Looking for the stats on “homosexuality & pedophilia”

[do_justly_love_mercy]

Most sexual abuse is perpetrated by men?? Gee, really? Not by turtles?

I don’t find your flippant comment at all helpful. Of course I didn’t mean turtles. My point was that most sexual abuse is committed by males against females.

But for pity’s sake, an 80z% abuse rate in the priesthood?

The Catholic priesthood is not representative of the population as a whole.

And that the couple that Ruth Bader married were dragged in for abuse?

That is one example. Not at all representative. You might as well say, “What about Fred and Rosemary West?”, as if that proves something about all heterosexuals.

You could say then that heterosexual men are prone to pedophilia of little girls if you add girls to the equation .

Again, sexual orientation and paraphilia are not the same thing.

I shall wear it as a badge of honor.

I don’t know what shocks me more, that you said this or that two people gave you hearts for it. Your comments on this thread are appalling.

 

[Freddy]

I don’t know what shocks me more, that you said this or that two people gave you hearts for it. Your comments on this thread are appalling.

At least the mods lead by example and have removed that appalling image. If @JamesV.Cameron is so keen to get his ‘badge’, then I’m sure he’ll be just as keen to repost it.

Somehow I doubt it.

 

[StudentMI]

James, do you believe I was groomed?

 

[ImQuiet]

Um…just to be clear, WND isn’t the researcher, it is reporting (citing) the research. And um…one more thing, impugning the reputation/honesty of researcher is not an intellectual response to the data that source is presenting. By all means, challenge the data with competing research findings - but please don’t make unsubstantiated (ad hominem) slurs like that.

I did. The sources Bannon used cite pedophilia and paraphilia as disorders and deviancy, not as an orientation, proving my initial point.
I realize that WND isn’t the inital researcher, I’m just skeptical of the news they output.

And I notice you seem to have skipped my reference to the (secular) data from the Royal Commission in Aust. Do you think they can be relied upon.

My apologies. I’ll look into it when I have the time.

 

[ImQuiet]

Maybe. Maybe not, there’s a significant likelihood you dealt with some kind of abuse, be it mental or physical. I don’t think every gay man was groomed, I don’t think every gay man was abused as a child. But enough are that it’s not likely a coincidence. The man that abused me was gay, but thankfully I am not.

This is a direct attack towards the gay community and its absolutely sickening. My friends aren’t abusers, and it’s insulting to paint them with this ridiculously broad brush you are utilizing.
I’m sorry for what happened to you, but I’m not going to let you sit here and gloat behind a keyboard as you smear a community that I’ll be the first to admit is not without it’s problems but is also made up of some kind, genuine people who are trying to figure out their purpose in life, same as any of us, and who I am proud to call my friends.
Jesus ate with the tax collectors. Try taking a lesson from that.

 

[otjm]

The statistics of the John Jay Study did not, as I understand it, make any inquiry as to whether or not the accused priests had Same Sex Attraction; and if that is correct, then what they found is that about 80% of the priests accused of abusing children were abusing male post-pubescent boys.

One can follow the "if it quacks, has wings and feathers and webbed feet, it is not a cow"approach and say that the evidence points to SSA as an underlying cause.

I have seen comments made that it was about “Power and violence”, and I would never say that power and violence had nothing to do with the abuse. But heterosexual men do not hit on teenage boys - at least in my experience.

As an aside, the issue is primarily not about pedophilia, it is about ephebophilia, which is adult sexual activity with teenagers (os it covers both homosexual and heterosexual conduct).

Pedophilia is sexual contact with pre-pubescent children, a completely different issue. And definitely more often it may occur with both same sex and opposite sex children, and some times both.

 

[ImQuiet]

And it’s become pretty clear that this thread is already going off the rails. I won’t be surprised if it’s locked soon.
Y’know, the Church’s turbulent history with the gay community was the one of the biggest reasons holding me back from converting. The vile crap you guys are spewing has pretty far-reaching consequences.
It’s not only insulting, it actively damages Catholicism’s image as a place of love and compassion.
And with that, I’m done engaging with this thread. @Lion_IRC I’ll take a look at the Australia thing you sent and then I’ll probably just drop this thing entirely. It’s sickening to see people call themselves Catholics and then say some truly awful things in the same breath.

