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adolfo123
Guest
why is the love given to Mary from her catholic children, seen as idolatry…?
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tobinatorstark
Guest
That is an awfully good question. Many non Catholics (not all) see us as worshiping Mary. Worshiping anything or anyone other than God is considered idolatry. It states so in the Bible. It also states so in many Church documents as well as the Catechism. We do not worship Mary. We do however give her veneration which is significantly different that worship. Mary is Jesus’ mother therefore, being the mother of God she is also called to be our spiritual mother. In the ten commandments we are called to honor thy mother and father. We honor her just as we would our own mother. The main reason they see our reverence to Mary as idolatry because they don’t know the difference between worship and veneration.
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Mrs_Mac
Guest
Also, because many non-Catholics (not all) do not believe in the communion of saints. Without that doctrine, it is easy to confuse prayers to Mary, requesting her intercession on our behalf, with worshipping her.
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06convert
Guest
It’s not just non-Catholics. There are plenty of lost Catholics out there that think we worship Mary, the saints, and the Pope. Which of course is just not true, but I’ve had to correct many. That level of misunderstanding about our faith is scary. The devil wants everyone to think we idolize them. I’m sure many in this group also think that the Eucharist is just a symbol…
My Protestant friend even asked me why we worship Mary. I found the confusion with him stemmed from the “Hail Mary”. For some reason “Hail” is taken as “Heil” like “Heil Hitler”. Instead of what it really means that Hail is just showery precipitation in the form of irregular pellets or balls of ice more than 1/5 in. (5 mm) in diameter, falling from a cumulonimbus cloud. … . . . … . .
Kidding. Of course it means, hail, to cheer, salute, or greet; welcome.
My Protestant friend even asked me why we worship Mary. I found the confusion with him stemmed from the “Hail Mary”. For some reason “Hail” is taken as “Heil” like “Heil Hitler”. Instead of what it really means that Hail is just showery precipitation in the form of irregular pellets or balls of ice more than 1/5 in. (5 mm) in diameter, falling from a cumulonimbus cloud. … . . . … . .
Kidding. Of course it means, hail, to cheer, salute, or greet; welcome.
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Crimson_Seraph
Guest
I love Mary too. I just don’t think it’s proper to lavish her with the level of adoration that Roman Catholics do. I only pray to God, if God sends me to hell for that, so be it. He should have told me specifically in his word to pray to Mary.
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jcrichton
Guest
I think it is due to so much emphasis that Catholics place on the Virgin Mary and how she is placed almost side by side with Christ in Salvific theology… Mom is way Marian; I am not–this, in the past, became an issue between us…
I think that it also has to do with the language which is applied to the Virgin Mary…
Finally, well intended as it may be, the Church has created a sublevel of Catholics who do not distinguish veneration from worship.
Maran atha!
Angel
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CWBetts
Guest
We dont adore Mary, we venerate her. All we ask for from Mary, or any other saint, is prayers. Note the Hail Mary:
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And Blessed is the friut of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death
We arent worshipping her. we are simply asking for her prayers.
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Crimson_Seraph
Guest
I’m pretty sure that isn’t all you do when you start heaping titles like “Queen of Heaven”, “Mediatrix of all Graces” and “Co-Redemptrix” upon her. Not to mention some of the stuff the Popes have said about her.
Now if it was just asking her to pray for you, then well I wouldn’t agree with it but it wouldn’t be as bad as claiming that she’s the greatest thing ever, holier than the arch angels, Queen of the Universe, etc. Not to mention naming her the “Spouse of the Holy Spirit”.
Now as I have said. I love Mary, I honor her memory and think that she was the most honored and holy woman to ever live. I personally think that she is the role model by which all Christian woman should strive for. I think that she is the model of the woman mentioned in Proverbs 30. I do not think that it is right to pray to her nor to lavish her with such vain titles as if she would desire them. She’s a creature just like me and you, someone who served her God and has earned her rest with him in paradise.
Mary isn’t my mother, she’s my sister in the Lord.
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thistle
Guest
Praying to the saints is scriptural.
catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312frs.asp
scripturecatholic.com/saints.html
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Crimson_Seraph
Guest
I’m not convinced, I saw more Church Fathers quoted there than Scripture. The best arguement you have is the Elders holding the bowls of incense which are the prayers of the saints. Not once there does it say that the Elders were the ones being prayed to or the ones who recieved the prayers. It just says that they hold the incense in the bowls.
