Lost Catholic Faith

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

I think there’s a level of devotion that should probably be left alone. Folks that have “drunk so much of the kool-aide” that they can’t see it any other way are likely beyond rational dialogue and to dislodge them from this deeply held position would probably be damaging to their person in a way that is greater than any benefit to be gained.

In fairness, those people shouldn’t expose themselves to an environment that’s critical of their beliefs. But then I still don’t want to contribute to a crisis of meaning in their lives.

A world without critical thinking…that would be my definition of “hell”

Not what I meant.

When someone is so entrenched in an ideology that their very identity in intertwined in it, you send them to hell when you convince them it’s bullspit.

That’s a dangerous and usually pointless thing to do.

 

[laylow]

Not what I meant.

When someone is so entrenched in an ideology that their very identity in intertwined in it, you send them to hell when you convince them it’s bullspit.

That’s a dangerous and usually pointless thing to do.

I understand what you meant, I think. I guess my point is that people with that mentality are already in “hell” or at least a totalitarian dictatorship akin to North Korea.

 

[Vonsalza]

Just as the Messianic line of Jesus, the Apostolic
line of Popes from Peter is valid, messy in some parts tho it
is, I believe firmly in the Apostolic Succession of
the Holy Orders of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Roman Church recognizes the validity of Orthodox succession, unless they’ve changed their minds recently.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Not what I meant.

When someone is so entrenched in an ideology that their very identity in intertwined in it, you send them to hell when you convince them it’s bullspit.

That’s a dangerous and usually pointless thing to do.

I understand what you meant, I think. I guess my point is that people with that mentality are already in “hell” or at least a totalitarian dictatorship akin to North Korea.

Nooo. there’s comfort in it.

Tribe.

 

[laylow]

Nooo. there’s comfort in it.

Tribe.

I agree that there is. I don’t agree that there should be though. But it is similar to a victim of domestic abuse. The victim defends their abuser, paradoxically.

 

[PJM]

That’s an interesting opinion.

Was it part of God’s Plan for contraception to come about?

Do you assume that God will give you the ability to support as many children as you can have? Or is there such a thing as having too many?

No: God did not and does not approve of artificial contraception.

WHY do YOU suppose that God created women {and we thank God that He did } with a fertile and a NONE-fertile time period?

anyone over the age of 12 {these days} knows that not every sexual encounter between a man and a women results in a pregnancy. Can that be coincidental? No! THAT my friend is God’s designed plan for Birth Control. He did’t over look the need; it’s simply ignored as being “too inconvenient.”

I wonder just how compelling GOD will find that excuse at the Judgment?

Christ Easter Blessings,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

My FRIEND, if you knew God as well as you seem to think you do; you’d agree with God’s position.

LIFE is a thee GOD TEST {Isaiah 43:7 &21}

God is among many other things; PERFECT; which mean’s that HIS PLAN works. It’s humans who don’t follow it that …

Blessings and thanks for responding!
Patrick

 

[Raxus]

I have the benefit of my local priest being an extremely empathetic man who told me point-blank that the Church’s position on it is anachronistic and needs to change.

NFP has a better success rate than contraception. Is there a reason y’all haven’t given that a try?

 

[Raxus]

If we had any more kids when we were a bit younger, we’d have certainly had a nervous breakdown or divorce or some stress-fueled major household event - no exaggeration. #2 and #3 both have issues and a fourth would have broken us in some way.

If this statement is 100% true, wouldn’t it logically mean that the love you and your wife have for each other is contingent, rather than absolute?

 

[Vonsalza]

NFP has a better success rate than contraception.

When studied by non-Catholics, no. It really doesn’t.

Is there a reason y’all haven’t given that a try?

See above.

If this statement is 100% true, wouldn’t it logically mean that the love you and your wife have for each other is contingent, rather than absolute?

Probably. And I’m fine with that.
For example, if I frequently abused my wife, I’d completely understand a loss of “the love she has for me”.

 

[feed_me]

Have you talked to your doctor about seeing if you can have kids or cant by doing a medical test, maybe they should be able to tell her if she is fertal or barren.

 

[Vonsalza]

He and his wife don’t want any more children. What test were you thinking of?

Yeah, I was just gonna let it slide.

 

[feed_me]

I get that, but there are tests that do tell the heath of a womb and eggs. and he can do an adoption agency to find the best parents for the kid if he has more. Lots of people want kids and cant have any.

