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Usige
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So is stressing out about spending $700,000 for the privilege of living in places like DC, NYC, or SF.
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AClaire11
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Touché
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Xantippe
Guest
Funny!
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Usige
Guest
I hope you know I’m not trying to pick on you (or anyone else).Touché
Really what I am trying to get at is it comes down to choices and tradeoffs. We moved from being 4 miles from my work to about 35 miles out where housing costs were better. We cut down on convenience foods to stretch our budget. Not everyone can or will, but it bothers me when people say “no this can’t be done” when there obviously are people that have figured it out. I don’t really care if someone doesn’t want to make the choices we did, but I do think it’s important that people don’t state something is impossible simply because they chose not to make those same sacrifices.
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rainereli_rod
Guest
**Psalm 127:3-5
**Children are a gift from the LORD; they are a reward from him. Children born to a young man are like arrows in a warrior’s hands. How joyful is the man whose quiver is full of them! He will not be put to shame when he confronts his accusers at the city gates.
**Psalm 113:9
***He gives the childless woman a family, making her a happy mother. Praise the LORD!
*
**Genesis 33:5
***Then Esau looked at the women and children and asked, “Who are these people with you?”
“These are the children God has graciously given to me, your servant,” Jacob replied.
*
**Psalm 128:1-6
***How joyful are those who fear the LORD - all who follow his ways!
You will enjoy the fruit of your labor. How joyful and prosperous you will be!
Your wife will be like a fruitful grapevine, flourishing within your home *
[Psalm 128:3].
Your children will be like vigorous young olive trees as they sit around your table. That is the LORD’s blessing for those who fear him.
Ok brother let just pray , a calamity can be over us soon, specially in Europe , others are stealing the blessing that is rightfully ours. May God grant us understanding.
pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/23/why-muslims-are-the-worlds-fastest-growing-religious-group/
*While the world’s population is projected to grow 35% in the coming decades, the number of Muslims is expected to increase by 73%
*
Each Muslim woman has an average of 3.1 children, significantly above the next-highest group (Christians at 2.7) and the average of all non-Muslims (2.3). In all major regions where there is a sizable Muslim population, Muslim fertility exceeds non-Muslim fertility.
**Children are a gift from the LORD; they are a reward from him. Children born to a young man are like arrows in a warrior’s hands. How joyful is the man whose quiver is full of them! He will not be put to shame when he confronts his accusers at the city gates.
**Psalm 113:9
***He gives the childless woman a family, making her a happy mother. Praise the LORD!
*
**Genesis 33:5
***Then Esau looked at the women and children and asked, “Who are these people with you?”
“These are the children God has graciously given to me, your servant,” Jacob replied.
*
**Psalm 128:1-6
***How joyful are those who fear the LORD - all who follow his ways!
You will enjoy the fruit of your labor. How joyful and prosperous you will be!
Your wife will be like a fruitful grapevine, flourishing within your home *
[Psalm 128:3].
Your children will be like vigorous young olive trees as they sit around your table. That is the LORD’s blessing for those who fear him.
Ok brother let just pray , a calamity can be over us soon, specially in Europe , others are stealing the blessing that is rightfully ours. May God grant us understanding.
pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/23/why-muslims-are-the-worlds-fastest-growing-religious-group/
*While the world’s population is projected to grow 35% in the coming decades, the number of Muslims is expected to increase by 73%
*
Each Muslim woman has an average of 3.1 children, significantly above the next-highest group (Christians at 2.7) and the average of all non-Muslims (2.3). In all major regions where there is a sizable Muslim population, Muslim fertility exceeds non-Muslim fertility.
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AClaire11
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LikewiseI hope you know I’m not trying to pick on you (or anyone else).
