Loyalty to the Pope or Church

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WanderingCathol

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Is one loyal to the pope or loyal to the church?

I am in a bind because I feel that I am more loyal to the church than the pope because of things that the pope has done or written that is clearly a departure from catholic tradition.

I know that there are many teachings that are not infallible and so I compare what has been taught by other popes to this pope and ignore those teachings that are in contradiction.

Do you feel that I am in the wrong here?
 
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WanderingCathol:
Is one loyal to the pope or loyal to the church?

I am in a bind because I feel that I am more loyal to the church than the pope because of things that the pope has done or written that is clearly a departure from catholic tradition.

Do you feel that I am in the wrong here?
Maybe you should be more specific as to where you think that the Holy Father departs from Catholic tradition. I think that we can help answer your question if you can get more specific.
 
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SHEMP:
Maybe you should be more specific as to where you think that the Holy Father departs from Catholic tradition. I think that we can help answer your question if you can get more specific.
When he says that the church of christ subsits in the catholic church. When traditions says and has alway taught that the catholic church is the christ’s church.

when he prays with jews, muslims, etc.

when traditions teaches one never to pray with heretics.

These are just two examples that are troubling to me. I really believe that he is a saintly man but in my judgment he has inadvertently brought scandal to the church.
 
On the “subsists” issue:

This teaching comes not from John Paul II but from Vatican II. Why did the council use “subsists” instead of “is”? Because there is a level of ambiguity or misdirection in “is.” Here’s what I mean:

When we say that the Catholic Church “is” Christ’s Church, some people think–not entirely unreasonably–that we mean that no element of the Church can be found outside the Church. If so, this would imply that grace itself could not be found outside the Church.

But we know that Protestants, for example, confer valid baptism (which confers grace), and we know that it is possible for a Protestant who falls into sin to repent and to be returned to a life of grace. We also know that “God wills the salvation of all men,” and that means he must give “all men” enough grace to be saved, even if throughout life they remain outside the Church.

Thus, something that properly “belongs” to the Catholic Church–grace–is found outside of its formal boundaries.

The technical word “subsists” gets around this difficulty. Granted, it has a difficulty of its own: Some people think it means that the Catholic Church is just a subset of the bigger Church that Christ established. But this is not what the word really means. It means that the fullness of Christ’s Church is found only in the Catholic Church, but it also means that certain elements of Christ’s Church may be found elsewhere.
 
Who the Pope should pray has nothing to do with infallibility. Infallibility applies only to matters of faith and morals,and there are set criteria which must be met before anything on either subject is considered infallible teaching.
 
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Sanosuke:
Who the Pope should pray has nothing to do with infallibility. Infallibility applies only to matters of faith and morals,and there are set criteria which must be met before anything on either subject is considered infallible teaching.
and you think praying with jews, muslims and heretics has nothing to do with faith an morals?

This is not a matter of infallibility or not. It seems that everything is dismissed as " well, that was not infallible" excuse.

He should not have done it!
 
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WanderingCathol:
and you think praying with jews, muslims and heretics has nothing to do with faith an morals?

This is not a matter of infallibility or not. It seems that everything is dismissed as " well, that was not infallible" excuse.

He should not have done it!
Read this tcrnews2.com/Assisi3.html

I hope it helps.
 
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WanderingCathol:
and you think praying with jews, muslims and heretics has nothing to do with faith an morals?

This is not a matter of infallibility or not. It seems that everything is dismissed as " well, that was not infallible" excuse.

He should not have done it!
Why shouldn’t he have prayed with those people? The Jews are God’s chosen people and by the definiton of the term heritic, all non-catholics are heritics not to mention all the catholics that hold an opinion different than the church on any issue, is it a “sin” to pray with them too?
 
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WanderingCathol:
He should not have done it!
You’re talking about how the Pope is practicing his faith and morals, not how he is preaching faith and morals.

Read Matthew 23 and see what Christ would say: Look at what he teaches and not what he does. The Pope is a sinner, after all, and he sometimes did some things that are embarrassing. However, we don’t beleive in Papal Impeccability, but Papal Infallibility, which deals with his teaching office, not his personality.
 
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WanderingCathol:
and you think praying with jews, muslims and heretics has nothing to do with faith an morals?

This is not a matter of infallibility or not. It seems that everything is dismissed as " well, that was not infallible" excuse.

He should not have done it!
Infallibility! not impeccability; do not confuse them.

Infallibility: by definition is the grace to be exempt from error when teaches a doctrine of moral/faith, not the grace to be exempt from doing immoral or sinful things (I’m not saying what the Holy Father did was immoral though, :bowdown: I think we should pray for/with them, though obviously not their way, and only to God)

No one*** pope in the Church history has ever fallibly define a doctrine, so there’s no contraditions whatsoever to be feared here.

And yes, inseparable as they are, we should be loyal and obedient to both the Church - Christ’s mystical Body - and the reigning Roman Pontiff - her helm, the “Splendour of Truth”, the holder of the highest office and power exercised by man on earth. Obedience to him is, ultimately, obedience to Christ Himself. And we should we obedient to any ecclesiastical authority in the Church, anyway…
 
How can you be loyal to the Church without being loyal to the Pope?

There is a tradition of obedience, is there not?

