Low birth rates

[Rosebud77]

Fascinated by all of this. I am in Ireland, living on a basic pension from the UK and get free health care on the Medical Card scheme here. Very very rare that I see a doctor.By choice

I used to post on an Irish forum, but they were shocked at the simplicity I live as Irish folk LOVE grumbling and complaining about especially what they call " poverty" here.

Wish they could read some of your posts, or maybe not as I got drummed out of the forum so many times I gave up.

The crunch came when I said I rarely spend more than a euro on any meal. And am well fed, perfectly nourished and happy with that. Even though I now have so many problems with various foods.

Sometimes it becomes a kind of almost snobbery to boast of how much folk hee spend on food etc.

Yesterday my main meal cost around 50 cents. Most of a large sweet potato, a few slices of cheese ( that was a gift actually but i can get a huge block for E4. ) and a little gravy.

The day before I was extravagant! A whole E2! reduced price ready meal…

I shop carefully and skilfully. Most of the big shops here have a “reduced” counter. Still within date but near. And bread counters do the same. And they also always have fruit and vegetables on special and basics “own label” are inexpensive.

And yep. I have “treats”: these are essential! But they are simple enough. A bar of Cadburys does it! LOVE cake too…

I never eat out. ever. Take a flask when I am out for the day. Nor do I drink or smoke. ah well I very occasionally make a bottle of Irish cream but that is cheap enough. Lasts a long time!

I don;t have a set budget; my lifestyle is that anything I do not spend goes to family working with abandoned babies in India and Nepal. If i have money left in my account I am not doing right!

Applauding those here who do so well on little…I lived many years with hens, Jacobs sheep for wool , growing my own vegetables and a goat for milk and cheese… still have a few potatoes etc but moving so often it has broken my heart to leave my gardens.

 

[Lea101]

One last thing on medical care for struggling families. Nearly everywhere has free/reduced price primary care clinics, usually run by Catholic hospitals or university hospitals. Some are independently run. These clinics also refer to specialists at free/reduced prices. If (name removed by moderator)atient or ER care is needed, all states have programs to reduce or dismiss bills for families or individuals that qualify. Even if a person doesn’t qualify, when bills are paid on time in small monthly amounts, normally hospitals write off a significant portion of the bill once the “insurance” or “Medicaid/Medicare” payment amount is covered. All it takes is communication with the billing office, responsibly making agreed upon payments or contacting them for other arrangements, and actively seeking help and advice if needed. Health depts are another resource available for medical care even when there are no free clinics around or if a family doesn’t qualify for the free clinic. There are even programs to help with prescription costs for most medicines. Dental care is harder to come by. Even in the military, Tricare dental and vision are not that great. For the active duty personnel it is all free, but dependents are still outrageously priced. Thankfully most of my kids have great teeth. I don’t. I’m looking at over $1,000 out of pocket before I can get mine cared for. Dentists are just expensive, but there are limited options there too. Dental schools offer free/reduced prices for those with no dental insurance. I don’t qualify here because of Tricare dental, but some areas everyone qualifies. Some places have mobile clinics for cleaning and referrals for reduced price or free care elsewhere if needed. Other agencies, such as St. Vincent de Paul and Catholic Charities, also have resources available. The Knights of Columbus also help find care. Several Knights are doctors and willing to see patients who are struggling. Qualifying for welfare isn’t the only way to afford medical care, but many times medical cards are available in special circumstances for families in crisis (premature infants, severe illness or accidents, that kind of stuff) even for families that have great insurance (including Tricare). In the US, medical care is available to everyone whether or not we choose to take advantage of it. Please don’t let finances prevent you from seeking care if you or your child needs it.

I got hit by a car last year and my bill came around 200-300 (no overnight stay). I’m sure the original cost was a lot higher and I was very thankful. Although my dad grumbled about how we didn’t have to go the doctor/I could have just be ‘more careful’. (I didn’t have injuries that were life threatening, yay)

The government here is now keen on making healthcare more affordable, though. Thank God

 

[Usige]

I don’t know if you noticed this, but the numbers you give are very unlike Usige’s.

He’s claiming much smaller numbers than you are. Your daily average is something like $1.70 per person. He’s claiming to be feeding kids 0-12 on $10-$20 a month–so 33 cents a day to 67 cents a day each.

Now, your crew is probably older than his and hence eats more, but nonetheless, he is claiming to spend 1/3 as much as you do.

Hence the general skepticism for Usige’s numbers.

I’m not sure where you are getting $10-20/month. I said it was $400-800 per year additional. That is above and beyond what my wife and I were already paying in groceries, healthcare, and household expenses. This is based on looking at our year over year increases for those categories over the last 5 years and accounting for 3 extra kids.

