Loving Mary...

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Show me where Elizabeth called Mary the Mother of God.

Luke 1-
[39] In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah,
[40] and she entered the house of Zechari’ah and greeted Elizabeth.
[41] And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit
[42] and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
[43] And why is this granted me, that the **mother of my Lord **should come to me?

The Greek word used by the inspired writers was kurios. Throughout the Bible they were used to denote all three persons of the Holy Trinity-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Mary’s Divine motherhood is based on the teaching of the Gospels, on the writings of the Fathers, and on the express definition of the Church. St. Matthew (1:25) testifies that Mary “brought forth her first-born son” and that He was called Jesus. According to St. John (1:15) Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Word Who assumed human nature in the womb of Mary. As Mary was truly the mother of Jesus, and as Jesus was truly God from the first moment of His conception, Mary is truly the mother of God. Even the earliest Fathers did not hesitate to draw this conclusion as may be seen in the writings of St. Ignatius, St. Irenaeus, and Tertullian. The contention of Nestorius denying to Mary the title “Mother of God” was followed by the teaching of the Council of Ephesus proclaiming Mary to be Theotokos in the true sense of the word.

newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

Proper belief in Christ means understanding that Jesus was fully human AND fully divine. So according to the principle of idioms whatever can be said about Jesus’ human nature can also be said about His divine nature as well. Any Christian-whether Catholic or Protestant-confidently professes that God the Son was born to a virgin in Bethlehem. They also confidently proclaim the death of God the Son on the cross. But how can God who is immortal and eternal die much less be born to a virgin?

It follows that since Mary gave birth to Jesus-the only begotten Word of God made flesh-Mary is the mother of God.

 

[2ndGen]

no it doesnt prove anything since you failed to show this:

You said that there are not Protestant churches named after Mary. I showed that there were Muslim churches named after Mary. How did I fail in showing Muslims have more churches named after Mary than Protestants?

hear-says are meaningless. You failed.

 

[2ndGen]

Luke 1-
[39] In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah,
[40] and she entered the house of Zechari’ah and greeted Elizabeth.
[41] And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit
[42] and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
[43] And why is this granted me, that the **mother of my Lord **should come to me?

The Greek word used by the inspired writers was kurios. Throughout the Bible they were used to denote all three persons of the Holy Trinity-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Mary’s Divine motherhood is based on the teaching of the Gospels, on the writings of the Fathers, and on the express definition of the Church. St. Matthew (1:25) testifies that Mary “brought forth her first-born son” and that He was called Jesus. According to St. John (1:15) Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Word Who assumed human nature in the womb of Mary. As Mary was truly the mother of Jesus, and as Jesus was truly God from the first moment of His conception, Mary is truly the mother of God. Even the earliest Fathers did not hesitate to draw this conclusion as may be seen in the writings of St. Ignatius, St. Irenaeus, and Tertullian. The contention of Nestorius denying to Mary the title “Mother of God” was followed by the teaching of the Council of Ephesus proclaiming Mary to be Theotokos in the true sense of the word.

newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

Proper belief in Christ means understanding that Jesus was fully human AND fully divine. So according to the principle of idioms whatever can be said about Jesus’ human nature can also be said about His divine nature as well. Any Christian-whether Catholic or Protestant-confidently professes that God the Son was born to a virgin in Bethlehem. They also confidently proclaim the death of God the Son on the cross. But how can God who is immortal and eternal die much less be born to a virgin?

It follows that since Mary gave birth to Jesus-the only begotten Word of God made flesh-Mary is the mother of God.

I showed it to him 2 or 3 times already.

He’s just playing possum.

Fact is, it’s been proven to him and he’s failed to respond to the proof several times other than to say “you failed!”

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen;3210148:

Muslims would not be happy with you for calling their place of worship a “church”. Mosque, church and synagogue are not considered to be the same place by members of the respective faiths who attend each of these.

How do you know this?

The Muslims I know have no problem with us using words in English to call the house of worship that they use.

Of course, we’re not Arabics and to get upset that a person would use an English word to describe a “place” is really nothing for anyone to get unhappy about.

Nevertheless, we’re in America and in America, a house of worship is known as a church. I can’t speak about Saudi Arabia, but I was asked the question in English and so I responded in English.

In American English, a house of worship is called a “church”.

 

[2ndGen]

AgnosTheist, I am afraid you are incorrect about Muslims and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Muslims do indeed have a devotion to her. Please note the link on my previous post (#86).

