Looking for Support: The concept of Hell

[ThomasMT]

I don’t believe in Hell. I don’t believe a God that loves us would torture us for eternity in unimaginable pain…

Doesn’t Hell Make God an Unjust Tyrant? | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Jan100 you haven’t replied but you sound innocent as a dove like I was. Always seeing the good and hope in others. That’s a good thing, but what I recommend is to up your prayer life. If you don’t pray the Rosary begin to pray the Rosary.

Ask for the Holy Mother’s guidance. I think the most instructive text on this is Job, where if you don’t believe there is evil then evil will find you. But as in Job so long as you love God, God is always in control.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I mean can you watch a movie or listen to music?

Sure, if it’s not dangerous to my personal faith or morals. People who are living bad lives morally are still capable of creating good and enjoyable things. In the OT there are plenty of essentially “bad” leaders and others whom God still used for his purposes. Also, people (all people) generally do a mixture of good and bad things in their life. If the movie, music, art, legal opinions, books, gourmet meals etc they create are good things in and of themselves, no harm in enjoying or benefiting from them.

Keep in mind that every movie or piece of commercial music has multiple people, probably hundreds, involved in its creation. Some may go to hell and some may not. If the people are still alive we have no idea where they might go. If they are dead, we have no idea where they ended up. I frequently pray for my favorite musical artists and actors, living and dead. There’s somebody else on this forum who actually does a little ministry praying just for celebs in the entertainment industry.

That is why I mentioned those shock jocks. I can’t listen to them.

I’ve never liked shock jocks either and don’t listen to them. Thanks for reminding me of them though because I should probably pray for at least one of them who was around in my youth and we briefly worked at the same place.

I can’t consume no matter how genius it is anything by anyone who may be compromised. How do I write it? I would be a hypocrite to consume something made by someone who is only going to end up in hell?

This sounds like you may be developing a scrupulosity problem. I would recommend that you discuss in person with your priest.

 

[TK421]

@jan10000

I realize hell isn’t a comprehensible teaching and I’ve been in your shoes before in the past. The reason hell lasts forever is because a person continues to sin and do evil forever. The final rejection of grace (after God has exhausted all other offers) is a rejection from the deepest part of a person.

 

[MamaJewel]

I think since the seventies a lot of people may have inadvertently taken the road to perdition for success.

Dang. Just dang.

The doctrine of hell is a byproduct of freedom and the human capacity to reject grace:

I may have the “privilege of freedom” as Bishop Barron says, but since I don’t know what love is, I can’t give any love back to God. Funny, that God gives us intellect and will and freedom, but God didn’t bestow in us the innate knowledge or understanding of Godly love.

Human Love is a learned behavior.

 

[TK421]

I may have the “privilege of freedom” as Bishop Barron says, but since I don’t know what love is, I can’t give any love back to God. Funny, that God gives us intellect and will and freedom, but God didn’t bestow in us the innate knowledge or understanding of Godly love.

Human Love is a learned behavior.

To some extent this is true, but if it were purely a learned behavior and nothing else then humans could never have learned it in the first place in order to pass it on to their children. It is also something innate that God writes on the heart and that he brings out of a person through his grace.

 

[Jessie]

You beat me to it! Jesus spoke loads about hell. He believed in it! The demons recognized Him. He spoke to satan. So, if the Bible says hell and evil demons exist, and Jesus says hell and evil demons exist, and the church teaches that hell and evil demons exist, it wouldn’t even come into my radar to doubt it for a milisecond.

I cannot get my head round being a Christian and not believing in hell. It doesn’t make sense. It’s saying you believe in Christ but you don’t believe what he says. So is He mistaken or is He a liar? (clue, He is neither of these).

 

[OneSheep]

So, in that acknowledgement of Hell comes the acknowledgment that people will go to it.

So, maybe we should get something clarified.

Do they choose to go there, or do they get sent there? This would depend on your image of God.

@Jessie @TK421 @Bungle Feel free to answer this also!

 

[Jesuslover]

If there were no hell, then why did Jesus come to save us? What would we need “salvation” from? And if you make the argument that Jesus automatically saved everyone through his Passion, then why would he have established the Church and told the apostles to make disciples of all nations?

