Loyalty to the Pope or Church

[jc_escobar]

WanderingCathol:

Then you are following the pope and not the church. the pope is not the church. I will never follow a pope that scandalizers the faithful. I pray that the next one will be orthodox. Not that this one is not but he is seriously lacking in areas.

anyways, my loyalty is to the church not anyone particular person that happens to occupy the chair of peter. This goes for this pope, past popes who have scandalised the church and future one.

Hi Wandering Cathol,

The way I see the the “Job” of the Pope, whether present or past, is to take care of the faithful and to bring the Gospel of the Lord to those who don’t know it.
I work in Sudan, which is a muslim country, therefore I have a lot friends who are muslim and have come to know them. It really is painful to see the way most of them are commited to worswhiping God in the only way they have ever known and yet to know they are going the wrong path. These are people who need to know the Good News. If you dismiss them and/or undermine them because they are “heretics” as you say, the only thing you are acheiving is to show them Christianity is not worth it. Are you saying you don’t care about their faith? as long as my Catholic Church is nice and tidy?
Many other way were tried to convert people before and those really brought scandall. We can’t start trying to launch acruzade or anything like that. However we have the obligation to try to bring them to Christ.
Charity is the only way to bring the good news to them. I believe the Pope is not only being Orthodox but he is also doing his Job in a very excellent way.
Humility is really needed from you to see your obligation as a Catholic to support the Pope in his work which is always for Christ.
With all your accusations, it is you who is bringing scandal in the church
Do you really believe you can judge the pope’s actions?? Aren’t you being proud? I don’t tell you this to attack you, but I tell you this to invite you to meditate in your position and what you are really implying.
If you look at things with eyes of Charity, things look different. The big trunk of pride is gone from your eye and you can see that the stick you thought you saw in your brother’s eye was nothing but the shining of the light you were not able to see before.

“If obedience doesn’t give you peace, it’s because you’re proud.” San Josemaria Escriva

Blessings,
J.C.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

WanderingCathol,

How do you compare your application of Catholic tradition to what St. Catherine, St. Bellarmine, and Ven. Newman have said above? Are you more qualified in interpreting Tradition than these? Than the Pope? If so, how? You say you can compare what the Pope has taught to the ecclesial documents of the past. Isn’t that the same as Protestants who compare Catholic dogma to the Bible by their own private lights? Aren’t you advocating the private interpretation of Tradition (Sola Traditio) just as the Protestants advocate the private interpretation of Scripture (Sola Scriptura) as the final authority of your faith?

Didn’t the Ecumenical Council of Florence in the 15th century involve a prayerful gathering of schismatic Eastern Orthodox and heretical Monophysites and Nestorians? How does that square with your theory that the Pope practiced, at Assisi, something heretical?

I don’t think you’ve proven your case. You’re certainly well within your rights to disagree with the prudence of the Pope’s actions. However, you’re far from proving the Pope acted heretically.

"Prayers in common" means that we pray for the same thing. We may even use the same words. For example, I can pray for peace. A Muslim may pray for the same thing. That is a prayer in common. We may even say the same words. However, merely because we say the same words, doesn’t mean it is a shared prayer in the true sense. My prayers are always in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and always in accord with the Father’s will, not mine. A Muslim … not so much. So, it can rightly be called common prayer, but I don’t believe it is a shared prayer. To have true shared prayer, one must share a religion.

On the other hand, I can have shared prayer with Protestant or with Orthodox Christians, as we are both baptized into the same Christian religion, although are not in full communion with one another.

I suggest the following…

Shared Prayer of Christians
by Msgr. Eleuterio F.Fortino
Undersecretary of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity
vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_june-sept-1996_fortino_en.html

Msgr Fortino makes clear …

… there cannot be a shared prayer of representatives of different religions.

… [At Assisi] Everyone prayed for the gift of peace, but each religious group did so according to its own traditions and separately, at different times and in different places.

Please provide support for your opinion that this was a violation of Catholic tradition.

God bless,

Dave

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I don’t care what Newmann or Bellarmine said, at all.

LOL!!! For one who presumes to uphold tradition, you have a strange way of showing it. You just said you do not care what the saints, who FAITHFULLY TEACH CATHOLIC TRADITION have said about the subject. Hmmmmmmmm… How ironic.