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3206243&postcount=86

2ndGen, I do not believe it is useful to compare Muslims with Protestants. To say one group love someone more than another is like arguing about which cousin loves their aunt more.

And guys, this argument is going nowhere.

Maybe not to you, but I feel that I learned a lot.

And, I exposed a closet Protestant hiding behind the moniker of an atheist.

And it’s gone to a great length in that I have come to find out many new things about Muslims and their love for Mary.

Note, not one Protestant would say that they loved Mary more than Muslims. Not one Protestant could say that they saw her as Immaculately Conceived or as a Perpetual Virgin. Not one believed in her sinlessness, but Muslims do.

The question is,why not?

Why does a group of non-Christians who don’t beleive in Jesus’ divinity (although they revere Him as one of their greatest Prophets) love Mary more than some Christians…or better yet:

Why don’t Protestants love Mary as much as 1 Billion non-Believers and 1.3 Billion Christian Believers do?

 

[lak611]

lak611;3210259:

Nevertheless, we’re in America and in America, a house of worship is known as a church. I can’t speak about Saudi Arabia, but I was asked the question in English and so I responded in English.

In American English, a house of worship is called a “church”.

My Jewish friend would not like to hear that he worships in a “church”. Would you like to hear your place of worship called a “synagogue” or “temple”?

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen;3210517:

My Jewish friend would not like to hear that he worships in a “church”. Would you like to hear your place of worship called a “synagogue” or “temple”?

If I were in Spain and it was called an “iglesia”, I wouldn’t be mad.

If t were called a temple (which it is in The Bible), I wouldn’t be mad.

If it was referred to as a mosque by an Arab or a synagogue by a Jew, I wouldn’t be mad.

In fact, I’ve had Jews and Muslims tell me that our church is like what their synagogues and mosques are…“houses of worship”.

You need to find some better Jews and Muslims to hang around with. They sound too mean and nasty.

My Jewish and Muslim friends are really cool.

 

[Syele]

First there were no protestant books about Mary, now no churches named after her? Come on!

I listed some protestant books about her and you ignored that to go on about another subject. (Prayer) There are thousands Anglican and Episcopalian Churches named for Mary, A simple Google search would have told you that. (these ONLY cover the exact names in the quotes, skipping ones called something else that have her name in them)

Results 1 - 10 of about 20,700 for “St Mary’s Episcopal”

Results 1 - 10 of about 9,820 for “St Mary’s Anglican”

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,770 for “St Mary’s Baptist”.

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,170 for “St Mary’s Lutheran”

Results 1 - 2 of 2 for “St Mary’s Pentecostal”.

I’m bored of thinking up more denominations to plug in there, feel free to do it yourself if you want more. but suspecting it’s “None” can be done away with now.

Muslims may believe Mary was many things, but they miss the most important- She was the mother of our Lord Jesus, the Mother of God, chosen for that purpose because of her great faith and purity. How Blessed she was!

You didn’t even research your claims against protestants here, so I see no good reason for these accusations that Muslims love her more than I do, or that My religion has no books about her or churches named after her. Is it that you simply like to cause division and anger between Protestants and Catholics?

 

[2ndGen]

First there were no protestant books about Mary, now no churches named after her? Come on!

 

[Singinbeauty]

I said there weren’t any books on her? When?

As for churches, that’s true.

Actually it’s not. Syele pointed out that all you have to do is Google St. Mary and protestant denominations and you get a plethera of churchs named for Mary. So put your money where your mouth is (I Yahoo! searched it and got a bunch of results…) go to Google and put in the search Mary Baptist and you get a pretty good result. I got “1 - 10 of about 24,400,000 for Mary Baptist” from Yahoo…

stmarysbaptist.org
maryschapel.org
firstbaptistmaryesther.org

To name a few…

You’ve got to be kidding me right? Anglicans and Episcopalians are catholic churches (small c). Not only that, Anglicans have a letter of agreement on Marian veneration.

These two denoms are not considered catholic but protestant by most catholics. “Small c”? What does this even mean?

Baptist and Pentecostal “churches” or Baptist and Pentecostal the “events”?

Churches

The source of your information would be greatly appreciated so that I can see “where” you copied this from.

Google or Yahoo! work just great… Let your fingers do the walking and stop making claims you can’t back up…

LOL! Why do I need to research it when I can just come here, ask a question and get a Protestant to do all the research “for me”?

Because it makes you look like an ignorant fool (not calling you one but you look like one) when you don’t do research before making a claim that holds NO water whatsoever.