Roughly 75% of that is for food so that is $25-50/month. Most of the stuff we buy is roughly 25-60% of retail. Even the bulk processed stuff we but is at about 65-80% retail. It cost us perhaps 45-60 cents to make a loaf of bread. The store is around $1.70 - 2.50. We also weigh our dry ingredients instead of dipping measuring cups which yields about 25-30% more per pound of things like flour. My wife and I were talking about it last night and our per serving cost of most things are between .30 - 1.30 per meal. On average we spend about $53 per month per kid (or about $1.70 per day). This is on top of the $350 my wife and I used to spend for ourselves (a lot of convenience foods and wastage). Even if we evenly redistribute the cost, that is $80 per person per month. This is far below the $10 per diem some other are talking about.

We also talked about any hidden costs that I might have missed (i.e. change in car payments from the minivan to suburban, additional water and electricity for cooking, et cetera). Even if my estimate was low by half we would be looking at 800-1600/kid per year above and beyond our base living expenses. That is less than half the $10 per diem others mentioned just for food. Even my 2 adult kids aren’t regularly costing me $10/day in food.

Despite what some imply, we don’t scrimp on medical or dental. My kids don’t wear rags or have all their clothes given to them. We have never been on WIC, public assistance, or received food from the food bank. We actually give significant amounts we save back to charity.

Yes, we have good medical and dental coverage. I consider the total cost of these thing before I consider salary when looking for a job. We cook many things from scratch because my wife and oldest daughters enjoy baking and cooking. We are prudent on when to go to the ER vs urgent care vs waiting for a regular doctor’s appointment or simply fixing things at home. I repair many things myself instead of replacing them or calling a repair man because I like knowing how things work.

None of this is saying that how we chose to live is better than others. If someone wants to spend $5000 per person each year on food and $800 a year for a new wardrobe then that is their choice. At the same time it is possible to live less expensively if you chose to do so.

Some may say we are simply blessed and I would agree to a point. But many of our blessings are also supported by choices and taking opportunities when presented. I have a good job because I made plans on job growth, unemployment rates, education costs, et cetera. I sat down and figured out the best growth for the lowest educational costs. I didn’t sit down and go “I’d love to do X” and then bemoan the costs of paying back 10s of thousands in student loans to make 40k per year. I frankly do not enjoy my job or the company I work for, but it provides my family with what we require to live. It is a compromise that I am willing to make for my family. The same goes for how we spend money on food, clothes, et cetera. We determine what we want to do for charity and our family and then try to figure out how to make it happen.

Just as some say that I grossly underestimate the cost, I feel people grossly overestimate the cost of raising kids. Maybe 1,500 per year is not doable for someone’s circumstances. If you only have one or two it is unlikely you could because many costs are not shared across a larger number of people. But by the same token, I don’t think that 6-10,000/year is normal unless you live in extremely high costs areas and include many “nice to haves” as requirements.

My whole beef is that people take the high estimate (or a bad year) and project that over a 20-25 year span as the norm. They then use that to say, it cost $300,000 to raise each kid so we can’t afford more than one. Yes, be prudent in trying to figure out if you can support another child, but don’t assume that the cost of raising a national champion soccer playing virtuoso pianist from Manhattan is going to apply to raising a kid who plays soccer with his friends in Kansas City.

 

[ThePCWife]

I’m not sure where you are getting $10-20/month. I said it was $400-800 per year additional. That is above and beyond what my wife and I were already paying in groceries, healthcare, and household expenses. This is based on looking at our year over year increases for those categories over the last 5 years and accounting for 3 extra kids.

Roughly 75% of that is for food so that is $25-50/month. Most of the stuff we buy is roughly 25-60% of retail. Even the bulk processed stuff we but is at about 65-80% retail. It cost us perhaps 45-60 cents to make a loaf of bread. The store is around $1.70 - 2.50. We also weigh our dry ingredients instead of dipping measuring cups which yields about 25-30% more per pound of things like flour. My wife and I were talking about it last night and our per serving cost of most things are between .30 - 1.30 per meal. On average we spend about $53 per month per kid (or about $1.70 per day). This is on top of the $350 my wife and I used to spend for ourselves (a lot of convenience foods and wastage). Even if we evenly redistribute the cost, that is $80 per person per month. This is far below the $10 per diem some other are talking about.

