Loving Mary...

[Crimson_Seraph]

WHERE IN THE WORLD did you get the idea that asking saints in Heaven to pray for you was necessary for salvation!?!?!

Newsflash: The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that. You don’t need anyone to pray for you to be saved, but it’s not a bad idea to get as much help as you can get in the prayer department. Why? I dunno. But the Sacred Scripture says so!

The Bible is perfect as it is… as the Catholic Church canonized it! It’s use is to edify and educate us. But ultimately it’s coming to Jesus, not the Bible (cf. John 5:39-40) that is our salvation!

I was referencing the Marian Dogmas, actually. Pardon me if i’m wrong but doesn’t someone have to believe in a Dogma to go to heaven? So if I don’t believe that Mary was Immaculate or that she was Assumed into Heaven and is the Queen of the Universe and all that stuff, am I going to hell?

Edit: I don’t treat Mary like a salmon who spawned and then went to die. I just refuse to pray to her or any other person but God. If Catholicism didn’t place so much emphasis on Mariology and a few other issues, I might be persuaded to convert, but as it stands I cannot because I’de be required to do that which I cannot in my heart do. I cannot and will not ever pray to anyone but my God.

 

[Doc2be]

I was referencing the Marian Dogmas, actually. Pardon me if i’m wrong but doesn’t someone have to believe in a Dogma to go to heaven? So if I don’t believe that Mary was Immaculate or that she was Assumed into Heaven and is the Queen of the Universe and all that stuff, am I going to hell?

Edit: I don’t treat Mary like a salmon who spawned and then went to die. I just refuse to pray to her or any other person but God. If Catholicism didn’t place so much emphasis on Mariology and a few other issues, I might be persuaded to convert, but as it stands I cannot because I’de be required to do that which I cannot in my heart do. I cannot and will not ever pray to anyone but my God.

I don’t pray to anyone but God. I choose to ask for Mary’s prayers because as I stated earlier God chose Mary first, not Catholics. Plus, any prayer that we offer to the saints or Mary, because of their perfection in Heaven is completely 100% transferred to God. I am just not sure of myself and my purity to be before God’s throne. If I found myself there offering my requests I would surely loose all speech and be blinded by His light which my sinful eyes can not perceive. My requests come with sin and stains attached to them, no matter how pure I might think myself to be, yet the prayers of the saints and Mary especially (because God chose her to be) are completely free from the stains of sin. They are perfect and exactly what God wants to hear. Mary spent over 30 years with Jesus on Earth. Do you think she does not know what He likes and enjoys?

Plus, the dogma’s concerning Mary do not require you to pray to her. While she might be the surest and straightest road to Christ, her Son, and God Our Father, her praise and veneration is not required. There are many saints who believed in Mary and her special role in salvation history, but did not bear any special devotion to her. It is possible, without a doubt, to reach Jesus and God without the Saints or Mary’s help/prayers. But why turn down a gift from God which is so freely given? That would be my question.

God Bless.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Mary isn’t my mother, she’s my sister in the Lord.

How terribly sad.

 

[jJohn_Michael]

Edit: I don’t treat Mary like a salmon who spawned and then went to die. I just refuse to pray to her or any other person but God. If Catholicism didn’t place so much emphasis on Mariology and a few other issues, I might be persuaded to convert, but as it stands I cannot because I’de be required to do that which I cannot in my heart do. I cannot and will not ever pray to anyone but my God.

I am assuming that you are Protestant. Here is what Martin Luther had to say about the Virgin Mary.

“One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).”

Here is what he had to say about the Immaculate conception:

" It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527)."

"She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil." (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522).

If Mary, who is in Heaven and could never be out of the will of God, personally gave us the splendid gift of the Rosary by the will of God Himself and instructed us to use it, how could I refuse such a gift? Who am I, a mere mortal, full of sin and struggling with my own sanctification, to pass judgment or to call into question this Holy Mother of Christ so favored by God who holds such a special place in the heart of Christ?

