LOST season 6

[Maeglin]

I considered whether or not the mother could be the smoke monster, but the fact that she had a body and she was bleeding when stabbed led me to believe other wise. Remember back when sayid stabbed MIB, there was no blood because it was not an actual body.

I think MIB by entering the light took some of it into himself thereby dimming the light. The mother makes a point of saying its the warmest light they could imagine, but in season 4 when ben turns the wheel under the orchid, we see that a light is still there, but its freezing cold down there with ice forming on the wheel.

That’s a good point. I’m not sure what to believe though. Fake Locke can’t be hurt either, but Dogan seemed to think that the Roman dagger could kill him. Now its quite likely that Dogan was just trying to send zombie Sayid on a suicide mission, but its also possible that Dogan had reason to think it would work. We don’t understand the rules, so its hard to say what is possible.

Fake Locke may also be a different phenomena. Smoke monster is locked in his body. This is not the same as Smoke Monster/MIB who can seemingly change forms and copy different people. That may be why Fake Locke didn’t bleed.

 

[Dandelion_Wine]

These are pretty enlightening interviews:
Interview 1 - Commenting on the fan rejection of “Across the Sea”
Interview 2 - Commenting on how Lost was planned and written over the years

Thanks for the links Maeglin. I went on quite the rabbit trail going from one link to another. I just read one there where I walked away thinking Cuse & Lindelof are a bunch of jags. They were basically like “this is our story, so shut the heck up.” Which is fine. It is their story, but they’re making a ton of cash & it’s because of their fan base - so why don’t you treat us w/ a little respect? Jerks.

With that said - back to being a LOSTie.

Re; the dagger. My wife and I were talking about that. The whole deal seemed to be using the dagger but before the person speaks. Sayid failed cuz Locke said hello. MIB ambushed his mother and killed her. MIB told Richard to kill Jacob before he spoke. But BEN KILLS JACOB after they have quite the conversation. What’s that about?

 

[Maeglin]

Thanks for the links Maeglin. I went on quite the rabbit trail going from one link to another. I just read one there where I walked away thinking Cuse & Lindelof are a bunch of jags. They were basically like “this is our story, so shut the heck up.” Which is fine. It is their story, but they’re making a ton of cash & it’s because of their fan base - so why don’t you treat us w/ a little respect? Jerks.

You could tell Lindeloff/Cuse are royally peeved by the near universal nerd rage for “Across the Sea” on the Lost boards. I’d tell you to check out those threads, but its very depressing. I for one, actually really enjoyed “Across the Sea”.

Lindeloff/Cuse did take the low road though in those interviews. They need to thicken their skin - especially given that the finale is bound to disappoint some people (and if the finale is bad, long time Lost fans will think the entire show has been poisoned).

 

[Joe_5859]

Cool quote of the day:

That is a pretty cool quote. It is sort of interesting that audience reaction from LOST fans themselves is bearing out one of the central themes of the show.

I can’t wait for the finale, although I am a bit sad we won’t likely get many of the remaining mysteries answered.

I hear you. I definitely understand why they simply can’t answer all the questions. As they said, it would make things too “didactic”. The story would give way to lengthy exposition and pontificating that would feel forced.

You could tell Lindeloff/Cuse are royally peeved by the near universal nerd rage for “Across the Sea” on the Lost boards. I’d tell you to check out those threads, but its very depressing. I for one, actually really enjoyed “Across the Sea”.

I had absolutely no idea that there was such a backlash from this past episode. I’m with you, I really liked it. Maybe I’m just easy to please.

This does make me feel even more optimistic about the finale, though. If I liked this episode, then chances are I’ll like the way it all comes together.

I think the point they made is a good one, though: it’s easy for people to say what they don’t want to happen, but much more difficult to say what they do want to happen. Even this late in the game, I have no idea how I’d reconcile the two timelines if I were the one making the calls.

 

[_L]

admittedly i hated across the sea at first, but upon rewatching it, its come to be one of my favorite episodes. I think people were so mad about it because they feel it completely turns the tables on the perceptions of the island, jacob, mib and so on so late in the game. we learn the MIB isnt exactly pure evil, and jacob isnt exactly pure good, and i think that upset alot of people including myself who rather liked the black and white clear distinction between the two sides. but imo, no one cares more about the show than damon and carlton so i trust them to finish out the show in a great way.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

we learn the MIB isnt exactly pure evil, and jacob isnt exactly pure good,.

L,

Have you been following this thread and my “Jacob is evil” campaign? Are you saying that people need to apologize to me now and admit they might have been wrong?

Or do we need to wait until the next couple of episodes to make sure?

VC

 

[Maeglin]

You may have hit on the reason for fan disappointment, L. I never had expectations that Jacob was entirely innocent and MIB entirely bad before this episode. Maybe that’s why I enjoyed ATC and wasn’t enraged by it: I didn’t feel cheated.

