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lanman87
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As I’ve studied theology over the past few years the more I’ve come to understand that those who do those things are the elect. Who are “chosen before the foundation of the world”.
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lanman87
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@fhansen @Julius_Caesar
BTW- I’m really sad the forums are going away. These conversations have caused me to dig deep into the Bible, the teachings of various theologians, and church history.
BTW- I’m really sad the forums are going away. These conversations have caused me to dig deep into the Bible, the teachings of various theologians, and church history.
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fhansen
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Ok, and a separate but very related matter is in knowing who “we”, the elect, are. The elect are those who end up in heaven, whose names are written in the "Book of Life, that much we know. But we cannot predict our own perseverance, which is why we’re instructed to strive, to persevere, to be vigilant, to be holy plus a whole lot more warnings, encouragements, admonitions, etc, to believers.
We can have a level of assurance, based on God’s mercy, trustworthiness, and desire for all to be saved, combined with fruit observed in our lives, but we cannot, due to human limitations, weakness, ignorance, and sin know with perfect certainty what God, alone, is privy to. Nor can we point to some subjectively self-assessed level or quality of faith as giving us absolute assurance. Scripture tells us that not all who think they’re saved, are saved. Consider the opportunity we have, under grace:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13
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fhansen
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I agree-and I’m grateful for the opportunity to enlighten-I mean, discourse with-folks such as yourself.
Seriously, thank you.
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fhansen
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If you would, consider how the following verses relate to and support each other-and reflect the contingent nature of justification or righteousness within man and therefore of salvation, and the role of grace:
“For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:20
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matt 22:37
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Rom 2:7
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Rom 2:13
And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. Rom 5:5
“But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:20-21
So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Rom 7:12
And so He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Rom 8:4
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:12-13
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom 8:9-10
And then consider how this quote of a 16th century believer might relate:
“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”
We aren’t intended to be unchanged at justification, snow-covered dung-heaps, clean on the outside while filthy within, essentially the same as the white-washed tombs whom Jesus condemned as hypocrites. IOW, righteousness is not imputed, but given, along with the means to confirm and grow it. The essence, the seed of our righteousness is the very communion with God that faith establishes.
“not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9
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lanman87
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This is one Catholic doctrine I totally disagree with. Mainly because the Bible is clear that we can know we have eternal life in 1 John 5:13. John didn’t say I’m writing this so you can hope you have eternal life, or so you can guess if you have eternal life.
The Gospel is good news. If I can believe, serve, and seek God’s Kingdom and Righteousness and not know that I have eternal life, well that is horrible news. I would live in constant fear of dying and going to hell because, no matter what I believe or what I do I can never “know”, I can never have certainty.
But you are right that many who think they are saved really aren’t. They are relying on a religious experience (saying a sinners prayer) or church membership (I was baptized as a baby) or dare I say it, The Sacraments (taking the Sacraments out of obligation instead of faith/love/repentance). As R.C. Sproul once said. “We saved by a possession of faith, not by a profession of faith.”
Dr. Keith Mathison answered the question. How Do I know I’m elect? in the January 2020 edition of Tabletalk magazine when reviewing the Synod of Dort.
"So, how can I know if I am elect? By asking myself whether I have the fruits of election. In other words, by honest self-examination. If I have faith in Christ, if I am sorrowful for my sins and repenting of them, if I am cultivating the fruit of the Spirit and putting to death the deeds of the flesh, I am showing the fruits of election. Election is the invisible cause. Spiritual fruit is the visible effect. We can’t see the cause, but we can observe the effect. In short, we can know we are among the elect if we and others observe the fruits of election in our lives.
If I sin, does that mean I am not elect? Because we remain in this body of death at present, we do not reach a state of sinless perfection in this life (Rom. 7), so we will always be racked with doubt if we assume that being elect means sinless perfection. The fruits of election are not sinless perfection in this life. Jesus taught His disciples to pray “forgive us our sins,” something He would not do if He expected them to reach sinless perfection immediately. We are to be mortifying the flesh, but when we sin, the fruit of election is godly sorrow for sin, genuine repentance. If we repent and confess our sins, He will forgive us (1 John 1:9).
I would add perseverance and discipline to the list of “How we can know we are elect?”. If I stop bearing the fruits of the elect by unbelief or apathy for my sins, and don’t come under the discipline of God (Hebrews 12:8) then I have no claim of election, of being a legitimate child of God.
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Julius_Caesar
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I think you’ve made a strawman. We never spoke of sinless perfection. We only spoke of faithfulness to God’s commands and continuing in a state of grace
Eternal life is to know God and the one He sent Jesus Christ. It is not eternal security.
