Loving Mary...

[Lev23]

Let me tell you what that image means to me (you mistakenly assumed it was to show off my pride in the crusades).

The image of a knight reminds me of a verse in scripture. It shows strength, lack of fear, courage. I have a strong faith. I cannot help that. I believe in God. I love the fact that I do.

The Templar Knight represents men who were pious, who were chaste, who served God, who served Christians by protecting the roads they traveled on to make pilgrimages to the Holy Land.

Ephesians 6:10-17

10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Since you say I like to open up cans of worms, you bring up an interesting point. You liken what St.Paul speaks of in Ephesians to what the noble pious crusaders represented for the sake of making pilgrimages to the Holy Land, i.e., the land of Israel. St.Paul also speaks of a remnant of Israel within the Church. But we see historically the Crusaders never helped the Jews regain what they lost to the Romans. Who better to have take care of the land than the ones God gave them to live there? In fact, when talking about the Israelites right to the land today, many who claim to be Christian say “God has gotten out of the real estate business!”

But then why is it important then for Christians to put so much value into real estate to make pilgrimages to? I’m not saying making pilgrimages are wrong, but why is it right for us Christians to claim land to be Holy and not Israel to do so also, wheter they be broken branches of the olive tree or not?

 

[Lev23]

There are many other truths that are off topic too. Cars use gas to move. King James was a homosexual pedophile. Bush lied.

But none of them have anything to do with loving Mary.

You were just trying to show me up, to make me look like a hypocrite.

In short, you were trying to take the splinter from my eye.

As for teaching the truth on Islamic apostates, start a thread some where else. This thread is for Protestants to confront why they don’t love Mary more than Muslims.

Matthew 7:3
“Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?”

What if a Muslim wanted to point out The Protestant Wars?
Or the Protestant persecutions of Catholics in Northern Ireland? Or King Henry the 8ths barbaric murders of Christians? Or the 8,000 women & children murdered in Rome when the Lutherans attempted to overtake the city? Or the 150,000 murders of women during the Protestant Witch Hunts? Or the 3,500 hundred cases of sexual abuse by Protestants “in” churches that occur every year?

Imagine the can of worms you would’ve opened yourself up to if they were as judgemental of you…as you’ve shown you are of them.

You could point out theological differences, but to pass personal judgement, that’s just not Christian.

But again, there’s alwasy that Post New Topic button you could use.

I’m not calling you a hypocrite or calling you out to be one. As a matter of fact, I say you are not a hypocrite!

I’m just pointing out some contradictions from where I’m standing. For instance giving Islam praise for honoring and loving Mary, but if a Muslim converts from the Islamic faith because of Mary, they are subject to all kinds of persecution from Islam, including death.

As far as you pointing out protestant wrongdoings, don’t bother, they don’t get under my skin, nor do Catholic or Jewish wrongdoing.

In my mind, anyone who literally “killed for Christ” in this church age never had fellowship with him while they did it.

Peace of Jesus Christ be with you.

 

[2ndGen]

To 2nd Gen.

I read what you had to say about Mary. I am not Catholic, but I love Mary as most Christians do.

 

[2ndGen]

Since you say I like to open up cans of worms, you bring up an interesting point. You liken what St.Paul speaks of in Ephesians to what the noble pious crusaders represented for the sake of making pilgrimages to the Holy Land, i.e., the land of Israel. St.Paul also speaks of a remnant of Israel within the Church.

 

[2ndGen]

I’m not calling you a hypocrite or calling you out to be one. As a matter of fact, I say you are not a hypocrite!

 

[Heblesses]

I made the statement that Catholics and Muslims love Mary more than Protestants do. For this, I was called presumtuous.

I’d like to give Protestants a format to defend themselves against my statement.

Now, I can’t speak for Muslims in detail, but I know that they love and revere Mary. They even have an entire book of the Koran devoted to her. I’ll hope that a Muslim can enlighten us all (and if neccessary, correct me if I’m wrong on what I believe they feel for her) on how their faith sees Mary, the mother of Jesus.