We also talked about any hidden costs that I might have missed (i.e. change in car payments from the minivan to suburban, additional water and electricity for cooking, et cetera). Even if my estimate was low by half we would be looking at 800-1600/kid per year above and beyond our base living expenses. That is less than half the $10 per diem others mentioned just for food. Even my 2 adult kids aren’t regularly costing me $10/day in food.

Yes, we have good medical and dental coverage. I consider the total cost of these thing before I consider salary when looking for a job. We cook many things from scratch because my wife and oldest daughters enjoy baking and cooking. We are prudent on when to go to the ER vs urgent care vs waiting for a regular doctor’s appointment or simply fixing things at home. I repair many things myself instead of replacing them or calling a repair man because I like knowing how things work.

None of this is saying that how we chose to live is better than others. If someone wants to spend $5000 per person each year on food and $800 a year for a new wardrobe then that is their choice. At the same time it is possible to live less expensively if you chose to do so.

Just as some say that I grossly underestimate the cost, I feel people grossly overestimate the cost of raising kids. Maybe 1,500 per year is not doable for someone’s circumstances. If you only have one or two it is unlikely you could because many costs are not shared across a larger number of people. But by the same token, I don’t think that 6-10,000/year is normal unless you live in extremely high costs areas and include many “nice to haves” as requirements.

My whole beef is that people take the high estimate (or a bad year) and project that over a 20-25 year span as the norm. They then use that to say, it cost $300,000 to raise each kid so we can’t afford more than one. Yes, be prudent in trying to figure out if you can support another child, but don’t assume that the cost of raising a national champion soccer playing virtuoso pianist from Manhattan is going to apply to raising a kid who plays soccer with his friends in Kansas City.

Yeah, well, just not being able to eat flour means not having the blessing of…being able to eat mostly flour, which is very cheap. And if you never learned to cook from scratch, how are you supposed learn to when you’re pregnant, recovering from a pregnancy, or chasing toddlers?

We buy semi-prepared food and it’s cheaper than cooking from scratch, because everyone eats it, while they don’t eat the “deliciously frugal” results of trying to cook from scratch. But it will never be as cheap as what you claim, and there are a lot of people who can certainly have 3, 4, even six kids who would face similar cooking dilemmas to us, and knowing that it’s not insanely expensive to gasp not cook from scratch is useful too.

My husband has the blessing of making a very large income for Americans, and if I had the blessing of good health and easy pregnancies and “lump” babies that don’t walk until 18 months, we’d probably be able to learn how to cook the foods we can eat from scratch and various other economizing tricks we and the people we know having children after the year 2000 didn’t learn. But we’d probably find other uses for my time, not everyone is called to cook all day or is suited to it.

The married people I know having kids mostly have six figure incomes or close to it, much like the actual Census numbers on family structure. Those who don’t make that kind of money live near a ton of relatives or get other support.

They economize, they mostly have 3-4 kids, some have 1-2, a few have 5-10. So we certainly know people with more than four kids who do it on lower incomes than ours (because ours is statistically unusual on one salary, it usually is earned with two incomes). The only people I know of saying it costs 300k to raise kids and that therefore they can’t afford them are single people who just are scared. The married people have the kids until they hit a wall in terms of ability to handle the needs of all the kids, and that wall varies by age and circumstances.

Several of the “only 2” couples we know had multiple miscarriages. It’s very hard for them because people think they contracepted to “buy the best” for their kids when that wasn’t what went on at all.

 

[Usige]

Yeah, well, just not being able to eat flour means not having the blessing of…being able to eat mostly flour, which is very cheap. And if you never learned to cook from scratch, how are you supposed learn to when you’re pregnant, recovering from a pregnancy, or chasing toddlers?

We buy semi-prepared food and it’s cheaper than cooking from scratch, because everyone eats it, while they don’t eat the “deliciously frugal” results of trying to cook from scratch. But it will never be as cheap as what you claim, and there are a lot of people who can certainly have 3, 4, even six kids who would face similar cooking dilemmas to us, and knowing that it’s not insanely expensive to gasp not cook from scratch is useful too.

My husband has the blessing of making a very large income for Americans, and if I had the blessing of good health and easy pregnancies and “lump” babies that don’t walk until 18 months, we’d probably be able to learn how to cook the foods we can eat from scratch and various other economizing tricks we and the people we know having children after the year 2000 didn’t learn. But we’d probably find other uses for my time, not everyone is called to cook all day or is suited to it.

The married people I know having kids mostly have six figure incomes or close to it, much like the actual Census numbers on family structure. Those who don’t make that kind of money live near a ton of relatives or get other support.

