Loud children at Mass. thoughts?

[Carmelite1983]

Your parish has young families? What a blessing.

I tend to love the sound of children.

We do too, we just don’t like when we can’t her ANY of the liturgy.
It’s truly distracting, not like the average banter of a child, but like I’m in a chuckie cheese.

 

[Edward_H]

My thinking is that the parents of the children need to answer to themselves (and to God)…is letting them to continue to cry/wail the most charitable and heroic act I can do at this moment?

Is it charitable to the child?
Is it charitable to the people near me?
Is it charitable to father who is struggling to say Mass?

Is it the most charitable and heroically self-giving thing I can do now, to let my child continue to cry, and I sit there with him/her?

If they can answer yes, then that’s the right answer.

 

[babochka]

My thinking is that the parents of the children need to answer to themselves (and to God)…is letting them to continue to cry/wail the most charitable and heroic act I can do at this moment?

Is it charitable to the child?
Is it charitable to the people near me?
Is it charitable to father who is struggling to say Mass?

Is it the most charitable and heroically self-giving thing I can do now, to let my child continue to cry, and I sit there with him/her?

If they can answer yes, then that’s the right answer.

I think that is a reasonable perspective, but the answer to these questions will vary. Levels of sensitivity vary. I once knew an elderly priest who struggled with losing his place in Mass. A coughing person, a wailing siren, or a loudly closing door might distract him to the point where he would visibly struggle to recover. These problems eventually forced his retirement. With this particular priest, I would take my baby out at the slightest peep. In fact, although I loved this priest dearly, I would try to avoid going to a Mass said by this priest if I was bringing a baby. Since I also suffer from a chronic cough, I would exit the church the minute I felt a coughing fit coming on. By contrast, I once had a (happily) noisy toddler at church with another priest. She was chattering and giggling throughout the Divine Liturgy. I was shushing her and trying to help her be quiet, with mediocre results. I was on the fence, but every time I was ready to give it up and take her outside for a few minutes, she would quiet down, so we persevered. (This was at a parish with a rather high tolerance for child noise. In some other parishes, I’d have made a different decision.) After the liturgy, I apologized to Father for her chatter, worried that she had been bothersome. His response was, “Oh, was that yours? I thought it was one of mine.”

Parish culture varies and priest tolerance varies. Each of these has to be taken into consideration when a parent makes a call as to what to do.

 

[babochka]

Carmelite1983:

Loud children at Mass. thoughts?

And even among Christians, it doesn’t seem to be difficult for the Oriental and Eastern orthodox, at whose services I’ve never observed any rowdy children. It’s only at the RC Mass or modern protestant services that you get loud, unruly kids. And it’s only among Roman Catholics and modern protestants that a discussion such as the one in this thread can even arise. It seems to me that compared to the adherents of these other religions, modern Christians have a fundamentally different sense of what’s appropriate during worship. They also seem to have much more difficulty controlling their children and making simple, sane decisions as to whether or not to bring a particular child to service or not.

I’m a bit amused by this, which shows a short and narrow view of history. How are you so are so sure that this is strictly a modern problem, exclusive to today’s crop of young, clueless and thoughtless parents?

I wanted to share a story from a book, A Milltown Pastor. If you have a chance to read it all, it is an enjoyable way to spend a couple of hours. This book was published in 1921, well after the death of its subject, Father Coffey. Even back then, children were brought to church. Even back then, they could be noisy and distracting.

A Mill Town Pastor

books.google.com

During one of his sermons, a baby became restless and began to cry. The crying grew in volume until it filled the church and it became plain that either Father Coffey or the baby would have to stop.

“There are two of us preaching in this church at once,” said he, “and I don’t know which of us is giving the better sermon. When a baby cries in church, he is telling us two things. First, that there are babies in the family; and second, that the mother has come to Mass with her baby. On the whole, I think the baby is preaching the better sermon and I’ll let him get on with it. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen.” And he continued the Mass.

 

[PetraG]

I’m a bit amused by this, which shows a short and narrow view of history. How are you so are so sure that this is strictly a modern problem, exclusive to today’s crop of young, clueless and thoughtless parents?

I wanted to share a story from a book, A Milltown Pastor. If you have a chance to read it all, it is an enjoyable way to spend a couple of hours. This book was published in 1921, well after the death of its subject, Father Coffey. Even back then, children were brought to church. Even back then, they could be noisy and distracting.

A Mill Town Pastor: The Story of a Witty and Valiant Priest - Joseph P. Conroy - Google Books

That’s a single baby on a single Sunday.

I have a hard time believing that the OP, who works at a parish school, is particularly sensitive to noise. I don’t think the OP is describing one or two families with children who cannot be contained.

