.

Again in the secular world science claims to have a scientific explanation for everything and hence everything can be cured. But that is the egotism and failure of science that does not recognize God or Evil. I scientist will say it is all genetic or a neurological disorder, so while it seems God can fix that scientists can’t fix that. I argue it can’t be fixed because that is the state of their soul. So, if there is any biological function involved it’s the soul first that changes it. It’s not the biological function changing the soul.

Evil is a state of no return. What can God do? Can he let a serial killer into his home?

Remember God is inviting us into his home. It only becomes our home when we accept the invitation. Atheist like to portray Hell as irrational so turn away from God. From my experience with atheist they are not rational, instead they look to authority from false sources choosing a mortal man or cabal of men to be their God. Again, atheists make mistake out of arrogance that they are enlightened for not believing in God or Hell. But there is nothing an atheist has ever said or written or done that is greater than the Bible or Christianity.

So the thought exercise you have to do and do this with prayer is if there is a hell and some people go to it would you still accept God? Or would you reject God for people who would not do the same for you? That is why this is done with prayer and grieving.

So pray the Rosary, meditate on the mysteries. Reject the dichotomy of worldly arguments. Ask for intervention and experience. Don’t be afraid you will be punitive in acknowledging a hell. No, the opposite will happen you will grow greater in love and need for reaching people that can be reached. You will value the common person and their prayers. But never once turn to atheism or a rejection of God because there is a hell. Don’t precondition your love of God on their being no hell.

 

[OneSheep]

They really don’t knowingly choose the punishment for themselves.

So God chooses punishment for people that they don’t know they are getting?

St. Faustina says

While we can have great respect for St. Faustina, we must remember as Catholics that private revelations to saints are not doctrinal. We are not obliged to believe any of it, and many of these have to be taken in the context of the times.

 

[Jesuslover]

Yes, he does. If the absence of doctrinal knowledge about punishment in the afterlife removed all culpability for one’s actions, then it would be a huge disadvantage in the struggle for salvation to be a Catholic. If that were the case, then only Catholics would be in hell because only they possessed the fulness of truth and therefore only they were capable of rejecting it.