I can judge for myself the popes actions and compare it to the church’s tradition.

Spoken like a true Protestant. You reject the teachings of the saints for the primacy of private judgement. Ridiculous.

God bless,

Dave

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Like I said before, the pope is orthodox in somepoints but serioulsy lacking in other.

Thank God we have you to tell us what is orthodox and what is not. Perhap you’ll do us the favor of writing a Catechism, so the rest of us can benefit from your infallible judgement?

 

[Faithful_2_Rome]

WanderingCath-

I hear Catholics for a “free Choice” are looking for a few good people…so is Nicholas Gruener…

You dont care about obedience to Rome…you dont even care what the GREAT DOCTORS and SAINTS of the Church have to say??? So it seems to me, YOU are the one who is a heretic here. You seem to think that you dont need anyones authority or writings other than YOUR OWN opinions and personal discernment… You need to reflect… I say it with respect but pulling no punches…YOU are the one currently in heresy with a viewpoint which holds that neither Popes NOR Saints and Doctors of the Church can quantify as speaking with authority for you. Your nickname of Wandering Catholic seems very fitting for your outlook.

 

[WanderingCathol]

itsjustdave1988:

LOL!!! For one who presumes to uphold tradition, you have a strange way of showing it. You just said you do not care what the saints, who FAITHFULLY TEACH CATHOLIC TRADITION have said about the subject. Hmmmmmmmm… How ironic.
Spoken like a true Protestant. You reject the teachings of the saints for the primacy of private judgement. Ridiculous.

God bless,

Dave

I care about what the popes have said not any saint. I don’t need the pope to tell me what catholic tradition is or not.

I worship in true catholic tradition not the modernist way. you know the everyone is fine just where they are, the muslim wordship the true God, worshipping with heretics, etc…

Btw, from where I am seating, you are the protestant. God will send us a true catholic that doesn’t compromise. and it seems that you are more loyal to the person that seats in peter’s chair than the catholic church. We are all the guardian or truth. truth does not reside within one person no matter how holy he is.

As Saint Augustine said once " One man does notthink for the entire church" or something like that. I forget where I read it.

Actually, he should resign ( not unsual) and let a conservative bring back the church to its catholic roots. A pope that will take action against the heretical priest/bishops/cardinals and excommunicate all of them.

Let me ask you a question. Why has not the pope excommunicated the heretical priest/bishops/cardinals? What is he waiting for?

 

[WanderingCathol]

Faithful 2 Rome:

WanderingCath-

I hear Catholics for a “free Choice” are looking for a few good people…so is Nicholas Gruener…

You dont care about obedience to Rome…you dont even care what the GREAT DOCTORS and SAINTS of the Church have to say??? So it seems to me, YOU are the one who is a heretic here. You seem to think that you dont need anyones authority or writings other than YOUR OWN opinions and personal discernment… You need to reflect… I say it with respect but pulling no punches…YOU are the one currently in heresy with a viewpoint which holds that neither Popes NOR Saints and Doctors of the Church can quantify as speaking with authority for you. Your nickname of Wandering Catholic seems very fitting for your outlook.

Please, lets control the outburst.

Saints and Doctors have taught many things that are in error. That is why its important that their teachings are compared to catholicity. Saint Lerins comes to mine.

Of course that the popes/saints/doctors had authority. They need to be obey as long as they remain orthodox. Sorry but I don’t obey someone that teaches something that was taught to be heretical. catholics praying with heretics, muslims and jews. Constantly taught by popes, saints and doctors of the church.

Now, you tell me. If the church taught that catholics should not pray with heretics, muslism, and jews and someone says that it is ok now, would you do it? i would not.

Btw, where I am in heresy?

I am not the one teaching that muslim and christian believe in the same God. having interreligious prayers. Read read the teachings of the other Saintly popes. CATHOLICS DO NOT COMPROMISE!

 

[Unvrsl_Sldr]

“and you think praying with jews, muslims and heretics has nothing to do with faith an morals?”

I heard Dr. Peter Kreeft say that Muslims, Jews, and Christians all pray to the same God although somewhere along they have gone astray, but same God. Does anyone know about this?

Thanks!