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Jeremiah333
Guest
I agree.
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adolfo123
Guest
what do you think holding the incense means ?;they are holding your prayers…)
also if i may add, revelation used truths about this from the book of TOBIT which was removed from protestant bibles yet john used it …
Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;
Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
Tob 12:12 And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; and when you buried the dead, I was likewise present with you.
Tob 12:15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."
Rev. 1:4 – the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit 12:15 – Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints before the Holy One.
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,
Tob 12:15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."
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adolfo123
Guest
said:
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Crimson_Seraph
Guest
Jesus didn’t say that Mary was the Mother of the Church, he merely entrusted her to John and told him to look after her as if she were his mother. Obviously he cared about his earthly mother and wanted her well looked after, his beloved disciple was the best choice. This is confirmed when it says that he took her into his own home from then on. Now we can take that and blow it waaaaay out of context and claim that she’s now every Christian’s mother and the Queen of the Universe, etc etc, but couldn’t we just stick with the context?
As for Revelation 12. This is an interesting passage with multiple interpretations. Israel is one of them because of the reference of the sun and moon and twelve stars (ala Joseph’s dream), Israel also brought forth the Messiah. It could also reference the Church, and yes to a certain extent to Mary. The woman cries out in pain when she gives birth, which might be a problem for your teaching about her. If she was born without sin one would think she wouldn’t have had pain in childbirth because that is a result of the curse of sin is it not?
Either way, if this was such an important doctrine that was absolutely essential the Christian faith I must say that the Apostles botched it horribly by never mentioning it once in their letters or writings…indeed, one doesn’t see evidence of such Marian devotion until centuries later.
Like I said, I love Mary and don’t want to disparage her memory, but neither do I want to exalt her to such a high place as you do.
Soli Deo Gloria.
As for Revelation 12. This is an interesting passage with multiple interpretations. Israel is one of them because of the reference of the sun and moon and twelve stars (ala Joseph’s dream), Israel also brought forth the Messiah. It could also reference the Church, and yes to a certain extent to Mary. The woman cries out in pain when she gives birth, which might be a problem for your teaching about her. If she was born without sin one would think she wouldn’t have had pain in childbirth because that is a result of the curse of sin is it not?
Either way, if this was such an important doctrine that was absolutely essential the Christian faith I must say that the Apostles botched it horribly by never mentioning it once in their letters or writings…indeed, one doesn’t see evidence of such Marian devotion until centuries later.
Like I said, I love Mary and don’t want to disparage her memory, but neither do I want to exalt her to such a high place as you do.
Soli Deo Gloria.
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CWBetts
Guest
I think the reason that Protestants confuse our veneration of the Sanits with worship is the differnces between what Catholics and Protestants consider worship. The only direct connection Prtestants have with Jesus is prayer. They are never truly phisically in his presesnce because they deny the gift of the Eucharist. At every Mass or Communion service, we CAtholics are in the presence of Jesus Christ. He isn’t symbolically there, or there “in spirit,” but he is really truly there. Unless you have seen CAtholics in adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, you cannot understand, and words are a poor means of communication. All I know is that the respect given Mary, with all of her titles, is not like the Adoration accorded the Holy Trinity. Mary was a created being, saved from sin pre-emptively. The Triune God, Father, Son, and Spirit, are perfection. I know this did not convince anyone, but I hope it did help you see the Catholic position a little more clearly.
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jcrichton
Guest
I agree with some of what you say… but you are going to the extreme on the opposite side:
1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman, robed with the sun, standing on the moon, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant, and in labour, crying aloud in the pangs of childbirth.
5 The woman was delivered of a boy, the son who was to rule all the nations with an iron sceptre, and the child was taken straight up to God and to his throne, 6 while the woman escaped into the desert, where God had prepared a place for her to be looked after for twelve hundred and sixty days.
13 As soon as the dragon found himself hurled down to the earth, he sprang in pursuit of the woman, the mother of the male child, 14 but she was given a pair of the great eagle’s wings to fly away from the serpent into the desert, to the place where she was to be looked after for a time, two times and half a time.