Even those Saints who corrected popes did it through the Church and not outside the Church.

Luther, on the other hand, decided not to work within the Church. See where that got ut?
 
Karl Keating:
On the “subsists” issue:

This teaching comes not from John Paul II but from Vatican II. Why did the council use “subsists” instead of “is”? Because there is a level of ambiguity or misdirection in “is.” Here’s what I mean:

When we say that the Catholic Church “is” Christ’s Church, some people think–not entirely unreasonably–that we mean that no element of the Church can be found outside the Church. If so, this would imply that grace itself could not be found outside the Church.

But we know that Protestants, for example, confer valid baptism (which confers grace), and we know that it is possible for a Protestant who falls into sin to repent and to be returned to a life of grace. We also know that “God wills the salvation of all men,” and that means he must give “all men” enough grace to be saved, even if throughout life they remain outside the Church.

Thus, something that properly “belongs” to the Catholic Church–grace–is found outside of its formal boundaries.

The technical word “subsists” gets around this difficulty. Granted, it has a difficulty of its own: Some people think it means that the Catholic Church is just a subset of the bigger Church that Christ established. But this is not what the word really means. It means that the fullness of Christ’s Church is found only in the Catholic Church, but it also means that certain elements of Christ’s Church may be found elsewhere.
This is the best/clearest explanation I’ve read concerning this one little word. No wonder you get paid those BIG bucks, Karl 🙂
 
The Bible says " “And he said unto them, full well ye REJECT the commandment of God, that ye may KEEP your own tradition.â€

“Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.â€

Mark 7:9, 13

If you follow the Pope regardless of what God’s Word says, you are following the tradition of men while rejecting God.

Find out what the Bible says about your dilemna and follow it. One cannot serve two masters. You are either loyal first to the Pope or loyal first to Christ. Which is it?
 
Loyalty to the Servant of Servants, the Vicar of Christ is loyalty to the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

Remember the Bible is a Catholic book.
Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
 
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SamIAm:
The Bible says " “And he said unto them, full well ye REJECT the commandment of God, that ye may KEEP your own tradition.â€
Translation: My interpretation of the Bible says…
“Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.â€

Mark 7:9, 13

If you follow the Pope regardless of what God’s Word says, you are following the tradition of men while rejecting God.
Who determines what is the correct interpretation of those verses?
Find out what the Bible says about your dilemna and follow it. One cannot serve two masters. You are either loyal first to the Pope or loyal first to Christ. Which is it?
Wonderful. Who determines whether a tradition is of men or of God? Start a new thread so we can discuss this, OK? 🙂 I look forward to a fruitful discussion with you.
 
If by “praying with Muslims, Jews, and heretics” you are referring to the Assisi meeting or the various occasions in which the Holy Father has prayed with other Christians, I think that some clarification is in order.

To my knowledge, when representatives of various non-Christian religions and other Christian ecclesial communities gathered in Assisi, they did not, in the proper sense, pray ‘together.’ Rather, they gathered together as a group at the start but then later left to their own venues to pray separately, among their own co-religionists. They then returned as a group at the end of the gathering.

The practice of the Holy Father praying, in the proper sense, with other Christians, did not originate with him. It happened at the Second Vatican Council, where representatives of other Christian ecclesial communities were invited to attend as ‘auditors.’ Prayer with other Christians was also endorsed by the Council.

Now praying with other Christians, as an expression of authentic ecumenism, does not infer that the differences between us are meaningless. Indeed, it can be a recognition that it will only be through the power of the Holy Spirit that such differences will be overcome. In any case, prayer with other Christians can also be an honest recognition that there are some important commonalities among us, including our shared baptism in Jesus Christ and the reverence that we both have for sacred scripture.
 
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WanderingCathol:
I am in a bind because I feel that I am more loyal to the church than the pope because of things that the pope has done or written that is clearly a departure from catholic tradition.
Who determines that the Pope has “departed from catholic tradition.” ?
 
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WanderingCathol:
Is one loyal to the pope or loyal to the church?

I am in a bind because I feel that I am more loyal to the church than the pope because of things that the pope has done or written that is clearly a departure from catholic tradition.

I know that there are many teachings that are not infallible and so I compare what has been taught by other popes to this pope and ignore those teachings that are in contradiction.

Do you feel that I am in the wrong here?
What qualifies you to decide what is catholic tradition and what is not?
 
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut Sam, however,
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SamIAm:
And he said unto them, full well ye REJECT the commandment of God, that ye may KEEP your own tradition.
We do not reject the commandment of God. We follow it by following the teachings of our Lord. Jesus the Christ
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SamIAm:
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Again, we do not reject the Word of God. God established His Church among men, with a visible leader, Peter and He made it eternal, with the succession of the Apostles. That is His Word, so if you don’t follow the Catholic Church then you don’t follow the Word of God
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SamIAm:
If you follow the Pope regardless of what God’s Word says, you are following the tradition of men while rejecting God.
Absolutely false, again, if you deny the Church that our Lord Jesus the Christ established, you deny Him, read it in Scripture.
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SamIAm:
One cannot serve two masters. You are either loyal first to the Pope or loyal first to Christ. Which is it
I am truly sorry you don’t like the way Jesus established His Church, but, it’s history.
 
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