Really what I am trying to get at is it comes down to choices and tradeoffs. We moved from being 4 miles from my work to about 35 miles out where housing costs were better. We cut down on convenience foods to stretch our budget. Not everyone can or will, but it bothers me when people say “no this can’t be done” when there obviously are people that have figured it out. I don’t really care if someone doesn’t want to make the choices we did, but I do think it’s important that people don’t state something is impossible simply because they chose not to make those same sacrifices.
Hopefully once my husband finishes his MPA, he’ll start getting job offers from out of state and we’ll be able to move somewhere cheaper! Though I’ll be sad to leave the coast, since I’ve lived on the East Coast for almost all of my life.
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Xantippe
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It does seem to involve having really, really good health insurance and very stable employment…I hope you know I’m not trying to pick on you (or anyone else).
Really what I am trying to get at is it comes down to choices and tradeoffs. We moved from being 4 miles from my work to about 35 miles out where housing costs were better. We cut down on convenience foods to stretch our budget. Not everyone can or will, but it bothers me when people say “no this can’t be done” when there obviously are people that have figured it out. I don’t really care if someone doesn’t want to make the choices we did, but I do think it’s important that people don’t state something is impossible simply because they chose not to make those same sacrifices.
Or medical and dental neglect–which is also a thing. My parents raised “just” three kids without any kind of health or dental insurance and they did a lot of things that looking back, I think were a really bad idea. A lot of corners got cut that shouldn’t have gotten cut–like we generally did not see the doctor even when we should have.
I think my dad was under a lot of illusions about what exactly it cost to raise a family, and if other people had not picked up some of his slack (given us a place to live when times were tough, bought us shoes, made sure that birthdays and Christmas happened), things would have been very bad and sad.
As it was, I had quite a happy childhood–but I owe a great deal to my grandparents.
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bitterhope
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You know it’s very hard to understand how families with 3 or less kids take $50 a day to feed them. We cook 3 meals a day, every single day. We never feel hunger. My teens especially eat A LOT, and our grocery bill has never exceeded $500 a month (about $17 a day). And that’s with a family of 10 big eaters. No, we don’t have food bank trips or food stamps or anything like that to help out. We do grow some of our food (and I stress SOME), we rarely buy eggs because we have chickens, but mostly it’s because we buy only healthy things to eat. We don’t keep soft drinks or chips, candy or anything like that. We are choosy about what we put in the cart, but we eat well. Tons of tamales, beans, tortillas, salsa, chorizo. Nothing bland or tasteless here. We eat more vegetables than fruit, more fruit than meat, and we eat fish twice a week. We rarely eat out and if we do it’s usually a Chinese buffet. The most unhealthy things we always have on hand are ice cream cones and whipped cream. My kids fill the cones with fruit and cereal, top it with whipped cream, and that’s their favorite snack. My youngest calls it breakfast in a cup. We have dessert on Sundays. Usually it’s canned fruit cocktail with extra cherries or it might be canned tropical fruit. Occasionally we make flan or pies from scratch. Birthdays and holidays are huge meals with more meat than sides and desserts of various types. My kids don’t like cake as much as brownies and pies so usually that’s what we make for their birthdays. It really isn’t expensive to eat well if people are willing to put in the effort to cook from scratch. I love cooking and now that my teens cook it’s even less frequent that we go out, but even when they were all small we ate our maybe once every three to six months. We also usually have at least four other people at the dinner table. The kids’ friends or the ones I babysit are frequently here for at least one or two meals a day. My husband brings his breakfast and lunch to work with him. He brews his own coffee at his desk. That saves a ton of money! At home we drink water mostly but also coffee, tea or maybe koolaid. We don’t deprive ourselves of good food and drink. Milk is the one thing I highly regulate at home because the kids don’t eat if they drink too much, and the love milk. One of my neighbors has goats and the kids want us to get them because they love goat milk too, but I won’t let them drink that much milk even if it were free. They are just like me–lactose intolerant and bloat severely which kills their appetite. I don’t preserve or freeze food so summer garden only helps keep summer groceries below $500 a month, and maybe part of fall. Winter and spring remain at or near the $500 mark each month. Like I said, if people truly want to have a large family they find the way to make it work. It’s not something everybody WANTS to do, but it isn’t something only a select few CAN do. There is a difference. And no, I don’t think it’s necessary to have a large family in order to achieve heaven.