Nah…I just enjoy giving anti-Catholics anurysms.

I haven’t seen an anurisium… In fact I haven’t seen any reaction that remotely looks heated. You ask for proof yet are unwilling to offer it on your end except what someone ‘told’ you. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me…

I look forward to the sources (websites) from which you retrieved your “proofs”.

She said she went to Google… you have to read the posts before you respond…

(and don’t think that I didn’t know about the catholic (little c) churches named after Mary…it took long enough for someone to bring them up…but again, their being catholic churches mean that they don’t count! ).

They aren’t catholic churches and aren’t recognized by Rome as such. They are considered protestant…

 

[2ndGen]

Actually it’s not. Syele pointed out that all you have to do is Google St. Mary and protestant denominations and you get a plethera of churchs named for Mary.

 

[2ndGen]

Singingbeauty…

They aren’t catholic churches and aren’t recognized by Rome as such. They are considered protestant…

Another non-Catholic trying to tell us what Rome is/does…

Here is The Church’s teaching on “what” we consider a “catholic” church is…

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

Also, any church that recognizes The Apostles Creed is in common union with The Catholic Church provided that they use it liturgically (and not just symbolically).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles’_Creed

Here is just a small list:
The Apostles’ Creed (Latin: Symbolum Apostolorum or Symbolum Apostolicum), sometimes titled Symbol of the Apostles, is an early statement of Christian belief, a creed or “symbol.” It is widely used by a number of Christian denominations for both liturgical and catechetical purposes, most visibly by liturgical Churches of Western tradition, including the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church, Lutheranism, the Anglican Communion, and Western Orthodoxy.

 

[2ndGen]

Singinbeauty;3211634:

I did. How’d you think I got all the info for my “Protestant’s Mary” thread?

That one is a nice one. They even have Deacons, Holy Communion and Retreats (all “Catholic-Traits”). Their on their way home!

Not only that, they recognize The Archangel Raphael (whom Protestants don’t) from the book of Tobit (a book not found as scripture in Protestant bibles).

Also, they refer to a Saint called “Maryse” and it’s not a typo because they’ve repeated it several times.

Yet, they don’t have one word about The Virgin Mary on their site.

Do “Baptists” consider this seemingly “one church” group Protestants being that they pray to angels and saints for intercessions like Catholics do?

That one was named after a woman named Mary, not The Virgin Mary. Here’s a quote from the site you listed:

“G.W. Hobbs and his wife, Mary, felt there was a very real need for the church, so they gave the land which now holds Mary’s Chapel Baptist Church. The church was chartered on August 18, 1889, and named for the lady who helped start it.”

This one too is named after a woman “not the Mother of Jesus”.

Here’s a quote from that site:
“First Baptist Mary Esther is a “Spiritual Hospital” composed of a body of Christians called and set apart, empowered by the Holy spirit to meet the needs of the body, soul and spirit.”

You should read the “proofs” you provide before using them as sources. But hey, 1 out of 3 ain’t bad. Nah, I take that back…1 out of 3 “is” bad!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism#The_term_.22Catholic_Church.22

There, you’ll find the definition of the term “catholic church” in detail describing the various rites within The Church as well as those groups indirectly related to the universal Chrisitan Church (such as the Anglicans).

Well, I’ve already seen the results of Googling or Yahooing (2 churches named after women and not The Virgin Mary put up as proof ). Maybe “you” should stop making claims you can’t back up!

Look at that…hurling insults at me for doing what you accuse me of doing yourself.

Look who’s talking about “doing research”. You can’t even do research before you provide 2 churches that were named after women (not The Virgin Mary).

Maybe you should take your own advice?

Here, let me repost it for you:“Because it makes you look like an ignorant fool (not calling you one but you look like one) when you don’t do research before making a claim that holds NO water whatsoever. ”

“Because it makes you look like an ignorant fool”

Wow…if that’s you “not” being heated, I’m afraid to see what you call people when you are mad. I can only imagine!

What you call “hypocritical”, I call first hand accounts from actual practicing Muslims.

And you used what? Google and Yahoo search engines and “STILL” came up short?



Google is not a source. It is a search engine that you yourself provides hundreds of thousands fo results.

A source is the actual website from which they got that information. That’s like me using a quote from a book. When you ask me what book, I say one in the library.

And after your two out of three “misrepresentations”…maybe “you” should read the sources “before you respond”.

 

[2ndGen]

Singinbeauty;3211634:

I did. How’d you think I got all the info for my “Protestant’s Mary” thread?

