Loss of Rewards

[lanman87]

You believe the gates of hell had their way with Christ’s Church.

I believe God people (the ecclesia) will never be overcome by Satan. This is all the Bible says. To say it is speaking only organization that later became based in Rome, became an earthly hierarchical organization, and consolidated it’s power in the middle ages is a stretch. True believers who are Orthodox are part of that church, true believes who are Coptics are part of that church, and true believers who are Protestants/Evangelicals are part of that church.

For the better part of 600 years Catholicity was defined by Trinitarian beliefs. To be Catholic was to believe in the Trinity. It wasn’t until later that to be Catholic was to be Roman. It wasn’t until the political situations changes and Rome was able to establish itself politically as the “one true church” that Catholic became to mean Under the headship of the Bishop of Rome. Which was much to the chagrin of the Eastern Churches who, because of the political situation, were unable to object at the time. Of course, when the political situation changed they did object. And when the political situation in the West changed again the reformation happened and many western Christians objected to the claim that the Roman church is the Universal/Catholic church.

So while Satan can harm the Universal Church and cause division due to human sinfulness and frailty, he can never overcome the church (the ecclesia).

 

[mcq72]

“The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”.John 3:8

Yes we desire everything in a nice neat little package, using theology and tying in elements to the spuritual.

In Hebrews 6 Paul says “of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands” were foundational . Yet even with this scripture many are divided as to meaning.

 

[mcq72]

Pretty sure John the Apostle refers to it as ceremonial washing.

Much more than that, as I previously posted…Peter used same words as John at Pentecost( except the newly arrived bonus of gifts, but otherwise same words of repent, be baptized, for sin remitting).

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Peter used same words as John at Pentecost

John’s baptism was never in Christ’s name.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

And when the political situation in the West changed again the reformation happened and many western Christians objected to the claim that the Roman church is the Universal/Catholic church.

Many people objected to Jesus’ teaching. Didn’t change the fact that it was truth. The same is true for His Body.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

To say it is speaking only organization that later became based in Rome, became an earthly hierarchical organization, and consolidated it’s power in the middle ages is a stretch

So said Korah when battling Moses. “Hey we are as holy as you. You have no right to exalt yourself over us!”

The Protestant movement coupled the flaws of the medieval Church with heresy. Sound practice is good, but one needs sound teaching, which never came out of the Protestant movement and was a departure from the Apostles.

To say otherwise is to say Jesus failed. Which doesn’t come to a surprise because something done in the name of Jesus doesn’t impart salvation, contrary to the words of Peter, Paul, and Jesus.

 

[hope]

This is all the Bible says.

No it says much more.

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

You are Peter(rock) and upon this rock (Peter) will build my Church. I will give you (Peter) the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
The keys were held by the king who would delegate authority to his steward. Holding the keys was symbolic of power given to him by the king.

It wasn’t until the political situations changes and Rome was able to establish itself politically as the “one true church” that Catholic became to mean Under the headship of the Bishop of Rome.

This is historically inaccurate. I don’t have the time or the inclination to cite all that proves you wrong but you could go to the Founding of Christianity by Warren Carroll. He documents the Pope’s stewardship from the beginning.

 

[lanman87]

This is historically inaccurate.

I’ve read several history books, including those by Catholic historians, that beg to differ. The office of Pope developed over time. All bishops were called Popes started in the late 2nd to early 3rd century. It wasn’t until Pope Gregory the Great that the Pope became the Pope as we now understand it.

 

[lanman87]

So said Korah when battling Moses. “Hey we are as holy as you. You have no right to exalt yourself over us!”

The Pope isn’t Moses.

We are following Galatians 1:8-9 and rejecting a different Gospel that the one delivered to the apostles.

 

[hope]

As I said read Dr. Carroll’s book. He disagrees with you as I do. As we understand Pope today, Peter was the first followed by Linus continuing until today. Yes there were others called Pope that is what has changed in meaning not the office.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

The Pope isn’t Moses

And yet God is the one who inatitued the Papacy, just as he instituted the Levitical priesthood.