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pensmama87
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Where do you live?
Because I do the same thing, and it is cheaper than convenience food, but it ain’t as cheap as you say it is - and I thought I lived in an area with low cost of living!
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AClaire11
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I think this is also somewhat location based. My friends and I have compared grocery store prices and mine are sometimes twice as high! We try to shop very frugally and make a lot from scratch, but grocery bills are still usually at least $60-70 or higher each week for the two of us.
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ThePCWife
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I don’t say “this can’t be done”. I say “there’s a reason people aren’t doing it in very large numbers.”I hope you know I’m not trying to pick on you (or anyone else).
Really what I am trying to get at is it comes down to choices and tradeoffs. We moved from being 4 miles from my work to about 35 miles out where housing costs were better. We cut down on convenience foods to stretch our budget. Not everyone can or will, but it bothers me when people say “no this can’t be done” when there obviously are people that have figured it out. I don’t really care if someone doesn’t want to make the choices we did, but I do think it’s important that people don’t state something is impossible simply because they chose not to make those same sacrifices.
Just because 1 woman in 1000 does the things your household does to have seven kids doesn’t mean that something is wrong with the other 999 women not doing that. Having seven kids or whatever hasn’t even been typical in America, like, ever.
Most people can’t marry young, they aren’t around marriageable people until their middle 20s or early 30s. Many of those that do are no longer taught the kinds of skills that let them believe beans, corn and heavily seasoned ground meat are foods everyone can thrive on just because it’s what they do to afford a baseball team’s worth of kids.
Married women are having 3-4 kids more and more. That’s wonderful. I want to make it easier for them and for some of them to be able to try for more if they and their husbands are able to do that rather than seeing their health and spirits break because they’re trying to do something they have no secret or special wealth to do.
My family can’t live on beans at all. We also can’t have most kinds of cereals, grains and wheat or corn. Makes us all very ill. So we have to make other food choices. We also don’t live where local food is cheaper, since it’s all local or at least regional. We eat almost nothing that didn’t come from down the road, but the sellers never got the memo that they were supposed to knock their prices down for us, so we pay what everyone else pays and it’s…10-20 per day for the kids, sometimes more (ah, summertime, when the growing is extensive and the grocery bill ain’t easy).
Good health is secret wealth. A talent or simply childhood or professional experience cooking for large groups is secret wealth. Ability to get jobs with gold-plated health insurance is secret wealth. Loving relationships where people endlessly give you clothing for your kids is secret wealth. Having blessings is lovely, but telling people to do what you do when they haven’t got those blessings is not going to lead to sane, good or loving places for them and theirs.
People can, in the current mostly atomized, isolated world, figure out how to get money a lot of the time easier than they can create social capital out of nothing.
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UbiCaritas
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Indeed.
Let’s take milk as just one example. A new friend recently moved into the neighborhood (suburban-near-a-big-city) here in Texas. When I asked her how it compared to her previous state, she exclaimed that in milk alone she was saving a ridiculous amount. I knew she had three kids, but was a tad confused as to how milk was such a huge line item on her grocery list…until she explained that she was dropping nearly $8/gallon where she used to live, while here, it’s $2/gallon at most chain grocers.
Egads.