I have been on both sides of the fence (Catholic and Protestant) but it wasn’t until I began to practice Catholicism that the process of my sanctification truly began. Only through the Rosary and the Holy Eucharist, have I found the fullness of God which I never experienced in my prayer life and study of scripture as a Protestant. The matter of being a true Christian goes far beyond simply avoiding the eternal pain of Hell and gaining Heaven. It is coming into a union with God through Christ and experiencing first hand the “fullness of joy” and all of the incredible promises of Christ. Are you experiencing that now? Is your interior life filled with the unspeakable sweetness of the enduring presence of God? Can you say, as David says that your “cup is running over?” There was a time in my life when I thought and believed as you do now. I suggest that you pray to God to reveal the truth to you about the matter and I will pray for you as well.

John

 

[Crimson_Seraph]

Well I’ll tell ya what. Let’s agree to disagree, and if we both make it into heaven praise God! And if God tells me that I was wrong in my views I’ll gladly apologize to both you and to Mary herself, how’s that sound?

Remember, we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Well I’ll tell ya what. Let’s agree to disagree, and if we both make it into heaven praise God! And if God tells me that I was wrong in my views I’ll gladly apologize to both you and to Mary herself, how’s that sound?

Remember, we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

It sounds great, I hope we both experience life eternal in Heaven.

Have you seen this?

**THE VIRGIN MARY AS THE ARK OF THE NEW COVENANT

**

 

[Crimson_Seraph]

I can see Mary as having simularities with the Ark in that she carried the Word of God in her, albeit in flesh. Jesus was also the mana that fell from heaven, and the Ark held the mana. I just wouldn’t run with the concept though.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

I can see Mary as having simularities with the Ark in that she carried the Word of God in her, albeit in flesh. Jesus was also the mana that fell from heaven, and the Ark held the mana. I just wouldn’t run with the concept though.

Why not? The Holy Spirit inserted in there for a reason.

 

[pattimayo]

All of your responses have given me so much to think about. I’ve recently left a lifetime of protestantism and have been found it particularly challenging to get over my fears of accepting the Church’s teaching on prayers to the Saints. The links to articles on the subject are very helpful - Thank you.

Has anyone else on here been a long time ex-protestant who might be able to share how they got past the fear of this?

 

[CWBetts]

Why not? The Holy Spirit inserted in there for a reason.

Modern Protestants would then have to admit that the Church teaches truth! It as a typical case of picking and choosing which doctrines to believe.

 

[Bastoune]

All of your responses have given me so much to think about. I’ve recently left a lifetime of protestantism and have been found it particularly challenging to get over my fears of accepting the Church’s teaching on prayers to the Saints. The links to articles on the subject are very helpful - Thank you.

Has anyone else on here been a long time ex-protestant who might be able to share how they got past the fear of this?

Well, I’m a cradle Catholic, but with friends who have converted (mainly because God used me as a very “convincing” instrument ) expressed great difficulty overcoming Mary when they decided to become Catholic. (I wonder if many Protestants who become Orthodox have the same issues…).

I remember having heard in many non-denominational churches that “Catholics are really great Christians [so far, so good], but if only they could get over that Mary thing!”

I remember challenging one man on a similar statement, that honoring Mary detracted from God. “Do you love your wife?”

He replied, “Yes.”

“Doesn’t that detract from God? What the tender moments you share with her? Isn’t that detracting from God?”

People forget that Mary ALWAYS points to God. Anyone who doesn’t get that, is NOT following Catholic Tradition.

How does LOVING Mary detract from loving or worshipng God? The Holy Spirit is the “glue” that unites us to Mary. We are the Body of Christ. Mary gave birth to His physical fleshly body. We partake of that Body and Blood in the Eucharist and are transformed into Christ.

Mary is the daughter of the Father, mother of the Son, spouse of the Holy Spirit (remember the term “overshadow” reflects the OT language of God’s “marital” covenant with Israel: cin.org/users/james/files/talmud.htm) – and we too are children of God, and we are also Jesus “mother” are we not (cf. Mark 3:35) and brothers (Augustine gave an extensive sermon on this…), and in Mary’s complete relationship to the full Diety of God, in the Trinity, we see ourselves reflected and represented in her.

That doesn’t give us reason to ponder her, meditate on her life, feel a bond with her?!?!?

All generations will call her blessed… at least the Catholic ones!