We are following Galatians 1:8-9 and rejecting a different Gospel that the one delivered to the apostles.

It is you who have this different Gospel, since you throw away the need to stay faithful to God and separate faith from faithfulness.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

All bishops were called Popes started in the late 2nd to early 3rd century

Not all bishops had the keys. And Pope just means, father. Every bishop is a father to his flock in whatever diocese he is in. But not every bishop was given the role of confirming his brothers.

 

[lanman87]

And yet God is the one who inatitued the Papacy,

It is only a misreading of the Power of the Keys claimed by later bishops of Rome that created the papacy. Not God.

It is you who have this different Gospel, since you throw away the need to stay faithful to God and separate faith from faithfulness.

No we understand the difference between being our hearts being changed and striving to earn something that has already been given to us.

Show me one credible Evangelical who says you don’t have to be faithful? Certainly the ones I listen to never say that.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Not God.

Yeah, so Satan prevailed then. I’m gonna go with the more sensible reading. Jesus gave His authority to Peter and hai successors in a unique way. Acts shows this.

No we understand the difference between being our hearts being changed and striving to earn something that has already been given to us

No, you exluced the role we have to play in keeping this gift and responding to it. Hence why the Psalmist says "If today your hear His voice, harden not your heart " Sure sounds like your heart can grow cold.

 

[hope]

It is only a misreading of the Power of the Keys claimed by later bishops of Rome that created the papacy. Not God.

False statement. The misreading are by those who want to create their own church not Follow Jesus to the Church He established.

 

[mcq72]

John’s baptism was never in Christ’s name.

Correct. Only in the name of the Christ to come, even at hand.

 

[mcq72]

False statement. The misreading are by those who want to create their own church not Follow Jesus to the Church He established.

So said Korah when battling Moses.

Interesting though, folks were just dying, literally, to create there own church, not unlike the folks creating the first church?

Be careful when judging someone who is willing to suffer loss for their convictions, loss at the hands of civil/religious authorities.

On the one hand loss might be righteous judgement such as on Korah. On the other hand it might be loss at the hand of wicked leaders on God’s prophets, as in previous covenant.

“And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.”…Matt. 23:30

Hence why the Psalmist says "If today your hear His voice, harden not your heart " Sure sounds like your heart can grow cold.

Yep, can go both ways, followers not following and leaders not following . To which I have heard that followers are not protected from erring but leaders are. To which another cries out only a self serving leader utters that, for God is an equal opportunity employer, allowing same opportunity to be receive or reject perfect guidance to both follower and leader.

 

[mcq72]

But not every bishop was given the role of confirming his brothers.

Nor was it in the hands of just one bishop even apostle.

just as he instituted the Levitical priesthood.

Oh, you mean plan B ( the better plan A aborted because of sin)?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Interesting though, folks were just dying, literally, to create there own church, not unlike the folks creating the first church?

And everyone could see from the works of the Apostles that they spoke the Truth. Instead, the Reformers acted ruthlessly with regards to dissent.

To which I have heard that followers are not protected from erring but leaders are.

Then you nevwr fully understood infallibility.

Nor was it in the hands of just one bishop even apostle.

No one is told to confirm the brethren. Only Peter is.

Oh, you mean plan B

Still a plan… At the Last Supper we see this plan.

 

[mcq72]

And everyone could see from the works of the Apostles that they spoke the Truth

? like what is everyone ? Only the elect can see the apostles spoke the truth.

Instead, the Reformers acted ruthlessly with regards to dissent.

Yes agree. They learned from the best, theirr predecessors? Actually since Nicaea do we see civil enforcement and consequences.

No one is told to confirm the brethren. Only Peter is.

don’t follow your use of word confirm

Still a plan (B)… At the Last Supper we see this plan.

actually we see the basis for an end to it, being the lesser plan, and moving on to plan A as originally intended with Israel