They economize, they mostly have 3-4 kids, some have 1-2, a few have 5-10. So we certainly know people with more than four kids who do it on lower incomes than ours (because ours is statistically unusual on one salary, it usually is earned with two incomes). The only people I know of saying it costs 300k to raise kids and that therefore they can’t afford them are single people who just are scared. The married people have the kids until they hit a wall in terms of ability to handle the needs of all the kids, and that wall varies by age and circumstances.

Several of the “only 2” couples we know had multiple miscarriages. It’s very hard for them because people think they contracepted to “buy the best” for their kids when that wasn’t what went on at all.

I’m sorry that me sharing my story so offends you. I will ask you to please stop imputing my honor with statements like “cheap as you claim”. I am not lying and I find your repeated claims on this and other threads that I am frankly obnoxious. Feel free to share how you experience differ, but please understand that not everyone shares your experiences. Just because they don’t does not mean they are claiming something false. I have given several examples of my “claims”, but seems that short of posting my monthly financial statements I am simply making things up. This type of toxicity is exactly why I avoid the “family” forums and I should have known better than to post here.

 

[bitterhope]

I’m sorry that me sharing my story so offends you. I will ask you to please stop imputing my honor with statements like “cheap as you claim”. I am not lying and I find your repeated claims on this and other threads that I am frankly obnoxious. Feel free to share how you experience differ, but please understand that not everyone shares your experiences. Just because they don’t does not mean they are claiming something false. I have given several examples of my “claims”, but seems that short of posting my monthly financial statements I am simply making things up. This type of toxicity is exactly why I avoid the “family” forums and I should have known better than to post here.

I’m sorry for your experience. I appreciate your posts. May God bless your family. There are many families like ours in the US, and our experiences are true and valid. I’m sorry so many feel threatened by your witness.

 

[pensmama87]

Relevant to this thread: I was talking with a mom today who has four children, one of whom with severe allergies that requires an epipen if she were to accidentally eat something she can’t. Their income is very good and they have good insurance, but apparently the copay alone for the epipens is several hundred dollars, and has gone up in recent years due to price gouging (this is in the US). We’re talking a vitally important lifesaving treatment. They can afford it, but I don’t know how my family would. So far we’ve been blessed with no major medical issues and that discussion really brought that home. So many children have allergies these days and how they come about is still unknown.

I think it can be useful to encourage people to make sacrifices and to teach them to discern God’s will. But I think it can be dangerous to assume from outside circumstances what is going on internally with anyone. There are lots of families that look “perfect” that are actually incredibly dysfunctional, and there are families that look a mess but their homes are filled to the brim with love.

I also don’t mean “let’s just leave everybody alone and assume everyone’s fine” - I think we get a bit too much of that especially in American culture - but I think we’d get farther examining our own hearts and reaching out to love our neighbors in the best way we know how. “Well, I did it, and therefore so can you,” can have its place, but I think really the most pro-life and pro-family course of action we can take outside of our own families is getting to know and offering to help our neighbors, and build some of that support network back that we’ve lost.

 

[UbiCaritas]

I’m sorry for your experience. I appreciate your posts. May God bless your family. There are many families like ours in the US, and our experiences are true and valid. I’m sorry so many feel threatened by your witness.

I think some of us feel threatened because of our own experiences.

I seem to recall from prior posts that you grew up in a large and not-terribly-well-off family. As a result, I expect you acquired a lot of the skills that you have: wrangling several small children at once, for example, while getting necessary housework done. Or cooking in the ways you describe–frugally, lots of veggies and legumes, baking, etc. Or finding resources for medical and dental care.

Believe me, I’m not knocking that at all…quite the opposite! I wish I’d grown up in such a way because I wouldn’t have to learn those skills the hard way. Most of my frugal living stuff was learnable as a college student (fifty different things to do with bean soup, anyone? ) but things like taking care of children can really only be learned as you do them, whether as an older sibling or as a parent. Plus, people do become accustomed to the standard of living they had as kids: my parents-in-law are quite thrifty, but they’re also quite well-off, so there’s meat on the table every night, no leftovers (well, that’s partly from having a very large family), and so forth. While I learned to make do and adapt on groceries as a single woman and college student (my budget was $30/week much of the time, occasionally only $10/week), DH never did. To him, soup or beans most nights would be a pretty big deprivation. To me, wrestling several screaming children all of whom need something NOW is terrifying. Less so than it used to be, now that I have a toddler and a baby and have learned some of those kid-wrangling skills, but I admit that I stay at home a lot more now because of trying to carry the baby while hold onto the toddler. To you, that’s probably second nature–and again, that’s a good thing! But many of us have lost those skills.