However, I would have been disappointed if both characters came across as entirely amoral (neither good or bad). In my opinion, Jacob is still the good guy. He did some bad things, but repented and is trying to do the right thing. MIB is still the bad guy. He had reasons to be angry (and those reasons keep him from being a 2-D cardboard cutout of a villain), but he uses everyone around him for selfish motives and has never repented of his actions. All he wants is to escape the Island, whatever the cost in blood. MIB is evil.

If the finale shows that Jacob is truly a bad guy as VC maintains and is no better then MIB, then I will be let down. I hope Jacob isn’t bringing people to the Island to be mowed down for no other reason then to play a game with his brother.

If this happens, I won’t hate the show (the ride has been too enjoyable), but I’ll be disappointed that Cuse/Lindeloff copped out on the good vs. evil theme that permeates the show. All that Catholic imagery and all those moments of redemption (like Ben repenting for killing Jacob) shouldn’t be squandered for nothing.

And yes, VC I’ll eat my crow if you are right.

 

[Dandelion_Wine]

It’s too bad that Cuse & Lindelof, instead of taking the low road, don’t have a 2 hr show, say in like 2 weeks, where they get an audience together where people can just ask questions.

 

[Maeglin]

I think they are planning on doing this on Jimmy Kimmel Live the night “The End” airs. They have stated that after that last interview, they will go into hiding and refuse to answer any more questions. They want the work to stand on its own (paraphrasing from previous interviews).

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Maeglin,

I don’t think the good v. evil motif will be abandoned or could be. But I think there might be another way of looking at it.

To me it seems that every character, everything, even every event, even each universe somehow wants to be classified as good or bad. I think the overall arc of the writing is to force that idea. The writers want us to “make lists” of who and what is good and bad.

But, it seems consistently, the undercurrent has always been that no one was good or bad. There was an admixture in everyone, in everyone’s motives, in all their background stories, in all their choices made on and off the island.

I recall early on – season 1 or 2 – when the others were clearly the “Bad guys” someone counted up all the bad things people did (killing, assaulting, etc) and the result was that the Losties had done far more questionable things than the others. Then we met Juliet, and the other’s little suburbia (a book club!) and the idea that the others were pure evil just melted away. It was more complex than that.

But still – the writing pushes us toward classifying things. And yet there is that undercurrent of murkiness, of mixed motives.

Then we have the big reveal of the “man in white” and the “man in black.” Finally! A collective sigh of relief goes up from the viewers. Finally a clear demarcation of Good and Evil.

But what if it isn’t that way? What if like the rest, Jacob and MiB turn out not to be one or the other? What if the whole good/bad black/white duality applies not to them as a pair but to them individually, just like it applied not the the “losties” and the “others” as a pair, but to them each individually? (And notice that Jacob and MiB fall for it too. MiB thinks everyone is bad, and Jacob thinks everyone is good.)

That might be the point of the whole story.

VC

 

[Maeglin]

VC, I understand what you are saying. And you give a very plausible view of the show.

I agree that everything can’t be straight black and white in regard to an individual’s character. I don’t want Lost’s overarching characters to degenerate into pure good guys vs. pure bad guys. That’s not reality. But I do want to see a triumph of good over evil. I want to see characters who have been bad redeem themselves. I want to see Ben sobbing in front of Illana for the evil he did to Jacob and for allowing his daughter to die in blind faith (not because he really loved virtue and was sacrificing her for the right reason and because of love of power over the Island). I want to see Jacob learning from the mistake of hurting his brother and spending the next 2000 years orchestrating the salvation of mankind in penance. I want to see Kate repent for what she did to her father. I want to see Jack become the man of faith and overcome the damage Christian did to his spirit.

On the flip side, I want to see certain characters going down the rabbit hole into evil (because people can lose their redemption). I want to see MiB consumed in rage to the point that he will do anything, even endanger the world, to get free. I want to see Claire abandon her friends in anger over her abandonment.

I also want to see certain characters take the middle road, and end up being lost because they could not commit to either side when the battle lines were finally drawn.

Overall, I don’t want to lose the overarching theme of good vs. evil. You present a way of looking at things that is very similar to what I think. But I personally hope Jacob is good and has spent his life on the Island in an attempt to redeem himself and spare the world. I want to see that some characters actually learn from their mistakes and embrace the light. Others may start out good, but end up embracing the darkness.

I just don’t want to see any wishy-washy, post modern, amoral, no-one-is-really-good-or-evil-in-the-end message. Neither do I want to see Jacob as evil when he and MIB are the two driving forces on the Island.

 

[Contarini]

L,

Have you been following this thread and my “Jacob is evil” campaign? Are you saying that people need to apologize to me now and admit they might have been wrong?

There’s a big difference between “Jacob isn’t pure good” and “Jacob is evil.”