15 So the serpent vomited water from his mouth, like a river, after the woman, to sweep her away in the current, 16 but the earth came to her rescue; it opened its mouth and swallowed the river spewed from the dragon’s mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged with the woman and went away to make war on the rest of her children, who obey God’s commandments and have in themselves the witness of Jesus. (Apocalypse 12:1-2, 5-6, 13-17)
So you see, while you may reject the Virgin Mary as your Mother, Scriptures tell us that she is!
Comapare also with St. John 19:
25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. 26 Seeing his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing near her, Jesus said to his mother, ‘Woman, this is your son.’ 27 Then to the disciple he said, ‘This is your mother.’ And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
Here’s where Jesus instituted the Communion of the Saints:
36 And when he saw the crowds he felt sorry for them because they were harassed and dejected, like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples, ‘The harvest is rich but the labourers are few, so ask the Lord of the harvest to send out labourers to his harvest.’ (St. Matthew 9:36-37)
Jesus is God, so there was no need for Him to tell His disciples to ask for assistance since He could have provided all that was necessary; He delegates His Authority and creates a Communion between His disciples, the world, and God. When we read through the Epistles we find the Apostles engaged in that very Communion as they not only pray for the world but also for each other (Romans 15:30, 31; 2 Corinthians 1:11; 9:14; 13:9; Ephesians 6:18, 19).
Compare with Apocalypse 5:8 and 8:3,4:
and when he took it, the four living creatures prostrated themselves before him and with them the twenty-four elders; each one of them was holding a harp and had a golden bowl full of incense which are the prayers of the saints. (Apocalypse 5:8)
3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. A large quantity of incense was given to him to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that stood in front of the throne;
4 and so from the angel’s hand the smoke of the incense went up in the presence of God and with it the prayers of the saints. (Apocalypse 8:3, 4)
What is interesting to note is that these passages speak of a time right before the Great Tribulations so there is no way that these “saints” and “all saints” would be limited to the time period when the Thirteen were still in their earthly bodies!
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
Though the Church gave birth the the Bible, she did not give birth to Jesus; so all interpretations of Apocalypse 12 suggesting otherwise is flawed.
True there is a similarity in the dream Joseph had and the vision of Apocalypse 12… but you forget that Joseph’s dream was a revelation about his rise to power in Egypt and his parents and brothers dependence upon him; Apocalypse 12 speaks of the Mother of that very special Child which Satan wishes to devour and of their rescue, Satan’s failure and his continuing assault on the Woman’s other children, all of those who are Christ’s disciples!
Maran atha!
Angel
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Crimson_Seraph
Guest
Israel gave birth to the Messiah, and indeed the sun and moon and twelve stars echos the dream that Joseph had concerning his family.
And the passage in John says nothing about Mary being my mother. What it does say is that Jesus told John to look after her as if she was his mother. To take John and say he’s the entire Church is stretching it beyond the context and indeed is reading something into the passage.
And those passages that supposedly justified praying to saints in heaven…sorry still don’t see it.
And the passage in John says nothing about Mary being my mother. What it does say is that Jesus told John to look after her as if she was his mother. To take John and say he’s the entire Church is stretching it beyond the context and indeed is reading something into the passage.
And those passages that supposedly justified praying to saints in heaven…sorry still don’t see it.
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Cathhsmom
Guest
1st, to define a point on prayer. When Catholics use the word pray, we mean it as ask. We pray to saints meaning we ask them to pray for us to God. We do this in addition to praying to God directly. Just like my Christian friends of all denominations ask me to pray for them. I don’t say, “No, you have to pray directly to Him.” I pray for them. Just like I ask them and the saints to pray for me when I need help. I do this along with praying myself to God. I just wanted to clarify that because I have had friends who didn’t understand that. They thought that we, Catholics, thought that the saint was God and going to do it for us themselves which couldn’t be farther from the truth! 
Now, for Mary. There has been mention of the Hail Mary. The 1st half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture.
Hail Mary full of grace
The Lord is with thee: this is from when the Angel Gabriel came to her to tell her what God wanted.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb: from when Mary went to Elizabeth, John the Baptist’s mom. The babe in Elizabeth’s womb jumped for joy at hearing Mary’s greeting because he recognized that she was carrying the messiah.
Jesus: The fruit of her womb. I think we all know where that came from.