That one is a nice one. They even have Deacons, Holy Communion and Retreats (all “Catholic-Traits”). Their on their way home!

Not only that, they recognize The Archangel Raphael (whom Protestants don’t) from the book of Tobit (a book not found as scripture in Protestant bibles).

Also, they refer to a Saint called “Maryse” and it’s not a typo because they’ve repeated it several times.

Yet, they don’t have one word about The Virgin Mary on their site.

Do “Baptists” consider this seemingly “one church” group Protestants being that they pray to angels and saints for intercessions like Catholics do?

That one was named after a woman named Mary, not The Virgin Mary. Here’s a quote from the site you listed:

“G.W. Hobbs and his wife, Mary, felt there was a very real need for the church, so they gave the land which now holds Mary’s Chapel Baptist Church. The church was chartered on August 18, 1889, and named for the lady who helped start it.”

This one too is named after a woman “not the Mother of Jesus”.

Here’s a quote from that site:
“First Baptist Mary Esther is a “Spiritual Hospital” composed of a body of Christians called and set apart, empowered by the Holy spirit to meet the needs of the body, soul and spirit.”

You should read the “proofs” you provide before using them as sources. But hey, 1 out of 3 ain’t bad. Nah, I take that back…1 out of 3 “is” bad!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism#The_term_.22Catholic_Church.22

There, you’ll find the definition of the term “catholic church” in detail describing the various rites within The Church as well as those groups indirectly related to the universal Chrisitan Church (such as the Anglicans).

Well, I’ve already seen the results of Googling or Yahooing (2 churches named after women and not The Virgin Mary put up as proof ). Maybe “you” should stop making claims you can’t back up!

Look at that…hurling insults at me for doing what you accuse me of doing yourself.

Look who’s talking about “doing research”. You can’t even do research before you provide 2 churches that were named after women (not The Virgin Mary).

Maybe you should take your own advice?

Here, let me repost it for you:“Because it makes you look like an ignorant fool (not calling you one but you look like one) when you don’t do research before making a claim that holds NO water whatsoever. ”

“Because it makes you look like an ignorant fool”

Wow…if that’s you “not” being heated, I’m afraid to see what you call people when you are mad. I can only imagine!

What you call “hypocritical”, I call first hand accounts from actual practicing Muslims.

And you used what? Google and Yahoo search engines and “STILL” came up short?



Google is not a source. It is a search engine that you yourself provides hundreds of thousands fo results.

A source is the actual website from which they got that information. That’s like me using a quote from a book. When you ask me what book, I say one in the library.

And after your two out of three “misrepresentations”…maybe “you” should read the sources “before you respond”.

 

[2ndGen]

Plus, that Saint Mary’s Baptist Church recognizes The Archangel Raphael (whom Protestants don’t) from the book of Tobit (a book not found as scripture in Protestant bibles).

Also, they refer to a Saint called “Maryse” and it’s not a typo because they’ve repeated it several times.

Yet, they don’t have one word about The Virgin Mary on their site.

Do “Baptists” consider this seemingly “one church” group Protestants being that they pray to angels and saints for intercessions like Catholics do?

 

[Singinbeauty]

I did. How’d you think I got all the info for my “Protestant’s Mary” thread?

You didn’t look hard enough then. You state there there is NO protestant church named for Mary.

That one is a nice one. They even have Deacons, Holy Communion and Retreats (all “Catholic-Traits”). Their on their way home!

Still they are protestant, better yet the almost sworn enemy for catholics, baptists!!!

Admittadly I didn’t do my home work here and for this I apologize. Proven wrong it will make me look a little harder next time. But I did what I was out to do. I proved you wrong by showing at least ONE protestant church named for Mary. Mother of our Lord.

You should read the “proofs” you provide before using them as sources. But hey, 1 out of 3 ain’t bad. Nah, I take that back…1 out of 3 “is” bad!

1 out of 3 is bad??? So EVERY catholic church is named for Mary? How many do you need to be named for her for it to not be bad? You showed that one muslim mosque was named for her and you praise all muslims. I show you one that is christian and named for her and you can’t admit you are wrong…

Well, I’ve already seen the results of Googling or Yahooing (2 churches named after women and not The Virgin Mary put up as proof ). Maybe “you” should stop making claims you can’t back up!

greatersaintmarybc.com
stmaryslutheran.org
saintmarylutheran.org

You get the point… You said there are NONE… I just had to show you one, which I did, but I thought I would show you more…

Look at that…hurling insults at me for doing what you accuse me of doing yourself.