When I was growing up, parents with very young children took aisle seats or seats in the back. The back two pews were even reserved for families with small children. If a child made enough noise to make it difficult to hear the homily, the parent took the child and left and came back when the child quieted down (if the child quieted down). What people won’t deal with now is that Father would stop the homily and wait for that to happen if the noise got to be too loud for too long. That is now deemed to be too shaming. No, everybody’s kid did it from time to time. Still, there are people who would use the expectation that they give some protection to other people’s ability to hear at least the homily as an excuse to stay home from Mass or even to leave the Church in a huff.

At our house, there was definitely an age at which you were deemed old enough that you would NEVER be that child…not just that you wouldn’t be making noise, but that you wouldn’t be, oh, just quietly sticking your leg out into the aisle so that your best friend in another pew could get a good look at your new fancy lace hosiery. (As a theoretical example…)

Since homilists cannot just stop their homily when the noise level gets too high and wait to continue until the noise dies down, I don’t know what can be done in places where parents don’t self-police. I’d say pretty much nothing. If you can find a Mass where this isn’t a problem, you go to that and you feel lucky you have that option, I guess.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Since homilists cannot just stop their homily when the noise level gets too high and wait to continue until the noise dies dow

They cannot? I’ve witnessed homilists do just this on more occasions than I can count!

 

[PetraG]

They cannot? I’ve witnessed homilists do just this on more occasions than I can count!

Well, I think that is about all that can be done about it, whether you’re in Mass or in a concert hall or at a community theater. Either those trying to be heard don’t tolerate it or they do tolerate it and everyone else does, too. There isn’t much that anyone in the congregation can do that has much chance of doing anything other than offending someone.

 

[CelticWarlord]

I very much understand your frustration as noisy children irritate me wherever I find them. My own kids were all I could handle. Someone else’s not so much, if at all. There are almost always noisy kids at Mass but it’s the ones who are allowed to run up and down the aisle and wander into the pews who distract me most. If I didn’t enjoy the liturgy so much I would leave, and did on one occasion. I can only be distracted for so long before I feel there’s nothing to be gained from enduring it any longer.

I realize this is not offering you a solution. I’m just sympathizing.

Worse than raucous children, though, are the constantly ringing cel phones, especially the ones owned by people who will answer them right there in the pew.

 

[Carmelite1983]

I realize this is not offering you a solution. I’m just sympathizing.

I appreciate it. Truly

 

[Viki63]

I have the worst of both worlds - I’m over 70, and I’ve learned that many older adults are bothered by ambient noise, including me, so it’s harder to hear than it used to be.
And I often take my almost 5 year old grandson to church. because he wants to go and I’m the only one who can take him. He’s often pretty good, but if he starts getting defiant or rowdy, we will go out for a break, and he’ll get a spanking.
When other kids make noise, I just pray through it. But if someone’s child was jumping or climbing on or near me, and it’s not in the middle of the consecration, I would fix him with a steely gaze and say, aloud, “Stop that.” It usually works.

 

[crenfro]

Hello.

I think we all need to be as considerate of each other as we can, especially at Mass. People of all ages go to Mass, not only children. I think a Pastor needs to minister to his entire flock, not just the youngsters. We’re all a lot cuter when we’re kids, but cuteness shouldn’t be the main priority.

Is loving your neighbor the 1st consideration here? I do know that at Mass that we need to be reverent, too. Is this a priority where you are?

Jesus wants the little children to come to Him, for sure, but from what I’ve been told He wants all of us.

Just some random thoughts.

 

[TheLittleLady]

It may be God is calling you to begin a nursery ministry at your parish.

 

[babochka]

(crenfro, I apologize. I’m not sure how this got directed to you.)

What puzzles me is that this problem – and I do consider it a problem – only exists in modern Christian churches. Why is it that the hindus, buddhists, muslims, sikhs, jains, etc., all manage to keep their children in check during their services (or not bring them), and that for Christians this is somehow difficult? And even among Christians, it doesn’t seem to be difficult for the Oriental and Eastern orthodox, at whose services I’ve never observed any rowdy children. It’s only at the RC Mass or modern protestant services that you get loud, unruly kids. And it’s only among Roman Catholics and modern protestants that a discussion such as the one in this thread can even arise. It seems to me that compared to the adherents of these other religions, modern Christians have a fundamentally different sense of what’s appropriate during worship. They also seem to have much more difficulty controlling their children and making simple, sane decisions as to whether or not to bring a particular child to service or not.

You mention that other faiths don’t have this problem. This problem is as ancient and universal as parenting itself.