As for Catholics, I can’t speak for every last Catholic, but generally speaking, we love her. We have no issues with veneration of Mary. We see her as our mother (as Jesus is our brother through our common Father Who is God, The Father).

We ask her to pray for us.

We defend her when others belittle her or impune her reputation.

We are jealous for her image to the world and guard it against misrepresentations.

We praise her.

We mention her regularly.

We have always felt this way, since the beginning of Christianity.

Former Catholics who’d go on to be the church fathers of the Protestant Reformation also venerated Mary (Luther, Calvin, Zwigli, etc…).

The non-veneration of Mary was created post Reformation by anti-Catholic Protestants and is a relatively new practice having only been employed during the last 400 years.

But for 2,000 years, Christianity has loved and revered the woman who gave up her only born Son so that man would be saved.

We are grateful to her.

Jesus, Who is The Life, came through her womb, therefore, our eternal Salvation Who is Christ came through her womb…her womb gave us life…just like a mother does to any child born naturally.

Scripture calls anybody who follows Christ the children of the woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ (Revelations 12:17).

So, we love her as Jesus Himself loved her…as our own mother.

Catholics, if you can add onto what I said or just want to offer your own words and/or corrections, by all means please do.

Non-Catholic Christians, the question is to you…am I wrong to assert that Catholics and Muslims love and revere and hold Mary in higher esteem than you do?

If so, I welcome your explanation & correction because I would love to be wrong about this one. I really would. I would really like to know that you consider Mary (as The Scriptures tell us) the mother of all Christians and that you love her even more than Muslims do.

Of course, we can all define for ourselves what love is and just so that there’s no confusion, I’ve listed what I believe Catholics feel for Mary as a common faith (and can be corrected by Catholics if need be).

Do Catholics and Muslims love Mary more than non-Catholic Christians?

 

[Heblesses]

Lev23;3189999:

You misunderstood me. I liken the image of the knight to the physical description Paul uses of armor.

Think about it, what if we never had access to the Holy Land?

Imagine all of the archeological finds that would’ve gone unknown?

All we want (speaking for those questions that feel the same) is the access to worship where Jesus walked and taught “if” we wanted to and could.

Think about it…the Arabs did it to the Jews (before us).

But you pounce on Catholics only?

It seems that whatever is anti-Catholic is fine by you.

 

[Heblesses]

2ndGen;3190083:
To Lev23 and others trying to contact me or leave threads etc.
I have had several messages and refers to threads. I haven’t figured out yet how to find the messages or the threads to answer you.

Please write me directly at godsgrace33@yahoo.com
Thank you-
heblesses

 

[HannahLisa]

Hannah,

Survey question: Of all the Protestants you know, who are happier more “Christlike” Christians, the nuetral Protestants or the anti-Catholics?

For me, nuetral Protestants always seemed truly joyful and anti-Catholics truly miserable.

What’s your take as an “insider”?

I’ve been blessed to never run into much anti-Catholicism, so I’m not sure.

 

[paarsurrey]

Since then I have no problem asking for the prayers of the Mother of God, Mary most holy, I am completely convinced of the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, Perpetual Virginity, and Coronation of Mary as Queen of Heaven.:extrahappy:

Hi

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.

I am of the opinion that the prayers must be addressed to GodAllahYHWH directly and without any intercessions. GodAllahYHWH is All-Powerful and All-Hearing, he does not have to seek anybody’s approval for acceptance of the prayers.

I however agree with Mary coceiving a child later named JesusYeshuaIssa without a father, under a commandment of GodAllahYHWH already conveyed to MaryMeriumMaryam though an angel. Since there are many fathers and mothers, some of them mentioned in Quran/Bible/History , who got sons or daughters by a gospel from GodAllahYHWH conveyed through an angel; Mary’s conception of Jesus should not be treated as unnatural but rare.

As for as her “Assumption, Perpetual Virginity, and Coronation of Mary as Queen of Heaven” is concerned, these seem to be to me mere superstitions of my Catholic friends. I am sorry to differ with you but that is what I believe for so many rational reasons.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

I don’t think anyone who acknowledges the saints could possibly not acknowledge the Blessed Mother. However, most Protestants do not acknowledge the saints, and of those who do, few make a practice of asking any of them for prayers.