 

[Lion_IRC]

There’s no reason the discussion can’t be confined to whether the available statistical data shows that most clergy abuse cases involves homosexual pedophilia. It might be extremely uncomfortable for same-sex attracted men to learn that this does appear to be the case.

…but no more uncomfortable than being told that there’s a supposed correlation between being a Catholic priest and being a pedophile.

(I argue that you cannot simultaneously be a real priest and a pedophile. These are mutually exclusive categories. Likewise, if I see a bank robber disguised as a Nun, my first thought is not about whether Nuns are more likely to rob banks.)

 

[otjm]

This is a direct attack towards the gay community and its absolutely sickening. My friends aren’t abusers, and it’s insulting to paint them with this ridiculously broad brush you are utilizing.

It is not an attack on the gay community; it is an attack on a subset of the gay community. And that subset is not only thoroughly identified and studied, but is the founding basis of NAMBLA - North American Man Boy Love Association.

And the matter has sufficient historical evidence to trace back at least to ancient Greece.

There has been an open question as to how many priests have SSA, and not long after the John Jay Report, there were public guesses of anywhere from 10% to 80%. About 3 to 4% of priests have been accused of sexual abuse of minors - 3 to 4% more than there ever should have been.

I would suggest that your response is technically correct, and unnecessarily harsh to someone who has been abused. You have not walked in their shoes; perhaps you could tone down your response a bit.

 

[WingedHussar]

You would think if sexual assault was really about ''power and violence", your average rapists would not discriminate between the sexes in their choice of victims. That is just a talking point for feminists to attack straight men and old-school masculinity.

 

[ImQuiet]

It is not an attack on the gay community; it is an attack on a subset of the gay community. And that subset is not only thoroughly identified and studied, but is the founding basis of NAMBLA - North American Man Boy Love Association.

NAMBALA has never been considered part of the gay community by anyone who is not part of NAMBALA. Any and all LGBTQ+ organizations have denounced them.
To my knowledge, the NAMBALA is actually the only pedophile organization that’s trying to get mainstream acceptance. Most pedos want to be left alone, because they know that society is never going to accept them, and with good reason.
As I said, I worked with watchdog groups during my highschool years. These people aren’t looking for acceptance, they’re looking for victims. NAMBALA is the outlier, and nobody wants anything to do with them.

I would suggest that your response is technically correct, and unnecessarily harsh to someone who has been abused. You have not walked in their shoes; perhaps you could tone down your response a bit.

I’m sorry that happened, but people I’m very close to are routinely told to kill themselves because of their orientation, among other things. I’m sick of hearing stereotypes and slander tossed at them. Hiding behind abuse doesn’t make the things someone is saying ok.

You would think if sexual assault was really about ''power and violence", your average rapists would not discriminate between the sexes in their choice of victims. That is just a talking point for feminists to attack straight men and old-school masculinity.

And qualified psychologists apparently, but what do they know?

 

[WingedHussar]

If they were qualified, and not quacks, they would not subscribe to feminism.

 

[otjm]

The psychologists take the position that homosexuality is an “orientation” but not a “disorder”. The basis for this distinction is one based on certain practical considerations - certainly not any kind of in-depth understanding of the cause. If I recall, the factors that led to homosexuality not being regarded as a “disorder” are things like:

• the condition does not pose a threat to anybody;
• the condition is often not a source of distress to the individual;
• the condition does not prevent the individual functioning in society.
• most homosexuals do not desire treatment (and of course, there is no accepted treatment!)

So while it is hard to conclude that homosexuality is not the consequence of some departure from a norm, it is easy to understand why it is classified as “not a disorder”.

The change in the DSM for homosexuality from disorder to orientation should be the subject of a different thread, as it appears to have been a political decision.