 

[WanderingCathol]

“and you think praying with jews, muslims and heretics has nothing to do with faith an morals?”

I heard Dr. Peter Kreeft say that Muslims, Jews, and Christians all pray to the same God although somewhere along they have gone astray, but same God. Does anyone know about this?

Thanks!

We do not. As taught by popes that only catholics can worship God.

 

[amills]

"
I heard Dr. Peter Kreeft say that Muslims, Jews, and Christians all pray to the same God although somewhere along they have gone astray, but same God. Does anyone know about this?

I thought there was only one God. So I would think it would have to be the same God we pray to.

 

[WanderingCathol]

amills:

"
I heard Dr. Peter Kreeft say that Muslims, Jews, and Christians all pray to the same God although somewhere along they have gone astray, but same God. Does anyone know about this?

I thought there was only one God. So I would think it would have to be the same God we pray to.

They reject Christ, they reject God.
There God is a foreign God.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I care about what the popes have said not any saint. I don’t need the pope to tell me what catholic tradition is or not.

One day you might actually realize how the statement above contradicts itself.

You care about what the popes have said, but don’t need to pope to tell you what Catholic tradition is??? That’s absurd!!!

From Fr. William Most:

A “theologian” who would claim he needs to be able to ignore the Magisterium in order to find the truth is strangely perverse: the teaching of the Magisterium is the prime, God-given means of finding the truth. … Now in Catholic theology , the correct method is to study the sources of revelation, but then give the final word to the Church. He who does not follow that method is not a qualified Catholic theologian. Vatican II taught (Dei Verbum # 10): "The task of authoritatively interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on [Scripture or Tradition], has been entrusted exclusively to the living Magisterium of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."

Ooooops … Fr. Most was not a Pope, who you say you listen to, but don’t need to listen to (???).

How about Pope St. Pius X? He was both a pope and a saint?

He taught:

**Q: What is the Catholic Church? **
A: The Catholic Church is the Union or Congregation of all the baptized who, still living on earth, profess the same Faith and the same Law of Jesus Christ, participate in the same Sacraments, ***AND obey their lawful Pastors, particularly the Roman Pontiff. ***

Q: Is there any distinction between the members of the Church?
A: There is a very notable distinction between the members of the Church; for there are some who rule and some who obey; some who teach and some who are taught.

Q: What do you call that part of the Church which teaches?
A: That part of the Church which teaches is called the Teaching Church.

**Q: What do you call that part of the Church which is taught? **
A: That part of the Church which is taught is called the Learning Church, or the Church Taught.

**Q: Of whom is the Teaching Church composed? **
***A: The Teaching Church is composed of all the Bishops, with the Roman Pontiff at their head, be they dispersed throughout the world or assembled together in Council. ***

Q: And the Church Taught, of whom is it composed?
A: The Church Taught is composed of all the faithful.

**Q: Are we obliged to hear the Teaching Church? **
***A: Yes, without doubt we are obliged under pain of eternal damnation to hear the Teaching Church; for Jesus Christ has said to the Pastors of His Church, in the persons of the Apostles: “He who hears you, hears Me, and he who despises you, despises Me.” ***

[Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Ninth Article of the Creed]

God bless,

Dave

 

[itsjustdave1988]

We are all the guardian or truth. truth does not reside within one person no matter how holy he is.

Yes, it does. It resides in the person of Jesus Christ. You may want to revise your theology a bit. And it is precisely the person of Jesus Christ who established the Catholic Church as a hierarchical visible and perpetual organ of his authoritative teaching, with the Pope as his Vicar.

According to Catholic dogma, “we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (UNAM SANCTAM, Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18,
1302).

According to Pope St. Pius X, are you part of the Teaching Church (Pope and the Bishops in communion with him), or part of the Church Taught? Cuz you seem to be asserting that you are the former, not needing yet needing to listen to popes, but in a seemingly selective way like your at some kind of Catholic smorgasborg or something.

Your “we are church” rubbish is EXACTLY how the heretical dissenters describe Catholic ecclesiology. Are you not aware of the similarities in your ecclesiology? Have your ever heard of Fr. Charles Curran? You seem to have adopted his misuse of probablism to justify your own kind of dissent.