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bitterhope
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Location does matter. Our groceries in DC were the exact same as here now; however, we’ve gone from six to eight kids since moving, and one of the six was tiny. So yes, it has gotten cheaper since the move. Still, we were able to eat very well on very little. It matters much more what you pick to cook from scratch than it does where you pick it. Some things are very cheap regardless of location (dried beans, lentils, rice, pasta, corn meal, flour, dried milk, maseca, dried chiles, etc). It’s much easier to find out how much you can spend and working your budget around that instead of bargain hunting. I rarely use coupons because they never have coupons for the things I buy and I end up spending more in order to use the coupons. One store I go to sometimes gives coupons off total order regardless of what we buy and I do use those. Another thing to keep in mind is that if I had more money to spend on groceries I would. I don’t seek out to be frugal just for the sake of being frugal. We only have $500 a month free to spend on groceries so that is my limit. It’s amazing how creative you can become when a situation arises that requires creative thinking to overcome.
Nothing I’ve posted is meant to come across as better than anyone else. I think it’s important for others to know that there are options and ways to make dreams come true if you truly want this. Big families are a blessing, not something that can only be successfully raised in select locations, by the wealthy, or under special circumstances. It isn’t something to be feared or a reason to be worried. It doesn’t take anything truly unusual, all it takes is love and devotion. That’s the exact same thing it takes to raise one child, have a happy marriage, or just simply live a good Catholic life. We aren’t better than any other families. Some are being raised by neglectful, bad, abusive parents, but so are many only children. Some well off parents are neglectful and abusive. Medical neglect isn’t a poor people thing. Most poor parents ensure adequate well child checks to help prevent more expensive visits. Most cherish their children because it’s all we’ve got. It does get old hearing the same accusations that have nothing to do with family size or income but instead everything to do with parenting choices.
No one has to seek out a large family. No one is required to have any children at all. There are far too many misconceptions about large families and the reasons people have them. This past month has been particularly trying here in real life. I’m so glad I have my husband and seven of my awesome kids to help out, hug, hang out, and just enjoy togetherness. I’m stuck in bed for a while so school has taken place in my bed room or on the couch. Big kids wrangle little ones. They cook and sort of clean. If I only had little kids I would truly be in a bad position at the moment. But having had my oldest set at 18, 19, 20, they are big enough to really be helpers at the moment and they are big enough they understand instead of being insulted. My oldest calls daily so we have been able to talk uninterrupted. Like I said before, it’s important to make adjustments in life as needed. This is not my ideal way to live, but this is where I am at the moment.
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AClaire11
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If you don’t mind me asking, were you living on base in the DC area? If not, how difficult was it finding a place to rent with such a large family?
I’m not trying to be difficult or argumentative, but in a place where two bedroom apartments have occupancy limits of 4 people and are $1750 a month plus utilities, fees, etc for something semi decent and $1575 for something pretty bad, it’s very difficult to raise a large family unless you are able to buy a house. Being able to live on base makes a HUGE difference, as does Tricare.
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bitterhope
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We never did get into housing. We moved from Europe and got in the list (27 month wait!!!) but we had orders before we got post housing. We rented in Virginia. Tricare does help. Part of what I was saying about making choices and adjustments to make things possible. We got out of active duty but went back mostly for the Tricare. Other people are able to get great coverage through their employers.
This article is old, but thought you might find it interesting.
washingtonpost.com/local/education/how-a-dc-area-family-with-11-children-ages-12-through-1-makes-it-work/2011/07/26/gIQAROAk6I_story.html
We might move back to DC soon. My husband for sure is going but I’m waiting here until little one is born. We will decide then if the kids and I join him there or if we wait until his next assignment. He should be in DC for three years this time. Most likely if we move, we will move to WV this time. My husband will most likely only be home occasionally. Most of his job will be TDY to various locations if it’s like the last time he was there. That’s the main reason I’m thinking of just staying put here. We would end up seeing him just as much as we would if we move just about. Right now just trying to decide what’s the better option for our family.
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Xantippe
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I don’t know if you noticed this, but the numbers you give are very unlike Usige’s.
He’s claiming much smaller numbers than you are. Your daily average is something like $1.70 per person. He’s claiming to be feeding kids 0-12 on $10-$20 a month–so 33 cents a day to 67 cents a day each.
Now, your crew is probably older than his and hence eats more, but nonetheless, he is claiming to spend 1/3 as much as you do.