Edwin

 

[Verbum_Caro]

There’s a big difference between “Jacob isn’t pure good” and “Jacob is evil.”

Edwin, I guess we’ll see just how big a difference there is in those two statements.

I’ll stick by my “Jacob is evil” campaign. When near omnipotent actors aren’t pure good, and use people as means even to good ends, then I think a strong case can be made for calling them evil – i.e. something over and above our mortal struggles between being good and bad.

Remember Jacob isn’t just another guy on the island. His peccadilloes wreck ships and crash planes!

VC

 

[irishpatrick]

Edwin, I guess we’ll see just how big a difference there is in those two statements.

I’ll stick by my “Jacob is evil” campaign. When near omnipotent actors aren’t pure good, and use people as means even to good ends, then I think a strong case can be made for calling them evil – i.e. something over and above our mortal struggles between being good and bad.

Remember Jacob isn’t just another guy on the island. His peccadilloes wreck ships and crash planes!

VC

Does that mean we are all evil?

 

[Joe_5859]

By this time next week, the Lost finale will have already aired. I can’t believe “The End” is so near!

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Does that mean we are all evil?

Patrick, you know the old spider-man saw – “with great power comes great responsibility”.

My point is that most seemed (perhaps not anymore!) to have wanted to label MiB the bad guy and Jacob the good guy. However you want to label it, my take has been that Jacob is a bad guy. And I don’t mean “mostly good” and “a little bad”. I mean he’s a bad guy because of the magnitude of harm he causes, and the treating of people as means to an end.

The good motives he might have for everything he does don’t make him a good guy, I don’t think.

And, I think this is going to be part of the story.

But – we will see!

VC

 

[Dandelion_Wine]

I had a couple more rambling thoughts today -

1. There’s been a hub-bub about Jacob putting the candidates on their paths of destruction. What if it’s more like a “Wayne’s World” kind of thing. Due to the whole time difference between the island & reality and Jacob using that light tower to watch them, what if Jacob’s goal was to ‘touch’ each candidate to ‘candidize’ them and that was it? So for instance, Jacob already knows the path that Sawyer is going to go down, so him giving him a pen just enables him to touch Sawyer. Same with Kate, he told her not to steal anymore (quite different than putting her on a path) and touched her then as well?
2. “The island chooses whom it will” - although it’s hard to say what the truth is in all the information, it seems like, especially early on, Locke was the man of faith in the island and it seemed like a theme. So perhaps the island ‘chose’ Jacob even though his mom wanted the MIB?

 

[Contarini]

Patrick, you know the old spider-man saw – “with great power comes great responsibility”.

My point is that most seemed (perhaps not anymore!) to have wanted to label MiB the bad guy and Jacob the good guy. However you want to label it, my take has been that Jacob is a bad guy. And I don’t mean “mostly good” and “a little bad”. I mean he’s a bad guy because of the magnitude of harm he causes, and the treating of people as means to an end.

The good motives he might have for everything he does don’t make him a good guy, I don’t think.

And, I think this is going to be part of the story.

But – we will see!

VC

You may be right. I suspect, though, that the show reflects a more “consequentialist” approach to ethics than you or I would be comfortable with. So you may be right that in the final analysis Jacob is evil by orthodox Christian standards.

Of course, that raises the question of how we view Divine Providence and how God is different from Jacob. Because He doesn’t make mistakes (which is really still a consequentialist approach)? Because He’s God and has the right to cause disasters? Or because He actually doesn’t work like that at all?

I admit that I basically like Jacob and want him to be a good guy. But that may just indicate that I’m easily manipulated by the show, and that leaves open the question of whether the show’s creators are manipulating viewers in that way in order to pull the rug out from under us or because they genuinely think of Jacob as a good (or mostly good) guy, even if you are right that he is not in any way good by orthodox Christian standards.

Edwin

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Good points Edwin.

It leads into the “theodicy” of Lost, or rather, the “Jacodicy”?

The consequentialism approach seems present quite often – think Widmore’s use of Desmond, or Jack slicing Ben’s poison sac (I don’t recall what he sliced, but I assume Ben has an internal poison sac).

VC

 

[irishpatrick]

Patrick, you know the old spider-man saw – “with great power comes great responsibility”.

My point is that most seemed (perhaps not anymore!) to have wanted to label MiB the bad guy and Jacob the good guy. However you want to label it, my take has been that Jacob is a bad guy. And I don’t mean “mostly good” and “a little bad”. I mean he’s a bad guy because of the magnitude of harm he causes, and the treating of people as means to an end.

The good motives he might have for everything he does don’t make him a good guy, I don’t think.

And, I think this is going to be part of the story.

But – we will see!

VC

Difficult to say before we know the ending. However, if MiB is basically pure evil and will destroy the entire planet if released from the island, than Jacob’s actions become to some degree understandable. Harm a few to save billions, etc.