Lastly, I admit I haven’t posted a huge amount on this thread because even though I expect most larger families wouldn’t judge me too harshly, I’ve been told by the one large Catholic family with small kids I do know in real life that because I had my babies via C-section (one transverse, the next with the cord wrapped tightly around his neck) that I’m “not really open to life,” because “Catholic women who are actually open to life don’t have C-sections because C-sections can limit their family size”–as it looks like this last one may well have. Given that DH and I follow Church teaching, use NFP even though it requires a lot of abstinence, and still catch that sort of attitude from the people who are supposed to be on “our side,”…well, it’s hard not to feel pretty hurt and alone and project that, albeit sometimes unfairly, on others.

 

[Sarcelle]

I’m sorry that me sharing my story so offends you. I will ask you to please stop imputing my honor with statements like “cheap as you claim”. I am not lying and I find your repeated claims on this and other threads that I am frankly obnoxious. Feel free to share how you experience differ, but please understand that not everyone shares your experiences. Just because they don’t does not mean they are claiming something false. I have given several examples of my “claims”, but seems that short of posting my monthly financial statements I am simply making things up. This type of toxicity is exactly why I avoid the “family” forums and I should have known better than to post here.

Maybe you could mentor a few newlywed couples on how being open to life looks like. A witness like yours can send the message to couples that having a large family is not necessarily something to fear if God chooses to bless them with a lot of children.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

Lastly, I admit I haven’t posted a huge amount on this thread because even though I expect most larger families wouldn’t judge me too harshly, I’ve been told by the one large Catholic family with small kids I do know in real life that because I had my babies via C-section (one transverse, the next with the cord wrapped tightly around his neck) that I’m “not really open to life,” because “Catholic women who are actually open to life don’t have C-sections because C-sections can limit their family size”–as it looks like this last one may well have. Given that DH and I follow Church teaching, use NFP even though it requires a lot of abstinence, and still catch that sort of attitude from the people who are supposed to be on “our side,”…well, it’s hard not to feel pretty hurt and alone and project that, albeit sometimes unfairly, on others.

Well that’s a load of nonsense. Why do people insist on deigning us with opinions, especially when they aren’t grounded in actual teaching. My wife had two C-sections (not her choice), but was able to have a VBAC for our third, which she was ecstatic about.

I suppose Mary may not have been open to life either?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=352456

Relevant to this thread: I was talking with a mom today who has four children, one of whom with severe allergies that requires an epipen if she were to accidentally eat something she can’t. Their income is very good and they have good insurance, but apparently the copay alone for the epipens is several hundred dollars, and has gone up in recent years due to price gouging (this is in the US). We’re talking a vitally important lifesaving treatment. They can afford it, but I don’t know how my family would. So far we’ve been blessed with no major medical issues and that discussion really brought that home. So many children have allergies these days and how they come about is still unknown.

I think it can be useful to encourage people to make sacrifices and to teach them to discern God’s will. But I think it can be dangerous to assume from outside circumstances what is going on internally with anyone. There are lots of families that look “perfect” that are actually incredibly dysfunctional, and there are families that look a mess but their homes are filled to the brim with love.

I also don’t mean “let’s just leave everybody alone and assume everyone’s fine” - I think we get a bit too much of that especially in American culture - but I think we’d get farther examining our own hearts and reaching out to love our neighbors in the best way we know how. “Well, I did it, and therefore so can you,” can have its place, but I think really the most pro-life and pro-family course of action we can take outside of our own families is getting to know and offering to help our neighbors, and build some of that support network back that we’ve lost.

We have a few epipens for my oldest daughter - home x 2, car, grandma’s house, school. Yes, they are a necessity especially when children are involved. We went to a Mexican restaurant last week and were eating queso when I realized it had avocado in it (one of her four allergies, and newest one). Sure enough, my daughter complained a bit about her throat, and my wife wisked her out to the car (we were sitting outside, so it was feet away). Didn’t need to use it, but they aren’t luxuries when the child needs them.

Similarly, we have an MS patient in the family. Very mild case even 14 years later, but the preventative medicine itself has a $6000/month sticker price. We have a $12 copay from Tricare, but that is nuts. I seriously doubt anyone pays that out of pocket. Like literally, I doubt a single person in America, even if they were independently wealthy, would pay that. That’s more than a year’s salary for much of America, statistically speaking. Crazy.

 

[bitterhope]

Maybe you could mentor a few newlywed couples on how being open to life looks like. A witness like yours can send the message to couples that having a large family is not necessarily something to fear if God chooses to bless them with a lot of children.