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Julius_Caesar
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lanman87
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That was quote from the article addressing what causes people to question election. It was written by a Reformed Teacher to Reformed Christians.
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Julius_Caesar
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Notice how the article never spoke of presumption.
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fhansen
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The gospel is not at all good news to the unelected, the reprobate, even though they have no choice in the matter according to Calvinism, for example. Again, humility alone demands a degree of uncertainty in this matter. And if you wish to take 1 John 5:13 woodenly, as more than encouragement and hyperbole, and isolated from so many passages that warn and admonish believers in how they must act to gain or maintain eternal life, that’s you’re option but you’ll be in error. And you’d have to assume that every person who heard those words when they were first written or since then and applied them to themselves individually was/is necessarily saved.
I don’t live in constant fear, but enough to maintain vigilance, knowing, as Paul did, that the game isn’t over, I still must strive and persevere. Jesus’ burden is easy, not non-existent. The error of imputed righteousness is a very serious and anti-gospel error, and fortunately most Christians don’t actually live and behave as if it were true-they know intuitively that what we do counts.
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fhansen
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But, again, absolute assurance of salvation means that we must somehow be able to predict that we’ll persevere to the end.
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lanman87
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I take 1 John 5:13 for what it says, nothing more and nothing less.
But it is supposed to be good news for the elect. That they have been given the gift of grace through faith and eternal life. Not that we may obtain the gift of grace and eternal life by our own effort.
If they were genuine believers, whose hearts were changed from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh and lived by faith, then they could know that they had eternal life and I do assume they were necessarily saved. Else the word of God is lying.
This is a concession that I make. Assurance is for today. If I lose my faith tomorrow then I no longer have assurance. However, as long as I have faith and evidence that my faith is real by repentance, love, and seeking the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, then I can know that if I died today, I have eternal life.
And I believe that infused righteousness is a very serious and anti-gospel error. Because it only makes salvation obtainable what we do, instead of salvation being given to us because of who we are (Chosen, Born again, heart changed, Spirit indwelled, new creations, and adopted children of God).
That is because when God changes who we are, it fundamentally changes what we do as God works in us to change us into His image. Because we are now His children we seek to give Glory to and live obedient lives for Our Heavenly Father. Sanctification is the fruit of Justification, redemption, adoption and all the other changes God makes in us, not only our status before Him but our hearts desire to give Him Glory, show Love to each other and to the world, and share His Gospel message so people will believe and be changed themselves.
Anyway, I’m getting ready for bed. Have a great night.
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Julius_Caesar
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Yet you don’t take 1 Corinthians 9:25-27 for what it says.
Or you read it wrong.
It’s consistent with Paul’s teaching. Imputed righteousness is merely.a credit card, but Christ’s poverty made us rich.
You say the same thing that Augustine said, yet you deny infused righteousness.
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fhansen
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And that’s the problem with the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Some would agree with you based on scripture alone while others disagree but in any case you’ve taken an isolated passage of Scripture and supported a theology around it without regard to the passages that counter or balance it, and without regard to the church that Christ established that, as would be only reasonable and should be expected, did not and does not depend on Scripture alone for its teachings, having received the gospel before a word of the New Testament was written.
And it’s absolutely awful news for the reprobate, who, through no choice of their own have nonetheless been created to experience torment eternally according to that theology. Not much of a God to be following to begin with it seems to me, even if He’s the only game in town. And its kind of like saying, “I’d be offended if Jesus actually made me do something, play some little role, in order to obtain salvation whereas its ok that he doesn’t even give others the chance to be saved at all.”
No, infused righteousness is consistent with passages such as these, where both grace/the Spirit and our cooperation with it/Him are involved:
“…God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.” Rom 5:5
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13
And if we say that the correct behavior on the part of believers will happen and is guaranteed, that would only render such sentiments as expressed in these passages unnecessary, redundant. Another matter of putting the cart ahead of the horse. Such love is both a gift-and a choice.
All right, g’night
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BohemianBrother
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Isn’t this all simply a problem of the soteriological framework (either free will or predestination)? A predestinarian position downplays both the ability and also the responsibility of man, while a free will position elevates both? Isn’t there a similar vein of thought in Catholic predestinarian theologians (maybe using different terms)?
Also, one more question - isn’t the protestant idea of justification vaguely similar to the Catholic concept of being in the state of Grace? Except for the predestinarian Protestant, who could claim that a person can never lose their justification - but then basically say that is just because God will inevitably provide His Grace to the sinner who is a part of the elect, so that they may be saved in the end.
Protestantism of course recognizes infused grace - but we would call the progressive element of salvation sanctification instead of justification.