Here is an article from this year in the Saudi Gazette:

When children are a sourceof distraction in mosques

Hatoon Alkharashi, a Saudi mother of two, said there were some children who usually come to her mosque and play while they performed the prayer. They always make a lot of noise, but we could understand that children can’t sit still and keep silent for long durations, she said.

saudigazette.com.sa

Here is a letter from an OCA (Orthodox) bishop addressing the issue: Children and the Divine Liturgy - Orthodox Church in America

And another Orthodox perspective: http://wilmingtonoca.org/education/children-in-the-church
This priest has some good suggestions for people without children, including:

• If you observe something that is troubling or concerning in regards to a child’s behavior in church, bring it to the priest in charge. Don’t speak about it (specifically or generically) to anyone else – this is gossip, and sinful.
• When the commotion gets to be “too much,” consider relocating yourself to another area, quietly and discretely, so that you may focus your attention. Please remember that it is never appropriate to complain that you cannot “worship” because of distractions – we can worship, giving thanks to God, in any situation, especially if we are guests in His house. To say, “I can’t worship because of the children,” is something we should never let slip from our lips.

And another: Young Children in the Church - Orthodox Canada
The last sentence of the answer to the complaint about noisy children is “May I never have to serve the Liturgy without hearing the “squirming” and “moving about” of the children. The noise they make in church is like the ringing of silver and golden bells, or the rustle of the wings of angels. I’m sorry if it disturbs you, but I look forward to it with joy and it makes my heart sing.”

 

[PetraG]

And another: http://orthodoxcanada.org/qa_archives/question3.html
The last sentence of the answer to the complaint about noisy children is “May I never have to serve the Liturgy without hearing the “squirming” and “moving about” of the children. The noise they make in church is like the ringing of silver and golden bells, or the rustle of the wings of angels. I’m sorry if it disturbs you, but I look forward to it with joy and it makes my heart sing.”

OK, but he also says, “They should only be taken out of the services briefly if they are causing chaos or havoc.”
We’re not suggesting children ought to be sat on so they don’t make a peep for all of Mass. The OP wrote that these children “even yell incessantly” or “play with loud toys.” Why on earth are parents allowing their children to bring toys that make noise into church in the first place?

The OP also heard the priest telling a child whose mother had done nothing to quite him to “keep being loud.” OK, some 3 year olds are just loud, but why would you tell a 3 year old that? When the parishioner asked the priest about the next day, the priest said he “feels bad when mothers get ‘the stink eye from parishioners’ when their kids are loud.” Well, fine, the high-five is great, but did you really have to encourage the child to be noisy? You can’t say, “I see you here EVERY week–that is great!!” or something like that? How is that going to work out for the child in the long run? He’s going to go to restaurants and churches and not understand what the expectations are whatsoever. If you feel bad that he’s getting the stink eye, don’t encourage him to do the very thing that is going to make him persona non grata. It is confusing. Try to set the child up to succeed, rather than setting him up to cause conflict that you also can’t control.

 

[Xantippe]

Discipline during Mass may very well be one of the hardest things I have ever had to figure out as a parent.

Yes, I would say that Baby Girl’s absolute worst behavior lately has been at Mass. The parent is really handicapped by the fact that a) you can’t mete out justice in the pew and b) if you take the kid out, you’re reinforcing them for bad behavior.

She’s a big 6-year-old, so she’s at an age and size where 95% of other kids are OK in church, but she’s not. She’s very likely to squirm around obtrusively, make noise, talk loudly at inopportune times, etc. Basically, all of the behaviors that people have mentioned.

In her particular case, she was evaluated when she was 4 and the psychologist thinks she is probably on the autism spectrum. I would add that in her particular case, she seems to have a lot of attention/hyperactivity issues and an extreme need for sensory (name removed by moderator)ut. I believe that a lot of her inappropriate church behavior is sensory seeking behavior.

My husband has ordered a big set of fidget toys and our psychologist says to meter them out one at a time every 10 minutes when they come. The last couple Sundays, we improvised with a couple of fidget type toys, but three items wasn’t quite good enough, especially the second Sunday I pulled them out. But the first Sunday, she did really well.

I also plan to order Magnifikids for her once she’s more literate. Her older siblings liked it when they were in early elementary school.

Obviously, I’m not hanging a sign on my kid in church. But if you see unusual, age-inappropriate behavior, it’s likely to be a child with disabilities.

 

[babochka]

Hello.

I think we all need to be as considerate of each other as we can, especially at Mass. People of all ages go to Mass, not only children. I think a Pastor needs to minister to his entire flock, not just the youngsters. We’re all a lot cuter when we’re kids, but cuteness shouldn’t be the main priority.