 

[ImQuiet]

And where did I mention feminists?
Please, tell me why two PhDs are wrong about the psychological aspects of rape.

 

[StudentMI]

I don’t think every gay man was groomed, I don’t think every gay man was abused as a child.

Bingo in my case. So what caused it?

 

[otjm]

NAMBALA has never been considered part of the gay community by anyone who is not part of NAMBALA.

Unless you are an historian of the gay community(s) you don’t have the ability to say that other than your personal opinion and anecdotal evidence. You are certainly welcome to your opinions. There is no question that some members of the LGBTQ wish to distance themselves from NAMBLA if for no other reason than that they know what the general population thinks of adult sexual predators of children - and that is by no means any indication that they do not also have the same revulsion. The first documented opposition to NAMBLA by the LGBQT community was in 1979.

 

[StudentMI]

There is no question that some members of the LGBTQ wish to distance themselves from NAMBLA if for no other reason than that they know what the general population thinks of adult sexual predators of children - and that is by no means any indication that they do not also have the same revulsion.

So, they just have the same revulsion, then?

 

[ImQuiet]

That link just repeats feminist talking points and does not address the question. If it was really about power and not sex, why do rapists tend to choose victims that coincide with their sexual orientation?

Y’know what? I don’t care. I have too many exams to prep for, I’ve been running on no sleep, and this thread is exhausting enough without debating something that you’re clearly prepared to reject anyway. Believe what you will. Congrats, you owned the feminists. Give yourself a medal.

Unless you are an historian of the gay community(s) you don’t have the ability to say that other than your personal opinion and anecdotal evidence. You are certainly welcome to your opinions. There is no question that some members of the LGBTQ wish to distance themselves from NAMBLA if for no other reason than that they know what the general population thinks of adult sexual predators of children - and that is by no means any indication that they do not also have the same revulsion. The first documented opposition to NAMBLA by the LGBQT community was in 1979.

Are you a historian of the gay community, or did you just google that documentation?

EDIT: Sorry, that was uncalled for. This thread is just tiring.
You’re right, I’m no historian, but it stands to reason that a group that has been ideologically opposed to NAMBALA since '79 would be pretty opposed to it since its inception, which was in 1978. The gay community denounced it pretty quickly.
You’re right in that my evidence is largely anecdotal. I’ve only really interacted with pro-pedophiles and pedophiles online, and they weren’t particularly interested in political activism outside of the group running the ETHOS press.
Similarly, my LGBTQ history mostly comes from interactions online, as it’s not really something I discuss with irl friends. Whenever I’ve brought up things like NAMBLA or MAPS, they were all quick to denounce them, and scrolling through related things on twitter etc. shows a pretty consistent trend to denouncing pedophiles.
That’s all I know on the history of the subject. Given how quickly groups were to attack NAMBLA and based on my experience I’d say that the LGBTQ+ community doesn’t support pedophilia.

 

[otjm]

How does the church gather these statistics? How many clergy are SSA disoriented? And if that is a larger proportion than the general population, what does that imply about directives the church has already made?

The directives to diocesan clergy was made in 2005. Prior to that, to the best of my knowledge, there was no directive for diocesan priest, although there was one for those joining an order.

As I have noted, estimates of how many priests have SSA ranged from 10% to as high as 80%; and I know of no studies properly done which have ever been published. It is all anecdotal and “ball park” estimations.

In short, I know of no published studies by the Church showing the estimated ratio of heterosexual priests to homosexual priests.

 

[otjm]

Are you a historian of the gay community, or did you just google that documentation?

Well, I am 74, have practiced law including juvenile sexual abuse cases, and spent 2 years in college seminary. I suspect in all of those years and work, I have had more opportunity to investigate the issue than you have, including, but not limited to having had a ride to high school with a priest who later was convicted of sexually abusing boys, and having had a pastor who died of AIDS. I also have had a wide variety of individuals I have worked with over the years who were homosexual, and had ample conversations with them as well as professionals related to my work.

And NAMBLA is not about pedophelia; it is about ephebophilia.

Good luck with your classes, and God bless.