No insult intended. I specifically said I wasn’t calling you one, just saying your ignorant statements make you LOOK like one. There is a HUGE difference… Sorry if I offended you, it was not intentional.

Look who’s talking about “doing research”. You can’t even do research before you provide 2 churches that were named after women (not The Virgin Mary).
Maybe you should take your own advice?

Still, you said there were NONE, after a very quick search I got one… then above I got more. Your argument still holds no water whatsoever.

Here, let me repost it for you:“Because it makes you look like an ignorant fool (not calling you one but you look like one) when you don’t do research before making a claim that holds NO water whatsoever. ”

See above…

Wow…if that’s you “not” being heated, I’m afraid to see what you call people when you are mad. I can only imagine!

No, never heated. At least not here. Remember, I made it a point to say that I wasn’t calling YOU that, just telling you that your unfounded and ignorant statements made you LOOK like one.

What you call “hypocritical”, I call first hand accounts from actual practicing Muslims.

Show proof then that protestants don’t name their churches after Mary. You say you don’t need to show proof but then demand it from those who debate your assertions. That is hypocritical.

And you used what? Google and Yahoo search engines and “STILL” came up short?

How? YOU said that there were NO protestant churches named for Mary. I showed at least one (and more above) so how is that ‘short’? I still showed you were wrong.

Google is not a source. It is a search engine that you yourself provides hundreds of thousands fo results.

I gave you a site in my previous post and on this one that came from a Yahoo! search so I would say that a search engine is a source. Just because you didn’t want to go look isn’t our fault.

And after your two out of three “misrepresentations”…maybe “you” should read the sources “before you respond”.

Yes, I should. But before you make claims that can’t be supported you should do your homework.

 

[2ndGen]

Results 1 - 2 of 2 for “St Mary’s Pentecostal”.

I eliminated the others for their “catholic” church common union (Episcopalian, Lutheran, etc…).

Waiting for response on Saint Mary’s Baptist church being considered “Protestant” since they pray to saints and use a Catholic Bible.

And as far as the Saint Mary’s Pentecostal Church goes…it’s a Catholic Church (Pentecosalism isn’t a church, but a movement such as Methodism or Charimaticism):

Catholic Canada - St. Mary’s Cathedral Catholic Pentecostal Praise …The Diplomatic Society of the Knights of St. Gabriel - Washington State … St. Mary’s Cathedral Catholic Pentecostal Praise Meeting - Australia …
catholicanada.com/web/index.php?option=com_mtree&task=viewlink

catholicanada.com/web/index.php?option=com_mtree&task=viewlink&link_id=21&Itemid=27

 

[Singinbeauty]

I eliminated the others for their “catholic” church common union (Episcopalian, Lutheran, etc…).

Lutheran ISN’T protestant?!?! I think that is going be quite a big surprise to many catholics since it is a church that follows after Martin Luther’s ideas and beliefs.

Waiting for response on Saint Mary’s Baptist church being considered “Protestant” since they pray to saints and use a Catholic Bible.

They are BAPTIST their name even shows they are not catholic. I guess the fact that they are so close to the catholic faith confuses you but this does happen. Even in protestant communities.

And as far as the Saint Mary’s Pentecostal Church goes…it’s a Catholic Church (Pentecosalism isn’t a church, but a movement such as Methodism or Charimaticism):

Catholic Canada - St. Mary’s Cathedral Catholic Pentecostal Praise …The Diplomatic Society of the Knights of St. Gabriel - Washington State … St. Mary’s Cathedral Catholic Pentecostal Praise Meeting - Australia …
catholicanada.com/web/index.php?option=com_mtree&task=viewlink

catholicanada.com/web/index.php?option=com_mtree&task=viewlink&link_id=21&Itemid=27

Are they considered catholic by the Roman community? Do they follow the Pope?

See, it doesn’t make no never mind to me. I guess we are just arguing over small ideas and miscommunications. If you are christian then I leave ya to be because you are my brother. You still haven’t admitted you were wrong.

 

[2ndGen]

You didn’t look hard enough then. You state there there is NO protestant church named for Mary.

There aren’t. You provided “one” church and that one is questionable since they use Catholic Bibles and Catholic practices.

The other two you provided as proof weren’t even named after The Virgin Mary.

Still they are protestant, better yet the almost

 

[lak611]

There aren’t. You provided “one” church and that one is questionable since they use Catholic Bibles and Catholic practices.