Hi

Well I don’t agree with you. It is another thing to believe in the saints as Friends of GodAllahYHWH and in Mary as respected mother of JesusYeshuaIssa but to use Saints or Mary or Jesus as intercessors is not OK, in my opinion. GodAllahYHWH should be addressed directly in prayers without any intercessors. There is however no harm for praying to GodAllahYHWH to increase their status in paradise.Please don’t mind.I respect your religion.

Thanks

 

[2ndGen]

I’ve been blessed to never run into much anti-Catholicism, so I’m not sure.

Blessed is definately the word.

Imagine if you told people that you know that weren’t Catholic that you were converting to Catholicism…

…might be a strange way of testing them.

 

[2ndGen]

Hi

Well I don’t agree with you. It is another thing to believe in the saints as Friends of GodAllahYHWH and in Mary as respected mother of JesusYeshuaIssa but to use Saints or Mary or Jesus as intercessors is not OK, in my opinion. GodAllahYHWH should be addressed directly in prayers without any intercessors. There is however no harm for praying to GodAllahYHWH to increase their status in paradise.Please don’t mind.I respect your religion.

Thanks

Assalam Alaikum

Do Muslims pray for others?

 

[paarsurrey]

Assalam Alaikum
Do Muslims pray for others?

Hi

Yes, we do pray for all the humanity.
The Holy Quran : Chapter 1: Al-Fatihah
[1:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful
[1:2] All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3] The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:4] Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5] Thee alone do we* worship and Thee alone do we* implore for help.
[1:6] Guide us* in the right path –
[1:7] The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=1

• The plurals used in the above famous prayer of all the Muslims is on behalf of and for all the humans.

Thanks

 

[2ndGen]

Hi

Yes, we do pray for all the humanity.
The Holy Quran : Chapter 1: Al-Fatihah
[1:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful
[1:2] All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3] The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:4] Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5] Thee alone do we* worship and Thee alone do we* implore for help.
[1:6] Guide us* in the right path –
[1:7] The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=1

• The plurals used in the above famous prayer of all the Muslims is on behalf of and for all the humans.

Thanks

Then you do believe in “intercessory” prayer.

 

[paarsurrey]

Then you do believe in “intercessory” prayer.

Hi

No,we do not believe in intercessory prayers.

How that Idea has come into your mind, please?

Thans

 

[po18guy]

Funny, the bible hardly mentions Mary after her involvment with Christ’s ministry beginning. You would think that if she had such a HUGE impact on christianity and the first christians she would be mentioned a whole lot more. I believe she has importance and without her, things would have been much different. BUT she is a mere human like ourselves who needed a savior as much as we do. If we put any more on her we give her a stature that isn’t suited for her. And one not intended by Christ.
Continued…

There was to be only one woman in the course of eternity destined to give God a human nature. Did He send Gabriel from His throne to a run-of-the-mill girl? No. Since Mary was so young, what on earth could she have accomplished as a teenager to be so addressed (“full of grace”) by the Angel Gabriel? No one else in scripture was so addressed - especially not by Gabriel, who stands in God’s presence. With the exception of Isaiah 7:14, nothing is written about Mary prior to the annunciation, we firmly believe that she was “highly favored” by God, Who saved her by preserving her from sin. Consider the contrast from scripture:

Psalm 30:7 (of David) O LORD, when you favored me, you made my mountain stand firm;

Luke 1:28
The angel went to her (Mary) and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

Luke 1:43 (Elizabeth) But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

King David, and Elizabeth, by their own reckoning, were “favored”. Only Mary was “highly favored”, spoken by the Angel of the Lord, not by her own reckoning. Yet, we absolutely believe that Mary was created, 100% human, just as you or I - only that God, her Savior, preserved her from sin because of the unique role He had for her.