I don’t know about the other poster, but I have and would love to continue to mentor others. The problem is, accusations of lying, “hating” on smaller families, judging others for assuming using birth control, and more get heaped on us. I don’t believe that my family is holier because we have a lot more kids and can survive on smaller income, yet how many times is it stated that I do feel that way by other posters? I understand loss. I’ve been there. My sister is infertile. I don’t look at a family and decide they must be trying to avoid, yet many women share that with me. Why? Not sure, but many women are very open about their favorite type of contraception. Probably because of all the commercials in tv… I feel for women that truly want kids but there are many ways people try to help out or give examples of how we do it, but look what at how that is received. Accusations of lying, living off flour only, snide remarks about our family way of life, in past threads hinting at abuse/neglect/educational deficits, etc. Look, I’ve said many times that this is not the life for each and every person, but it should not be feared or thought to be impossible. It is very possible and it can be done with a heart full of love and joy. But no, it isn’t necessary. What is necessary is accepting and living the life God calls us to. For many (like my sister) that is childlessness. For others (like me) that is several more children than I wanted.

 

[AClaire11]

I think some of us feel threatened because of our own experiences.

I seem to recall from prior posts that you grew up in a large and not-terribly-well-off family. As a result, I expect you acquired a lot of the skills that you have: wrangling several small children at once, for example, while getting necessary housework done. Or cooking in the ways you describe–frugally, lots of veggies and legumes, baking, etc. Or finding resources for medical and dental care.

Believe me, I’m not knocking that at all…quite the opposite! I wish I’d grown up in such a way because I wouldn’t have to learn those skills the hard way. Most of my frugal living stuff was learnable as a college student (fifty different things to do with bean soup, anyone? ) but things like taking care of children can really only be learned as you do them, whether as an older sibling or as a parent. Plus, people do become accustomed to the standard of living they had as kids: my parents-in-law are quite thrifty, but they’re also quite well-off, so there’s meat on the table every night, no leftovers (well, that’s partly from having a very large family), and so forth. While I learned to make do and adapt on groceries as a single woman and college student (my budget was $30/week much of the time, occasionally only $10/week), DH never did. To him, soup or beans most nights would be a pretty big deprivation. To me, wrestling several screaming children all of whom need something NOW is terrifying. Less so than it used to be, now that I have a toddler and a baby and have learned some of those kid-wrangling skills, but I admit that I stay at home a lot more now because of trying to carry the baby while hold onto the toddler. To you, that’s probably second nature–and again, that’s a good thing! But many of us have lost those skills.

Lastly, I admit I haven’t posted a huge amount on this thread because even though I expect most larger families wouldn’t judge me too harshly, I’ve been told by the one large Catholic family with small kids I do know in real life that because I had my babies via C-section (one transverse, the next with the cord wrapped tightly around his neck) that I’m “not really open to life,” because “Catholic women who are actually open to life don’t have C-sections because C-sections can limit their family size”–as it looks like this last one may well have. Given that DH and I follow Church teaching, use NFP even though it requires a lot of abstinence, and still catch that sort of attitude from the people who are supposed to be on “our side,”…well, it’s hard not to feel pretty hurt and alone and project that, albeit sometimes unfairly, on others.

Exactly! I was an only child and the first diaper I ever changed was in the hospital, and I grew up upper middle class and didn’t really learn to cook until I moved out. My husband’s family wasn’t as well off, but didn’t need to be super frugal, either, and his only sibling was very close in age to him. We can’t get chores done while she naps because she’ll wake up (small apartment) and the same with baking. Plus I can’t have enriched flour, so when I do make baked goods from scratch, I have to buy organic flour and that takes all the savings away. Living paycheck to paycheck for the last few years has been hell and I definitely do not want to be in a long term situation where I’m constantly worried about money and frugality. I do like this thread and it’s made me think and consider a lot. If we didn’t have fertility issues and wanted to make having as many kids as possible our number one priority, then yes, I suppose we could move further out and buy a house sooner and make it work.

 

[AClaire11]

And I do hope none of you think I feel negatively towards you or perceive you as looking down on smaller families! That’s not the case at all. It’s just hard for me to imagine being able to live so frugally when I’ve always lived in expensive, coastal big city metro areas. I do realize now that we could make changes even in this area that would allow us to live more frugally, but we might not even be able to have another child, so for now that point is moot.

(And I can’t believe someone said that about C-Sections! I had an emergency CS that was absolutely needed and I would be enraged if someone said that to me.)