Now, the 2nd part.
Holy Mary, Mother of God: Mary was Holy in that she was full of God’s grace, see greeting of Angel Gabriel, AND she was the Mother of Jesus who is the 2nd person of the Trinity. Jesus is fully human and fully divine. He is God, and she IS His mother. Therefor, she is the Mother of God, ie. Jesus. He is 1 person with 2 natures, human and divine. She didn’t give birth to a nature. She gave birth to a person, Jesus. Saying she is the Mother of God is not saying that she is above God, but that through His grace, she became the mother of Jesus who is God. I hope I got that out correctly. We just covered this in CCD last week with my 5th grade class.
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. I hope that we can all agree that we need prayers all through our lives. We are just asking Mary who is already in Heaven with God to pray for us.
Now for the Rosary. Have you ever read a Scripture Rosary? The Rosary is the story of Jesus. It is to help you meditate on His life, death, and ressurection. BTW, you don’t have to say the Rosary to be Catholic. It is not a dogma of the church that you do that. It is a devotion that many Catholics have. Anyway, there are 15 to 20 Mysteries of the Rosary depending on if you are a traditionalist who only wants the way it was for hundreds of years, or if you want to do the extra 5 that JPII added. Here are the different sets:
Joyful:
Now, for Mary. There has been mention of the Hail Mary. The 1st half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture.
Hail Mary full of grace
The Lord is with thee: this is from when the Angel Gabriel came to her to tell her what God wanted.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb: from when Mary went to Elizabeth, John the Baptist’s mom. The babe in Elizabeth’s womb jumped for joy at hearing Mary’s greeting because he recognized that she was carrying the messiah.
Jesus: The fruit of her womb. I think we all know where that came from.
Now, the 2nd part.
Holy Mary, Mother of God: Mary was Holy in that she was full of God’s grace, see greeting of Angel Gabriel, AND she was the Mother of Jesus who is the 2nd person of the Trinity. Jesus is fully human and fully divine. He is God, and she IS His mother. Therefor, she is the Mother of God, ie. Jesus. He is 1 person with 2 natures, human and divine. She didn’t give birth to a nature. She gave birth to a person, Jesus. Saying she is the Mother of God is not saying that she is above God, but that through His grace, she became the mother of Jesus who is God. I hope I got that out correctly. We just covered this in CCD last week with my 5th grade class.
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. I hope that we can all agree that we need prayers all through our lives. We are just asking Mary who is already in Heaven with God to pray for us.
Now for the Rosary. Have you ever read a Scripture Rosary? The Rosary is the story of Jesus. It is to help you meditate on His life, death, and ressurection. BTW, you don’t have to say the Rosary to be Catholic. It is not a dogma of the church that you do that. It is a devotion that many Catholics have. Anyway, there are 15 to 20 Mysteries of the Rosary depending on if you are a traditionalist who only wants the way it was for hundreds of years, or if you want to do the extra 5 that JPII added. Here are the different sets:
Joyful:
- The Annunciation: where the Angel Gabriel came to Mary to announce that she would be the mother of God’s son, Jesus
- The Visitation: where Mary went to visit Elizabeth and John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb at the sound of her voice.
- The Nativity: the birth of Jesus
- The Presentation: where Jesus was presented in the temple as an infant and Anna and Zechariah recognized Him as the savior.
- The Finding in the Temple: where Mary and Joseph found Jesus in the temple when he was 12
- The Baptism of Jesus: Jesus baptized in the Jordan by John the Baptist
- The Wedding of Cana: where Jesus performed his first miracle, and for his mother
- The Proclamation of the Kingdom: preaching about the kingdom of God
- The Transfiguration: were He is Transfigured (Matt 17;2) in front of Peter, John, and James. And Moses and Elijah appeared.
- The Institution of the Eucharist: the Last Supper
- The Agony in the Garden: the garden of Gethsemane where Jesus prayed
- The Scourging at the Pilar: where he was whipped
- The Crowning with Thorns
- The Carrying of the Cross
- The Crucifixion of Our Lord
- The Resurrection: of Jesus
- The Ascension: where Jesus went up to Heaven
- The Descent of the Holy Spirit
- The Assumption: of Mary into Heaven.
- The Coronation: Mary being crown Queen of Heaven
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