Also, one more question - isn’t the protestant idea of justification vaguely similar to the Catholic concept of being in the state of Grace? Except for the predestinarian Protestant, who could claim that a person can never lose their justification - but then basically say that is just because God will inevitably provide His Grace to the sinner who is a part of the elect, so that they may be saved in the end.
Protestantism of course recognizes infused grace - but we would call the progressive element of salvation sanctification instead of justification.
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Julius_Caesar
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Every Catholic affirms both.
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lanman87
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We don’t deny infused righteousness. We call it Sanctification, which is the progressive work of God in our lives to change us into His image.
We separate the Act of Justification (which is an act of God), and Sanctification (which is the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit to transform us into the image of God).
From Guy Waters at Ligionier Ministries
Justification is as simple as A-B-C-D . Justification is an act of God. It does not describe the way that God inwardly renews and changes a person. It is, rather, a legal declaration in which God pardons the sinner of all his sins and accepts and accounts the sinner as righteous in His sight. God declares the sinner righteous at the very moment that the sinner puts his trust in Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:21-26, 5:16; 2 Cor. 5:21).
What is the basis of this legal verdict? God justifies the sinner solely on the basis of the obedience and death of His Son, our representative, Jesus Christ. Christ’s perfect obedience and full satisfaction for sin are the only ground upon which God declares the sinner righteous (Rom. 5:18-19; Gal. 3:13; Eph. 1:7; Phil. 2:8). We are not justified by our own works; we are justified solely on the basis of Christ’s work on our behalf. This righteousness is imputed to the sinner. In other words, in justification, God puts the righteousness of His Son onto the sinner’s account. Just as my sins were transferred to, or laid upon, Christ at the cross, so also His righteousness is reckoned to me (2 Cor. 5:21).
By what means is the sinner justified? Sinners are justified through faith alone when they confess their trust in Christ. We are not justified because of any good that we have done, are doing, or will do. Faith is the only instrument of justification. Faith adds nothing to what Christ has done for us in justification. Faith merely receives the righteousness of Jesus Christ offered in the gospel (Rom. 4:4-5).
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lanman87
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Continued from above
Finally, saving faith must demonstrate itself to be the genuine article by producing good works. It is possible to profess saving faith but not possess saving faith (James 2:14-25). What distinguishes true faith from a mere claim to faith is the presence of good works (Gal. 5:6). We are in no way justified by our good works. But no one may consider himself to be a justified person unless he sees in his life the fruit and evidence of justifying faith; that is, good works.
Both justification and sanctification are graces of the gospel; they always accompany one another; and they deal with the sinner’s sin. But they differ in some important ways. First, whereas justification addresses the guilt of our sin, sanctification addresses the dominion and corruption of sin in our lives. Justification is God’s declaring the sinner righteous; sanctification is God’s renewing and transforming our whole persons—our minds, wills, affections, and behaviors. United to Jesus Christ in His death and resurrection and indwelt by the Spirit of Christ, we are dead to the reign of sin and alive to righteousness (Rom. 6:1-23; 8:1-11). We therefore are obligated to put sin to death and to present our “members to God as instruments for righteousness” (6:13; see 8:13).…
Christ has won both justification and sanctification for His people. Both graces are the concern of faith in Jesus Christ, but in different ways. In justification, our faith results in our being forgiven, accepted, and accounted righteous in God’s sight. In sanctification, that same faith actively and eagerly takes up all the commands that Christ has given the believer. We dare not separate or conflate justification and sanctification. We do distinguish them. And, in both graces, we enter into the richness and joy of communion with Christ through faith in Him.
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lanman87
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But we aren’t talking about the reprobate, we are talking about the elect. The Gospel is good new for all who believe. It is not okay news or could be great news, it is the greatest news ever. That Christ died for me and offers me forgiveness of sins, a relationship with God, and eternal life is the greatest thing ever. And all are a free gift that I don’t deserve and don’t have to work to receive. I don’t have to convince God that I’m worthy, I don’t have to balance any scales of good over bad, it is not a scholarship to heaven that I might get if I make good enough on “the test”. I rest in Christ who is worthy, who did all good and none bad, and who sits at the right hand of God. It is His work of living a perfect life and being the perfect and forever sacrifice and overcoming death that allows any of us to be saved. He did the work and we get the benefits.
But it doesn’t end there. Because I get the benefits and enjoy a relationship with God through Jesus is makes me want to love God and Love others and live my life in such a way to bring Glory to my Father. I want to please my Father who gave up His only Son for me. I want to help people and share the Good News of the Gospel so that people will come to faith. I want to help the poor and persecuted because the Love of God is manifest in me through the power of the Holy Spirit. Not because I want to merit grace but because I’ve been overwhelmed with grace.
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