 

[jcrichton]

All of your responses have given me so much to think about. I’ve recently left a lifetime of protestantism and have been found it particularly challenging to get over my fears of accepting the Church’s teaching on prayers to the Saints. The links to articles on the subject are very helpful - Thank you.

Has anyone else on here been a long time ex-protestant who might be able to share how they got past the fear of this?

Hi, pattimayo!

…though not ex-protestant… I want to share my thoughts:

I think that much of this “fear” is due to language… just as the schism in the early Church (Eastern/Orthodox) was due to language, non-Catholics erroneously believe that the Catholic understanding of praying to the Saints means that we neglect God (all three Divine Persons) as we seek these “Saints” instead of the Divine. I suggest that you read through the Epistles where you will discover that the Communion of the Saints existed in the early Church–though St. Paul and others did not say pray to such and such, they did ask for prayers and spoke of their intercessions for both the Saints and the Church…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Mary is the daughter of the Father, mother of the Son, spouse of the Holy Spirit (remember the term “overshadow” reflects the OT language of God’s “marital” covenant with Israel: cin.org/users/james/files/talmud.htm)

…this is exactly what I mean by “language;” to non-Catholics, it is impossible to view the Virgin Mary in such manner… to them it seems that Catholics are deifying Mary–which all true Catholics know it is not the case!

All generations will call her blessed… at least the Catholic ones!

…yeah, this is one of those passages which are purposefully or subconsciously ignored by non-Catholics.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Crimson_Seraph]

Modern Protestants would then have to admit that the Church teaches truth! It as a typical case of picking and choosing which doctrines to believe.

I fully admit that the Catholic Church does teach truth, they have the Scriptures, believe in the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, Jesus as the only way to salvation etc.

It’s just these extra-Biblical traditions that I take issue with because I think they have deluded and in some cases nullified the truth and commandments of God. Case in point, this obsession with Mary has grown to such a point that if you even suggest that Mary had a normal relationship with her husband Joseph and had children, you’ll get spammed by scores of angry catholics shouting “You’re an anti-catholic! You hate Mary!”

I’m not anti-catholic, but I do think Catholicism is in error over certain issues. You’ll just have to pray that God (or Mary or whoever) will open my eyes if your traditions are true or not.

 

[Doc2be]

I fully admit that the Catholic Church does teach truth, they have the Scriptures, believe in the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, Jesus as the only way to salvation etc.

It’s just these extra-Biblical traditions that I take issue with because I think they have deluded and in some cases nullified the truth and commandments of God. Case in point, this obsession with Mary has grown to such a point that if you even suggest that Mary had a normal relationship with her husband Joseph and had children, you’ll get spammed by scores of angry catholics shouting “You’re an anti-catholic! You hate Mary!”

I’m not anti-catholic, but I do think Catholicism is in error over certain issues. You’ll just have to pray that God (or Mary or whoever) will open my eyes if your traditions are true or not.

I mean this next comment in the kindest way possible…

Did you even read what I wrote earlier? I showed you in the Bible where Mary is talked about and why we should praise her and work with her, through her, and in her to get to God.

Please read the Magnificat. Mary is mentioned in Acts 1:14. “All these (apostles) devoted themselves with one accord to prayer, together with some women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.”

Praying to Mary could only be as extra-biblical as prayer to saints, which is 0% extra-biblical, as others have pointed out.

If you would like to talk about Mary’s perpetual virginity I would be more than happy to start a new thread or continue it here. We can also talk about the use of the word brothers in the aforementioned passage and the other passages. There are perfectly logical and societal explanations that are complete/compliant with the Bible and Tradition.

I only want to strengthen my knowledge of Mary and in turn God and maybe, God willing, help you view her as He views her.

God Bless.

 

[Bastoune]

Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is explained (both Biblically AND according to Jewish Tradition – remember, the Jews were not sola scriptura by any means! They never even decided on a canon until A.D. 90, only AFTER the existence of the Church, and even then, when they chose to throw out the deuterocanonicals, Jews in North Africa and Ethiopia retained those books!) in the link I posted earlier:

cin.org/users/james/files/talmud.htm

It would have been impossible for Joseph to have sexual relations with the woman who was espoused to God to give birth to God. But he could act as her husband and guardian according to God’s plan.