 

[Raxus]

When studied by non-Catholics, no. It really doesn’t.

Yes they are, if followed correctly. I realize it’s a bit of a sacrifice in this day and age, though, asking people to do something they might not want to. The poor lil’ dears.

Probably. And I’m fine with that.

Well, I’ll give you points for consistency there. I don’t hear many vows that go “I promise to love you unless something happens where I don’t anymore”, myself.

For example, if I frequently abused my wife, I’d completely understand a loss of “the love she has for me”.

I’d say that’s a little different than the stress scenario you presented above. Nobody should stay in an abusive situation.

 

[Vonsalza]

Yes they are, if followed correctly.

Objectively, factually false. But whatevs.

I realize it’s a bit of a sacrifice in this day and age, though, asking people to do something they might not want to. The poor lil’ dears.

Amen!
Enjoy the hair shirt and cilice you surely use.

C’mon guys. Suffering for suffering’s sake is a pretty awful selling point… For anything. Religion included.

Well, I’ll give you points for consistency there. I don’t hear many vows that go “I promise to love you unless something happens where I don’t anymore”, myself.

I’m just a realist on that.

I bet you my evening beer that your marriage - and if you’re not married, then your parent’s marriage - is similarly conditional even though we don’t say it.

I’d say that’s a little different than the stress scenario you presented above. Nobody should stay in an abusive situation.

Well, at least you can see it’s not absolute…

 

[feed_me]

To know weither or not he can or cant have them, if he can give to adoption but dont get pregnant just to give to adoption, if he cant, ports open and fire away. The point is is there is always a way to be provided for or to provide.

 

[Raxus]

Objectively, factually false. But whatevs.

Got some proof?

Amen!

Enjoy the hair shirt and cilice you surely use.

Opus Dei-yum! Sick burn. Perhaps you shouldn’t assume that I’m some sort of cloistered monk anymore than I assume that you’re some sort of sin-laden hedonist?

C’mon guys. Suffering for suffering’s sake is a pretty awful selling point… For anything. Religion included.

Why is using NFP “suffering for suffering’s sake”?

I’m just a realist on that.

How romantic. (Not to mention being a false dichotomy.)

I bet you my evening beer that your marriage - and if you’re not married, then your parent’s marriage - is similarly conditional even though we don’t say it.

You’d only bet a beer? That’s a glowing endorsement of confidence in your position, right there.

Well, at least you can see it’s not absolute…

They’re not remotely comparable. Logic would dictate that trying to say they are is a little silly.

 

[TC3033]

Vonsalza:

I have the benefit of my local priest being an extremely empathetic man who told me point-blank that the Church’s position on it is anachronistic and needs to change.

NFP has a better success rate than contraception. Is there a reason y’all haven’t given that a try?

Wow, really? I wasn’t aware.

Can you provide the studies? I’d really love to review them.

 

[Vonsalza]

Got some proof?

A pretty good meta-article that cross cites most NFP sources;
Natural Family Planning Methods Can Work, But They Take a Big Commitment

Cites that “According to Contraceptive Technology, those who used FAB methods correctly and consistently saw failure rates between 0.4 and 5 percent. Under typical use, however, the failure rates are between 12 and 24 percent depending on the specific FAB method”

Why is using NFP “suffering for suffering’s sake”?

I was referring to your quip “I realize it’s a bit of a sacrifice in this day and age, though, asking people to do something they might not want to. The poor lil’ dears.”

Some would expect that most folks would resist doing something they don’t particularly want to do as a matter of regular human behavior.

How romantic. (Not to mention being a false dichotomy.)

I don’t see the dichotomy. Care to point it out?

You’d only bet a beer? That’s a glowing endorsement of confidence in your position, right there.

And rhetorical tactics like that do much of the same.

They’re not remotely comparable. Logic would dictate that trying to say they are is a little silly.

Logic would dictate that you insinuated an absolute and then gave an obvious exception. That means it’s not an “absolute”.

Sorry. I guess.

 

[Vonsalza]

Raxus:

Vonsalza:

I have the benefit of my local priest being an extremely empathetic man who told me point-blank that the Church’s position on it is anachronistic and needs to change.

NFP has a better success rate than contraception. Is there a reason y’all haven’t given that a try?

Wow, really? I wasn’t aware.

Can you provide the studies? I’d really love to review them.

Same here.