Hence the general skepticism for Usige’s numbers.
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Xantippe
Guest
It’s unfortunately common for people with poor or no insurance to cut corners on healthcare.
It’s wonderful that you have not seen this yourself–but I have. When I was a kid, a doctor’s visit was $100 out-of-pocket, so we very, very rarely saw the doctor, even when sick or injured. Now that I’ve been a mom for 14 years, I find that scandalous, but that’s how it was.
My parents (especially my dad) believed all the stuff that you and Usige have been saying about frugal living, but it really wasn’t true. Unfortunately, you can’t just magic up money to pay real doctors by buying in bulk or cooking from scratch…Medical care requires either really good insurance or cash money.
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bitterhope
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But if that’s what’s available in his budget that may be all he spends. I really don’t know because it’s not my family, but I know for sure my husband has no clue what it takes to feed us all. Both the cost and the amount. He’s been trying to help with that since my last surgery but finally agreed to take our older kids to help him out with it. That being said there is no way I could tell you about his job or do it like he does either. Also our food budget is the same with one less kid at home. We still spend the same and leftovers aren’t happening. We really do adjust for what we’ve got and what we need.
I remember listening to Mother Angelica Live about 5 or 6 years ago and she was talking about “multiplication miracles.” She had a story about her convent fixing chicken for unexpected guests and ending up with tons of leftovers. A caller told a story about leaving an abusive spouse and driving across country with her daughter on $20 for gas and food. Somehow they made it. I can honestly say I’ve seen these types of things happen in my own life and therefore it’s not as shocking to me when others experience them.
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bitterhope
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Many families even now with Obama care don’t have insurance. The Amish don’t do insurance. None are avoiding medical care. Drs cut prices for cash patients, especially when paid upfront. Doctors accept payment plans. Drs and ERs don’t turn sick/injured people out for lack of money. We’ve gone the no insurance route ourselves (BIG part of why we deal with the army) so I do understand how hard it is. But still, true medical neglect is a parenting choice, not due to income or family size.
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bitterhope
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One last thing on medical care for struggling families. Nearly everywhere has free/reduced price primary care clinics, usually run by Catholic hospitals or university hospitals. Some are independently run. These clinics also refer to specialists at free/reduced prices. If (name removed by moderator)atient or ER care is needed, all states have programs to reduce or dismiss bills for families or individuals that qualify. Even if a person doesn’t qualify, when bills are paid on time in small monthly amounts, normally hospitals write off a significant portion of the bill once the “insurance” or “Medicaid/Medicare” payment amount is covered. All it takes is communication with the billing office, responsibly making agreed upon payments or contacting them for other arrangements, and actively seeking help and advice if needed. Health depts are another resource available for medical care even when there are no free clinics around or if a family doesn’t qualify for the free clinic. There are even programs to help with prescription costs for most medicines. Dental care is harder to come by. Even in the military, Tricare dental and vision are not that great. For the active duty personnel it is all free, but dependents are still outrageously priced. Thankfully most of my kids have great teeth. I don’t. I’m looking at over $1,000 out of pocket before I can get mine cared for. Dentists are just expensive, but there are limited options there too. Dental schools offer free/reduced prices for those with no dental insurance. I don’t qualify here because of Tricare dental, but some areas everyone qualifies. Some places have mobile clinics for cleaning and referrals for reduced price or free care elsewhere if needed. Other agencies, such as St. Vincent de Paul and Catholic Charities, also have resources available. The Knights of Columbus also help find care. Several Knights are doctors and willing to see patients who are struggling. Qualifying for welfare isn’t the only way to afford medical care, but many times medical cards are available in special circumstances for families in crisis (premature infants, severe illness or accidents, that kind of stuff) even for families that have great insurance (including Tricare). In the US, medical care is available to everyone whether or not we choose to take advantage of it. Please don’t let finances prevent you from seeking care if you or your child needs it.
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