Looking for Support: The concept of Hell

[OneSheep]

I’m offended by your comment and your condescending writing

I apologize to you. No condescension was intended. My questions were sincere.

I could have chosen the path of arrogance and pride, but instead because of my illness found something greater.

That truly shows the work of the Spirit. Please know I mean that sincerely; I am not trying to hurt you in any way. Please consider giving people the benefit of the doubt.

Again, I don’t fear Hell

I somehow missed that. You found belief in hell very valuable in some way, something that effected your personal experience in a positive way. I am interested in how belief in hell became valuable even though fear is not a part of the equation. If you would rather message me, feel free to do so!

Man, are you malicious.

I’m not sure what triggered that thought in you. I write with charity and sincerity. I forgive your accusation.

And just a note: You are new to the CAF, so I would like to share an important rule with you. We are not to assume what another person is thinking; it is charitable to give people the benefit of the doubt and ask questions when we don’t know what the other person is thinking or saying. That said, I violated this by assuming that belief in hell became important to you because fear of hell is important. You have definitely straightened me out on that count, but I have yet to meet someone where fear of hell is a very important motivator for those who believe in the eternal and punitive aspects of hell, for example.

So while on the CAF try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and try to put your most forgiving foot forward. Please feel free to ask me questions about my comments and get things clarified.

Also, try to be aware that so much of what we condemn in others is something projected from within. The other guy has that splinter in his eye, and I have that post in my own!

Peace be with you.

 

[OneSheep]

I don’t see how hell is incompatible with the loving, merciful God. Upon death, we meet God. God then invites us into heaven to be with Him forever. A graceful soul will accept, as their only desire is to be with God and all others were purified out on Earth or will be in Purgatory.

Yes, that all is compatible with our loving, merciful Father.

The corrupt and sinful soul will reject that offer. They do not want God. They do not want His kindness or His mercy. After all, could you live with someone whom you hate so much that you constantly rejected His loving mercy?

This is a very good point, and does not contradict a loving Father. The question is, does this person know who God is, what he is about? If he does, then in choosing hell he is choosing a self-destructive behavior. People of sound minds and full awareness do not choose self-destructive behaviors.

So while there may be a really good reason for us to claim that there is a hell to be chosen (because God totally respects human freedom) the claim that there are definitely people there is a bit of a contradiction about what we know of humanity. Even when we are blind and lacking awareness, we will the good, we want what is best. When a person is seeing that hell is what is best, there is a serious awareness gap somewhere, right?

Hell is not a place God sends people as punishment for sin.

I find this a statement that reflects a Father who truly understands and forgives us.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

When a person is seeing that hell is what is best, there is a serious awareness gap somewhere, right?

Remember though, hell isn’t on their mind at all. The choice isn’t heaven or hell, it’s God or not. The corrupt soul isn’t one that would drop to their knees at judgement and ask for mercy. Some on this planet died rejecting mercy, angrily or sorrowfully. Judas rejected God by ending hisn own life in tears and pain. Others go headfirst into hell, cursing God. Either way, they chose to not do what they were made to do. They disobeyed their calling.

 

[OneSheep]

The choice isn’t heaven or hell, it’s God or not.

But see, the same question applies. If a person is perceiving that “not God” is what is best, there is a serious awareness gap somewhere, right?

Judas rejected God

Well, his conscience told him that he was worthy of destruction. We don’t know what happened “in the end”. Judas was self-destructive, there was a serious gap in his awareness; he was blind. In turning in Jesus, he was also blind. He did not know what he was doing.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

If a person is perceiving that “not God” is what is best, there is a serious awareness gap somewhere, right?

We do it all the time when we sin.

 

[Servant31]

“The Hell you believe in wasn’t even a concept during Jesus’ time. All the facts point to Hell being formulated by Christian leaders to keep Christians in-line. They then added Purgatory when they needed funds and people wanted to pray for the dead (among other reasons). Learn about the history of Hell and why it was formulated.”

Hey friend. So I disagree that hell was formulated by Christian leaders, and purgatory was later added for financial reasons. Didn’t Jesus have parables describing things being thrown into the fire? Cast into the outer darkness?
We have mystics and near death experiencers who tell us it’s real. To me that shows some degree of evidence.

 

[Servant31]

Take a look at Eben Alexander. His brain activity was rendered inert by an aggressive meningitis infection. His experience should have been impossible. He is also a Harvard trained neurosurgeon who now gives talks on these things.

Other experiencers though often have profound life changes. They also describe the experience as “more real than real”.

 

[Servant31]

Oops apologies I answered below.

 

[Servant31]

Welcome to the forum Repentant.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

but because it theologically makes no sense.

I don’t see how hell doesn’t make sense. How could a loving God force people to be with Him if they choose not to be?

 

[woolycaterpillar]

Of course people can go to Hell. It is an awful place where no love exists. Some people don’t take it very seriously, of course.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Such torture is not desired by God, but is the natural consequence of living without Him.

 

[Servant31]

I’ve heard it described as an absence of God. This includes everything that God is. Peace, justice, goodness, health, order, etc… So if you reject God then you go to a place where that no longer exists. Hell.

If there are evil spirits then they are there. So are you being tortured by them, quite possibly. The descriptions that I’ve heard say yes, but also of fire, loneliness, hopelessness etc. God doesn’t want anyone to go there.

In a way I think if it as the Wild West, as you get further away from civilization there is no law enforcement, therefore you end up with the beings who also live this way.