Is loving your neighbor the 1st consideration here? I do know that at Mass that we need to be reverent, too. Is this a priority where you are?

Jesus wants the little children to come to Him, for sure, but from what I’ve been told He wants all of us.

Just some random thoughts.

I agree. This applies across the board - families with children need to be considerate, those without children or who are bothered by the children need to be generous in understanding and forgiveness when necessary. Outside of extending extraordinary love to each and every member of the congregation, there is no way to accommodate everybody. Yet we have a universal church that welcomes everybody.

 

[Xantippe]

Furthermore, the fact that you don’t “see” me smack my kid in the middle of Mass, which I assume is what you are wanting to see, doesn’t mean she doesn’t get discipline. We are very strict and if she doesn’t behave reasonably, she doesn’t get TV or art supplies for the week, or she misses fun activities that were planned. Parents often have to use their best judgement as to how they react to bad behavior in what is supposed to by a quiet environment. SOmetimes reacting or “disciplining” will cause a much bigger distraction (aka. meltdown) than just shushing and “looks”. THat doesn’t mean a consequence isn’t coming.

Yeah.

We can’t really mete out justice in the pew during Mass (because that would also be WAY distracting) but what I have explained to Baby Girl is that she won’t get a cookie immediately after Mass. She’ll have to stand there watching other people getting the good cookies…

Even a 20 second wait can be very painful to a small child.

 

[Xantippe]

Me either. Sometimes they scream as their parent hauls them out the back door, but that is all I’ve ever seen in my life long Catholic practice.

Come to think of it, usually a yelling kid is a kid who isn’t getting their way, so the fact that a child is yelling in church strongly suggests that the parent is making some kind of effort.

 

[babochka]

OK, but he also says, “They should only be taken out of the services briefly if they are causing chaos or havoc.”
We’re not suggesting children ought to be sat on so they don’t make a peep for all of Mass. The OP wrote that these children “even yell incessantly” or “play with loud toys.” Why on earth are parents allowing their children to bring toys that make noise into church in the first place?

The OP also heard the priest telling a child whose mother had done nothing to quite him to “keep being loud.” OK, some 3 year olds are just loud, but why would you tell a 3 year old that? When the parishioner asked the priest about the next day, the priest said he “feels bad when mothers get ‘the stink eye from parishioners’ when their kids are loud.” Well, fine, the high-five is great, but did you really have to encourage the child to be noisy? You can’t say, “I see you here EVERY week–that is great!!” or something like that? How is that going to work out for the child in the long run? He’s going to go to restaurants and churches and not understand what the expectations are whatsoever. If you feel bad that he’s getting the stink eye, don’t encourage him to do the very thing that is going to make him persona non grata. It is confusing. Try to set the child up to succeed, rather than setting him up to cause conflict that you also can’t control.

Thanks for pointing this out and redirecting to the original post. These threads always bring out the “why are children even in church crowd” and the “defense of little ones in church crowd.” It is so easy to get off-track here.

I honestly have a trouble relating to the OP. I have no reason not to believe her and I do believe her, but I have never seen such outrageous behavior in a church from kids and families who go to church regularly. (I have seen it in kids who are not accustomed to being in church, such as at a funeral. It was a horrific and uncomfortable experience to watch a boy drop his Gameboy into the grave and then crawl down to retrieve it.)

 

[babochka]

In her particular case, she was evaluated when she was 4 and the psychologist thinks she is probably on the autism spectrum. I would add that in her particular case, she seems to have a lot of attention/hyperactivity issues and an extreme need for sensory (name removed by moderator)ut. I believe that a lot of her inappropriate church behavior is sensory seeking behavior.

Lord have mercy on us parents of children with sensory issues!

I have a sensory-seeker and a sensory-avoider. Tons of fun having those two in the same house!

Seriously, if one has never encountered the world of sensory processing disorder, it is difficult to wrap the mind around it.

My 15-year-old is brought to tears of pain by the sound of a car playing its bass too loud. When she was 3, she would scream in terror and agony at the sound of a toilet flushing. She recently had to leave Mass at at church that we visited while on vacation because the music was so loud she couldn’t deal with it. My sensory-seeker is 12; he is constantly in motion, bumping into people in the communion line, falling off chairs and out of pews, unaware of where his body is in space and the force of his motions. 10 years of OT later, we’re still working on it.

To the uninitiated, it sounds ridiculous. Honestly, in my less understanding moments, it still seems ridiculous.
Why can’t they just get it together?!?

It looks like bad behavior that parents are ignoring. It sounds annoying, disruptive and disrespectful. Yet, these children (and adults) are children of God and in need of his Grace, too.