 

[TK421]

RepetantCatholic:

So, in that acknowledgement of Hell comes the acknowledgment that people will go to it.

So, maybe we should get something clarified.

Do they choose to go there, or do they get sent there? This would depend on your image of God.

@Jessie @TK421 @Bungle Feel free to answer this also!

Hell is primarily a state of being, so a person chooses to go there. A person’s hell begins in this life through the choices they make but it can continue forever in the hereafter.

 

[OneSheep]

Hell is primarily a state of being, so a person chooses to go there.

Thank you for responding. Yes, what you are saying is part of unfolding revelation, it is the most modern approach (from what I know).

Back to image of God: Would God allow a person to choose hell if they did not know what they were doing?

 

[TK421]

A person who doesn’t know what they are doing isn’t choosing anything.

 

[OneSheep]

A person who doesn’t know what they are doing isn’t choosing anything.

Well, the Gospel says differently, right? There was a whole crowd of people who wanted Jesus crucified, chose to have him killed, but they did not know what they were doing.

 

[TK421]

TK421:

A person who doesn’t know what they are doing isn’t choosing anything.

Well, the Gospel says differently, right? There was a whole crowd of people who wanted Jesus crucified, chose to have him killed, but they did not know what they were doing.

A person is culpable to the degree that they know or don’t know what they are doing.

When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.
Luke 23: 33-34

 

[OneSheep]

A person is culpable to the degree that they know or don’t know what they are doing.

Yes, good point. We naturally tend to hold people culpable based on “they should have known better”. I do this.

If you don’t mind, though, the question: (because we are all so easily distractible! )

Back to image of God: Would God allow a person to choose hell if they did not know what they were doing?

 

[TK421]

Like I said: no. If a person has no idea what they are doing, there is no sin and there is no virtue.

People have varying levels of culpability for the actions they take. A well-formed Catholic has a high degree of culpability. Some people have less degrees of culpability.

 

[OneSheep]

Like I said: no.

Sorry, somehow I missed it.

So God would not allow a person to go to hell if they chose without knowing what they are doing. We share this aspect of our images of God.

What it comes down to, then, is that some people choose hell, at least that is what the OP says. This begs a very important question about people.

Would anyone truly choose hell? That would be a self-destructive behavior, right?

 

[TK421]

The answer to that question is of course only known by God.

It is indeed very self-destructive behavior, brought about through pride and egoism.

 

[goout]

I don’t believe in Hell. I don’t believe a God that loves us would torture us for eternity in unimaginable pain for something like a radio show where guys are trying to make a living.
I also don’t think at least 7 out of 8 people (not baptized) are going to this place as well. It’s probably much much less anyway if what you say is true.

Hell seems like a man-made concept used to keep people in-line. It really makes no sense.

Personally, I am much happier now that I realize there is not Hell. I’m still a Christian, but unfortunately I can’t support your position. I think God loves and forgives all of us.

I don’t believe in hell either, I believe in Jesus. Or “believe into” him as the original biblical languages are proposed. I have faith in a loving God through Christ.
AND,
I also know that actions have consequences, and that if I intentionally treat people inhumanely that has self inflicted unpleasant consequences. If I abuse alcohol that can have consequences.
Have you every experienced consequences for your poorly chosen actions?

If you can observe that actions have “self-made” consequences, why is the reality of hell a problem?

Is it possible that your real objection is to a false gospel that uses hell as a threat to produce goodness? Rather than the true Gospel, which is that a loving God desires our well being?

 

[OneSheep]

Would anyone truly choose hell? That would be a self-destructive behavior, right?

The answer to that question is of course only known by God.

Well, we know our own answer, and then it is pretty universal that we think of God as having the same answer. It’s not something to “blame” ourselves about, this projection, it just is.

What is going through a person’s mind when he is choosing a self-destructive behavior? Could you put it into words? I am suggesting that we can investigate people’s choices, in the context of the topic of this thread. This really does get to the heart of the matter.

Let’s say a person chooses to take up cigarettes, or take up drinking more alcohol. Pick anything self-destructive.