But I guess it depends on believing the source, which I do after some discernment and scrutiny. Hope that helps.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

I’m not exactly sure what causes the pain but satan and his demons are there. It is an actual place where souls will go after death. What they experience, I do not know.

 

[Servant31]

0/ So hey I know you mentioned your not necessarily convinced by near death experiences specifically. But this is one of a man who reported to have died and been saved from hell by Jesus. He had a complete life change after. He is now a pastor and does a lot if missionary work. He seemed to answer your question regarding Hell a little at the start. Regards Jan.

 

[OneSheep]

No, because Hell is not a place where our just our bad parts go. Hell is where ALL of your soul goes to be tortured for eternity. Really, really painful torture. Such a concept is incompatible with a merciful and loving God.

Yes, it is incompatible with His love an mercy. I did not mean to say that hell is only where our “bad parts” go, I intended to say that hell is where people want sent the parts of themselves that they resent. I am speaking in terms of how the conscience (specifically the desire-to-punish part) “drives” our perceptions of people whose actions trigger our shadows.

I think you may be missing the gist of what I am saying, but that’s okay. My son has the same objections when I say “It is very natural to think that way”. He’s says, “who cares if it’s natural to think that way, it is a thinking that leads to suffering”. My point is that we can approach the belief with a deep appreciation for its natural underpinnings, that it is not like we have been “misled”. It is not that we have been misled. Instead, we have been led by our nature, and now invited to embrace the supernatural. Jesus loves and forgives in a way that is supernatural, and unfolding revelation guides us to new challenges.

OneSheep:

If a person is perceiving that “not God” is what is best, there is a serious awareness gap somewhere, right?

We do it all the time when we sin.

Exactly. Would God allow a person who has a serious awareness gap to choose hell ?

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Exactly. Would God allow a person who has a serious awareness gap to choose hell ?

If you sin then you obviously have the capacity to reject God even though you know the consequences. I don’t see how there’s any awareness gap there.

 

[OneSheep]

OneSheep:

Exactly. Would God allow a person who has a serious awareness gap to choose hell ?

If you sin then you obviously have the capacity to reject God even though you know the consequences. I don’t see how there’s any awareness gap there.

I think you can agree that when a person does evil, they think that they are doing something “good”. As St. Augustine describes, it is often a “lower good”, but the person is thinking that they are doing something beneficial for themselves. To the observer, the behavior is self-destructive, but it can be also observed that the person is in denial, is lacking awareness, is addicted to the behavior, etc. The sinner perceives that the behavior is fulfilling in some way, but there is an awareness gap, the person is blind or does not fully grasp the consequences. (note: I am talking about all the consequences). This is something we can see in all hurtful behavior including self destructive behavior.

Would God allow a person with such an awareness gap to choose hell? Would He not first do all possible to close the gap, to show him love, to change his mind about the path of pain he is choosing?

 

[OneSheep]

OneSheep:

I did not mean to say that hell is only where our “bad parts” go, I intended to say that hell is where people want sent the parts of themselves that they resent.

I still do not understand. The Catholic doctrine of Hell is one where your entire soul suffers for all eternity - even if you have done many ‘good’ deeds in your life. Whatever you are describing (I still don’t get it) is clearly nowhere near the Catholic doctrine of Hell. If you are defending yet another concept of Hell, that is worth discussing, but from what I gather yours is not a defense of Catholicism.

I think you can see from my responses that I agree that the concept of hell as a punishment for eternity runs contrary to who I know as a loving, merciful God. Indeed, the forced punishment model is not one promoted by anyone in this thread, as far as I remember. What people are saying is that hell is chosen, which does not necessarily contradict the concept of a merciful God in light of people having the “free” choice for such an option. However, in order for a person to make a “free” choice, the person would need to be unburdened by denial, addiction, blindness, all of the “gaps” I mentioned above that make possible self-destructive behaviors.

What you will often see, however, is that people do not want to understand that people do what is hurtful for understandable reasons, reasons that involve the gap. Why? I think this is so because regardless of the “choice” approach, the idea of people who have done evil suffering in hell is attractive. Because our own perceptions of evil characteristics are projected from our own shadows (the posts in our eyes) we naturally want those who display those characteristics to be banished to a place of eternal punishment.

People have a natural compulsion to punish wrongdoing. In order to carry out such punishment, people are subject to a natural empathy block. A friend has disrespected me in some way, violated my rule, and now I see the person as a jerk, something negative. Did I actually will, specifically, that the friend now has some negative value? No, the cognitive effect, the illusion, is unwittingly caused by the anger/resentment triggered in me, the hurt person. The conscience, and specifically the shadow aspect of it, are fully involved here. Indeed, the hurt person may wish the now former-friend to end up in hell. It is an illusion created; the remedy is understanding and forgiveness.

Do you see how natural this is? Do you see how our nature pretty much draws us to such a concept of hell as eternal punishment? “Such a person who does such enormous evil would have to receive the most awful punishment possible.”

(continued) (sorry for the length.)

 

[OneSheep]

In summary, I am not defending the concept of hell as a place of eternal punishment where a person could not change his or her mind and get the hell out. What I am defending is that normal, loving people can naturally be drawn to the concept of an eternal punishment (“chosen” or forced). Jesus invites us to understand and forgive people, as He did from the cross, and when we do so we no longer want, especially in the inside, for someone to suffer punishment. One may want correction for the other, but not banishment or suffering.

What I am also saying is that for people to accept a new concept of hell, we have to understand the underpinnings of the old concept.