God bless,

Dave

 

[itsjustdave1988]

You’ve made the following claims:

Sorry but I don’t obey someone that teaches something that was taught to be heretical. catholics praying with heretics, muslims and jews. Constantly taught by popes, saints and doctors of the church.

Has the Pope taught that we should pray with heretics, muslims and jews? If so, please provide the source. As it stands, your opinion is unconvincing without providing the applicable papal decree.

As taught by popes that only catholics can worship God.

Huh? Do you agree with Pope Stephen I that the baptisms of heretics are valid? If Pope Stephen I is correct, than these heretics have prayed sacramentally to God and God has answered their baptismal prayer with baptismal grace, correct?

Also, when Cornelius, a pagan centurian (Acts 10) prayed to God, did God ignore him? If not, then did God accept his worship, although he was not yet either Jew or Christian?

You so easily assert this claim: “as taught by popes …” But you consistently fail to support your opinion with actual source information from any pope. I can only presume that you don’t have source information, and as such, we ought to dismiss your argument as unconvincing.

God bless,

Dave

 

[WanderingCathol]

itsjustdave1988:

One day you might actually realize how the statement above contradicts itself.

You care about what the popes have said, but don’t need to pope to tell you what Catholic tradition is??? That’s absurd!!!

From Fr. William Most:
Ooooops … Fr. Most was not a Pope, who you say you listen to, but don’t need to listen to (???).

How about Pope St. Pius X? He was both a pope and a saint?

He taught:
God bless,

Dave

My salvation is in the hand of christ, Dave. The pope won’t save me. Father Most won’t save me either.

I do realise that your loyalty is to the pope and not the catholic church. My loyalty to the pope ends when he goes against tradition and contradicts the teachings of other popes.

Until then, I have a moral obligation to ignore his teachings that contradict that which has been passed down.

 

[Pax]

WanderingCathol:

We do not. As taught by popes that only catholics can worship God.

Please cite quotes and sources for this claim. Somehow, I simply don’t think that this statement is correct. Moreover, it is contrary to scripture if I properly understand Acts 10:31where we are told that an angel tells Cornelius, a gentile, that " your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God."

Now maybe I’m missing something here. Perhaps there’s a context in which I need to properly understand your comment. I’m not really sure, however, because the remark stands by itself without references.

 

[WanderingCathol]

itsjustdave1988:

You’ve made the following claims:
Has the Pope taught that we should pray with heretics, muslims and jews? If so, please provide the source. As it stands, your opinion is unconvincing without providing the applicable papal decree.
Huh? Do you agree with Pope Stephen I that the baptisms of heretics are valid? If Pope Stephen I is correct, than these heretics have prayed sacramentally to God and God has answered their baptismal prayer with baptismal grace, correct?

Also, when Cornelius, a pagan centurian (Acts 10) prayed to God, did God ignore him? If not, then did God accept his worship, although he was not yet either Jew or Christian?

You so easily assert this claim: “as taught by popes …” But you consistently fail to support you opinion with actual source information from any pope. I can only presume that you don’t have source information, and as such, we ought to dismiss your argument as unconvincing.

God bless,

Dave

So what you are saying is that those pope taught errors? please, I would love to read your answer.

let me guess. Those where not infallible statments!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I do realise that your loyalty is to the pope and not the catholic church.

False dichotomy, often used by Protestants. Hmmmmmmmmm.

Its seems painfully obvious you started a argument that you were not prepared to support with any sort of scholastic rigor. Perhaps you ought to do some more reading and try again later.

If not, provide the source information for you supposed claims. What papal decree has Pope John Paul II promulgated which contradicts de fide dogmas of Catholicism?

God bless,

Dave

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Hey Pax … we cited the same Scripture. It seems clear that WanderingCatholic was shooting from the hip.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

So what you are saying is that those pope taught errors? please, I would love to read your answer.

No. What I’m saying is CITE THE SOURCE!!! You keep making claims as if you actually have a scholastic source which has convinced you what Catholic tradition truly is and the Pope John Paul II has violated it. CITE THE SOURCE!!! Who are “those popes” ? What did they teach, specifically? When did they teach it? In what document???

If the answer is “i dunno” than aren’t you just a clanging symbol?

God bless,

Dave