 

[pensmama87]

Lastly, I admit I haven’t posted a huge amount on this thread because even though I expect most larger families wouldn’t judge me too harshly, I’ve been told by the one large Catholic family with small kids I do know in real life that because I had my babies via C-section (one transverse, the next with the cord wrapped tightly around his neck) that I’m “not really open to life,” because “Catholic women who are actually open to life don’t have C-sections because C-sections can limit their family size”–as it looks like this last one may well have. Given that DH and I follow Church teaching, use NFP even though it requires a lot of abstinence, and still catch that sort of attitude from the people who are supposed to be on “our side,”…well, it’s hard not to feel pretty hurt and alone and project that, albeit sometimes unfairly, on others.

Ugh, I’m so sorry people said that to you.

I know many women who are very sad that their family size will be limited for this reason. There’s no need for anybody to rub it in or imply that somehow it’s their fault it happened.

 

[Xantippe]

Relevant to this thread: I was talking with a mom today who has four children, one of whom with severe allergies that requires an epipen if she were to accidentally eat something she can’t. Their income is very good and they have good insurance, but apparently the copay alone for the epipens is several hundred dollars, and has gone up in recent years due to price gouging (this is in the US). We’re talking a vitally important lifesaving treatment. They can afford it, but I don’t know how my family would. So far we’ve been blessed with no major medical issues and that discussion really brought that home. So many children have allergies these days and how they come about is still unknown.

I think it can be useful to encourage people to make sacrifices and to teach them to discern God’s will. But I think it can be dangerous to assume from outside circumstances what is going on internally with anyone. There are lots of families that look “perfect” that are actually incredibly dysfunctional, and there are families that look a mess but their homes are filled to the brim with love.

I also don’t mean “let’s just leave everybody alone and assume everyone’s fine” - I think we get a bit too much of that especially in American culture - but I think we’d get farther examining our own hearts and reaching out to love our neighbors in the best way we know how. “Well, I did it, and therefore so can you,” can have its place, but I think really the most pro-life and pro-family course of action we can take outside of our own families is getting to know and offering to help our neighbors, and build some of that support network back that we’ve lost.

Yes!

 

[Xantippe]

Lastly, I admit I haven’t posted a huge amount on this thread because even though I expect most larger families wouldn’t judge me too harshly, I’ve been told by the one large Catholic family with small kids I do know in real life that because I had my babies via C-section (one transverse, the next with the cord wrapped tightly around his neck) that I’m **“not really open to life,” because “Catholic women who are actually open to life don’t have C-sections because C-sections can limit their family size”–as it looks like this last one may well have. ** Given that DH and I follow Church teaching, use NFP even though it requires a lot of abstinence, and still catch that sort of attitude from the people who are supposed to be on “our side,”…well, it’s hard not to feel pretty hurt and alone and project that, albeit sometimes unfairly, on others.

WOW.

That’s the Katie Ledecky of the Insensitivity Olympics!

 

[Convert_in_99]

I swear. NFP and family size debates should be a banned topic. So many unecessary hurt feelings. As long as the couple is following the Church’s teachings, it doesn’t matter a dime what your fellow Catholic brothers and sisters think of you. We are called to build one another up, not judge for things that aren’t even sinful. Just because your way seems better to you, it doesn’t mean it’s best for someone else. If you put someone down for using Church approved NFP, you could be endangering their lives!!! Some couples have VERY serious reasons to use NFP. Others less have less serious reasons, but who are you to judge who’s who and where the just reasons line should be drawn in each marriage. All these NFP and family size debating threads are getting old fast. I hate to see feelings hurt and so unecessarily at that.

 

[Xantippe]

I**'m not sure where you are getting $10-20/month. I said it was $400-800 per year additional**. That is above and beyond what my wife and I were already paying in groceries, healthcare, and household expenses. This is based on looking at our year over year increases for those categories over the last 5 years and accounting for 3 extra kids.

Roughly 75% of that is for food so that is $25-50/month. Most of the stuff we buy is roughly 25-60% of retail. Even the bulk processed stuff we but is at about 65-80% retail. It cost us perhaps 45-60 cents to make a loaf of bread. The store is around $1.70 - 2.50. We also weigh our dry ingredients instead of dipping measuring cups which yields about 25-30% more per pound of things like flour. My wife and I were talking about it last night and our per serving cost of most things are between .30 - 1.30 per meal. On average we spend about $53 per month per kid (or about $1.70 per day). This is on top of the $350 my wife and I used to spend for ourselves (a lot of convenience foods and wastage). Even if we evenly redistribute the cost, that is $80 per person per month. This is far below the $10 per diem some other are talking about.