Besides, when I have God on my mind, ONLY God fills my mind. God in the womb, and God in the FLESH in the next room or same room, how am I going to do anything but praise God. Sexual relations aren’t bad but even if Mary and Joseph had had a “normal” marriage, not having sex would make perfect sense when you have GOD as your child…

But Scripturally those who received the Word of God abstained from sexual relations in marriage (look at Moses… and read the link). How much more the one who bore the Word in the Flesh and the man who took them in.

 

[jcrichton]

Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is explained (both Biblically AND according to Jewish Tradition – remember, the Jews were not sola scriptura by any means! They never even decided on a canon until A.D. 90, only AFTER the existence of the Church, and even then, when they chose to throw out the deuterocanonicals, Jews in North Africa and Ethiopia retained those books!) in the link I posted earlier:

cin.org/users/james/files/talmud.htm

It would have been impossible for Joseph to have sexual relations with the woman who was espoused to God to give birth to God. But he could act as her husband and guardian according to God’s plan.

Besides, when I have God on my mind, ONLY God fills my mind. God in the womb, and God in the FLESH in the next room or same room, how am I going to do anything but praise God. Sexual relations aren’t bad but even if Mary and Joseph had had a “normal” marriage, not having sex would make perfect sense when you have GOD as your child…

But Scripturally those who received the Word of God abstained from sexual relations in marriage (look at Moses… and read the link). How much more the one who bore the Word in the Flesh and the man who took them in.

…what is quite intersting to me is how Western society has no problem with non-Catholic religions where the monks/nuns live a celibate life or with the couple who claim to live a celibate life while even sharing their bed; yet, somehow the two most righteous persons in the New Testament could not wait to copulate–never mind that St. Paul chose to live a celibate life and encouraged others to do the same!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[adolfo123]

I’m not saying that Mary can’t be in there, I’m simply saying that you’re reading Catholic doctrine that wasn’t believed or defined until centuries after it was written back into the text…

Like the Trinity >>>>???

Did not interpretation of the messiah was read back into the text itself… Jesus centuries later told the truth interpretations of the scripture; do you not think the holy spirit is doing this also showing the church the full meaning of the text , the scripture?

 

[adolfo123]

I fully admit that the Catholic Church does teach truth, they have the Scriptures, believe in the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, Jesus as the only way to salvation etc.

It’s just these extra-Biblical traditions that I take issue with because I think they have deluded and in some cases nullified the truth and commandments of God. Case in point, this obsession with Mary has grown to such a point that if you even suggest that Mary had a normal relationship with her husband Joseph and had children, you’ll get spammed by scores of angry catholics shouting “You’re an anti-catholic! You hate Mary!”

I’m not anti-catholic, but I do think Catholicism is in error over certain issues. You’ll just have to pray that God (or Mary or whoever) will open my eyes if your traditions are true or not.

Isa 66:7 Before being in labour she has given birth. Before the birth pangs came, she has been delivered of a child.

this is the immaculate conception it is a christo prophecy of his mother. No pain ; this woman is not under the curse of gen 3:16 because she is sinless…

And God will used his ark of the covenant in the end times for the ark is a weapon in the battle … here is a youtube video on mary the ark of the covenant :youtube.com/watch?v=MVb0B_PUZe8&feature=channel_page

 

[jJohn_Michael]

I’m not anti-catholic, but I do think Catholicism is in error over certain issues. You’ll just have to pray that God (or Mary or whoever) will open my eyes if your traditions are true or not.

on January 2, A.D. 40,[3] while he was deep in prayer by the banks of the Ebro,[6] the Mother of God appeared to him and gave him a small wooden statue of herself and a column of jasper and instructed him to build a church in her honor:[4]
“ This place is to be my house, and this image and column shall be the title and altar of the temple that you shall build. ”

[edit] First Chapel

About a year after the apparition James arranged to build a small chapel in Mary’s honor, the first Church ever dedicated to the honor of the Virgin Mary. After James returned to Jerusalem, he was executed by Herod Agrippa in about 44 AD, the first apostle to be martyred for his faith.(Wikipedia)

I guess that James, one of the twelve apostles of Christ, was in error too?

John