Her messenger Gabriel and God’s mission came directly from the Throne of the Most High God. He alone gave her a personal mission, one requiring her to honor Him and in turn be honored, (Luke 1:48) to give human nature to God at the risk of her own flesh. See the parallel with Christ Himself here? Both Adam and Eve were conceived without sin, and both were created to be the major part of God’s plan, the only part of creation which could return the Father’s love. It is consistent that God would act in the same way (preserving Mary from sin to bear Christ’s sinless nature) as He introduced His plan of man’s redemption.

Veneration of Mary may appear as worship to unbelievers, or those who do not practice as Catholics do. Catholic practice can be difficult to understand, as God Himself is difficult to understand. Our practices came from Him, and bear many of His mysterious ways.

I would rather explain to the Lord why I venerated His chosen, than why I denigrated her memory, especially since her veneration is in Luke 1:48.

Now, know that I was Catholic for almost two decades before the Lord revealed the truth about Mary to me. Such is God. He sends His Spirit where He wills, and when He wills. The fact that I am here, defending church teaching on Mary, is a miracle in itself.

 

[po18guy]

Originally Posted by Singinbeauty
Funny, the bible hardly mentions Mary after her involvment with Christ’s ministry beginning. You would think that if she had such a HUGE impact on christianity and the first christians she would be mentioned a whole lot more. I believe she has importance and without her, things would have been much different. BUT she is a mere human like ourselves who needed a savior as much as we do. If we put any more on her we give her a stature that isn’t suited for her. And one not intended by Christ.

It was only Mary: who was present and necessary at the Annunciation; whose words of obedience allowed the Holy Spirit to act; who visited Elizabeth while she carried John Baptist in her aged womb; who was at the Presentation on the eighth day (even though a normal woman would have been considered “unclean” under the Mosaic law and excluded from the Temple); who was directly addressed by Simeon; who was present at the wedding feast in Cana; whose words of obedience (“Do whatever he tells you”) began Christ’s public ministry; who remained with Christ throughout His teaching; who was not scattered when the Shepherd was struck; who was present at the crucifixion; who Christ Himself, in His last physical act on earth before dying (John 19:26-27), gave to the beloved disciple (John) as his mother; and who was present when the Apostles received the Holy Spirit. If all of this, as well as all that I have missed, is not evidence of her very special role in God’s final Covenant with man, what is?

Would the pure and perfect God choose sin, which He hates, to carry His Covenant to us?

Through Eve’s disobedience, mankind was lost to sin. Through Mary’s obedience, mankind was restored to God. No normal woman would have been filled with grace or chosenby God for this role. If she had sin, she would not have been full of grace.

The evidence abounds, but only if you look for it. Non-Catholics are generally not taught to look for this, but it’s there in scripture.

 

[2ndGen]

Hi

No,we do not believe in intercessory prayers.

How that Idea has come into your mind, please?

Thans

in·ter·ces·sion

1. Entreaty in favor of another, especially a prayer or petition to God in behalf of another.
2. Mediation in a dispute.

Whenever you’ve prayed for another, you’ve engaged in intercessory prayer.

 

[2ndGen]

It was only Mary: who was present and necessary at the Annunciation; whose words of obedience allowed the Holy Spirit to act; who visited Elizabeth while she carried John Baptist in her aged womb; who was at the Presentation on the eighth day (even though a normal woman would have been considered “unclean” under the Mosaic law and excluded from the Temple); who was directly addressed by Simeon; who was present at the wedding feast in Cana; whose words of obedience (“Do whatever he tells you”) began Christ’s public ministry; who remained with Christ throughout His teaching; who was not scattered when the Shepherd was struck; who was present at the crucifixion; who Christ Himself, in His last physical act on earth before dying (John 19:26-27), gave to the beloved disciple (John) as his mother; and who was present when the Apostles received the Holy Spirit. If all of this, as well as all that I have missed, is not evidence of her very special role in God’s final Covenant with man, what is?

Would the pure and perfect God choose sin, which He hates, to carry His Covenant to us?

Through Eve’s disobedience, mankind was lost to sin. Through Mary’s obedience, mankind was restored to God. No normal woman would have been filled with grace or chosenby God for this role. If she had sin, she would not have been full of grace.

The evidence abounds, but only if you look for it. Non-Catholics are generally not taught to look for this, but it’s there in scripture.