We also talked about any hidden costs that I might have missed (i.e. change in car payments from the minivan to suburban, additional water and electricity for cooking, et cetera). Even if my estimate was low by half we would be looking at 800-1600/kid per year above and beyond our base living expenses. That is less than half the $10 per diem others mentioned just for food. Even my 2 adult kids aren’t regularly costing me $10/day in food.

Despite what some imply, we don’t scrimp on medical or dental. My kids don’t wear rags or have all their clothes given to them. We have never been on WIC, public assistance, or received food from the food bank. We actually give significant amounts we save back to charity.

Yes, we have good medical and dental coverage. I consider the total cost of these thing before I consider salary when looking for a job. We cook many things from scratch because my wife and oldest daughters enjoy baking and cooking. We are prudent on when to go to the ER vs urgent care vs waiting for a regular doctor’s appointment or simply fixing things at home. I repair many things myself instead of replacing them or calling a repair man because I like knowing how things work.

None of this is saying that how we chose to live is better than others. If someone wants to spend $5000 per person each year on food and $800 a year for a new wardrobe then that is their choice. At the same time it is possible to live less expensively if you chose to do so.

Some may say we are simply blessed and I would agree to a point. But many of our blessings are also supported by choices and taking opportunities when presented. I have a good job because I made plans on job growth, unemployment rates, education costs, et cetera. I sat down and figured out the best growth for the lowest educational costs. I didn’t sit down and go “I’d love to do X” and then bemoan the costs of paying back 10s of thousands in student loans to make 40k per year. I frankly do not enjoy my job or the company I work for, but it provides my family with what we require to live. It is a compromise that I am willing to make for my family. The same goes for how we spend money on food, clothes, et cetera. We determine what we want to do for charity and our family and then try to figure out how to make it happen.

You said in one of your early posts when talking about food: “Baby food? Mother’s milk is essentially free and even when on solids it’s maybe $10 -20 per month until they are teens.”

That phrasing caused a lot of confusion. I see that you also said “In general each extra kids has cost me maybe an extra 400-800 per YEAR.” That’s $33-$67 a month per child total expenses.

If I am understanding you correctly, you were looking at your old expenses and then just figuring out the extra expenses that children added. That’s rather misleading to the youngsters in the audience if you were already earning and spending a solid middle class income and then went frugal while adding more children. A lot of the people that are listening have much smaller incomes and are already spending very little on themselves and their children, so it would be a very different situation for them.

 

[rainereli_rod]

I swear. NFP and family size debates should be a banned topic. So many unnecessary hurt feelings.

Sister , if we ban it , we would make it a taboo , and that is possible the worst thing we as Catholic church can do, make a taboo the first commandment that Adan and Eva receive in the Eden. If there are some kind of hurt we must be humble and offer all the hurt to God and pray as community and discuss the issue with serenity. But not ban it.

However i do believe that we are putting to unnecessary noise , there are a lot very specific cases and cannot be addressed in just one thread. But is indeed an issue that we must face.

 

[Usige]

You said in one of your early posts when talking about food: “Baby food? Mother’s milk is essentially free and even when on solids it’s maybe $10 -20 per month until they are teens.”

Thank you for pointing out my mistake. I had originally ment to talk about our average daily cost for food and did not properly edit it. My apologies if that was the cause of confusion.

That phrasing caused a lot of confusion. I see that you also said “In general each extra kids has cost me maybe an extra 400-800 per YEAR.” That’s $33-$67 a month per child total expenses.

If I am understanding you correctly, you were looking at your old expenses and then just figuring out the extra expenses that children added. That’s rather misleading to the youngsters in the audience if you were already earning and spending a solid middle class income and then went frugal while adding more children. A lot of the people that are listening have much smaller incomes and are already spending very little on themselves and their children, so it would be a very different situation for them.

Again my apologies if that was unclear. I had been talking about the fact that scaling up a family is generally cheaper after 2 kids. Some people say we spent an extra 3-4,000 per year with number 1, so 10 kids is 30-40,000 per year. That is not the case in my expereince. The major expenses are incured with the first two kids. I was specifically thinking in terms of economy of scale. I’m often posting from my phone between bouts of studying so if that train of thought was not evident then please accept my apologies.

Again I am not saying everyone should (or can) have 7, 8, 10+ kids, but rather trying to say that if you CHOOSE or WANT to have a larger family, do not assume that it is only possible if you are wealthy. Perhaps that is the case where you live, but you should consider if your desire for a larger family is more important than where you live. That is not a value judgement, but rather to say that your assumptions as to what is possible may not be correct. Don’t just take for granted that you can only afford one kid if you would like to have more. In otherwords don’t simply take everything on faith without saying “what can I change to achieve what I’d like”.