Loyalty to the Pope or Church

[itsjustdave1988]

Sorry. Those words were not meant for you.

The issue is not Piux X.

I hope you will then explain your “modernist mind games” remark.

Where has Pope John Paul II contradicted Pope St. Pius X’s assertion?

Furthermore, the Baltimore Catechism of 1891, which served the US wonderfully during Pope St. Pius X’s papacy stated the following:

Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never – even in the past – had the slightest doubt of that fact – what will become of him?

If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. …

If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church. … (Baltimore Catechism no. 4)

Is it your contention that the Baltimore Catechism of 1891 was also infected with modernism and is therefore untrustworthy?

God bless,

Dave

 

[WanderingCathol]

itsjustdave1988:

I hope you will then explain your “modernist mind games” remark.

Where has Pope John Paul II contradicted Pope St. Pius X’s assertion?

Furthermore, the Baltimore Catechism of 1891, which served the US wonderfully during Pope St. Pius X’s papacy stated the following:
Is it your contention that the Baltimore Catechism of 1891 was also infected with modernism and is therefore untrustworthy?

God bless,

Dave

Lets see if you are modernist?

Do you believe that muslim, jews and heretics worship the same God as catholics?

 

[Br.Dan_OCD]

How many "God"s can there be?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Actually, you’ve yet to quote from Pope John Paul II at all in this thread, so I’ve not been able to compare a thing, other than what traditional Catholic teaching states as compared to your assertions.

You asserted that Catholics alone worship God. Yet, you’ve not proved this assertion.

Certainly, Catholics alone are saved, in the sense described by Pope St. Pius X. However, can a Muslim catechumen who dies prior to baptism be saved in your interpretation? In Pope St. Pius X’s teaching, it seems he can. Can a God-fearing pagan who merely possesses an “implicit” desire for baptism (like that of Cornelius in beginning of Acts ch. 10), who dies prior to sacramental baptism be saved in your interpretation? In Pope St. Pius X’s teaching, it seems he can.

God bless,

Dave

 

[WanderingCathol]

itsjustdave1988:

Actually, since you’ve yet to quote from Pope John Paul II at all in this thread, so I’ve not been able to compare a thing, other than what traditional Catholic teaching states as compared to your assertions.

You asserted that Catholics alone worship God. Yet, you’ve not proved this assertion.

Certainly, Catholics alone are saved, in the sense described by Pope St. Pius X. However, can a Muslim catechumen who dies prior to baptism be saved in your interpretation? In Pope St. Pius X’s teaching, it seems he can. Can a Muslim catechumen who merely possesses an “implicit” desire for baptism (like that of Cornelius in Acts ch. 10), who dies prior to sacramental baptism be saved in your interpretation? In Pope St. Pius X’s teaching, it seems he can.

God bless,

Dave

. You are not giving the traditional catholic teaching. the modernist catholic church does not know the meaning of it. read it for yourself. i will qoute it again for you.

Next let Us start with the things which concern the faith which, as We mentioned above, some are endangering in order to introduce greater freedom for mixed marriages. You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that very article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation. The words of that celebrated disciple of the apostles, martyred St. Ignatius, in his letter to the Philadelphians are relevant to this matter: “Be not deceived, my brother; if anyone follows a schismatic, he will not attain the inheritance of the kingdom of God.” Moreover, St. Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: “Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ.” Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that this indeed is the teaching of the Catholic Church. He says: "The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I’ve opened my eyes, but I’ve also showed you how one who is not a juridical Catholic can worship God and be saved, according to Pope St. Pius X, who you admit is not a modernist.

Can you now see, with your eyes open, that your assertion that only Catholics worship God is not traditional Catholic teaching but merely a misinterpretation of ecclesiastical documents due to yoru methodology of relying upon your own private lights to determine the truth? If not, please explain the contradiction between your assertion and that of Pope St. Pius X and the Baltimore Catechism of 1891.

God bless,

Dave

 

[WanderingCathol]

itsjustdave1988:

I’ve opened my eyes, but I’ve also showed you how one who is not a juridical Catholic can worship God and be saved, according to Pope St. Pius X, who you admit is not a modernist.

Can you now see, with your eyes open, that your assertion that only Catholics worship God is not traditional Catholic teaching? If not, please explain the contradiction between your assertion and that of Pope St. Pius X and the Baltimore Catechism of 1891.

God bless,

Dave

We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that this indeed is the teaching of the Catholic Church. He says: "The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I understand what is written, but I also understand that you are neither a Pope or a Bishop, and so you have no authority from Jesus Christ to authentically interpret either Scritpure or Tradition. Whereas, Pope St. Pius X, a non-modernists Pope has interpreted what Pope St. Gregory the Great has stated in a manner that in not contradictory to my beliefs nor the teachings of the living magisterium vested in Pope John Paul II.

God bless,

Dave

 

[WanderingCathol]

itsjustdave1988:

I understand what is written, but I also understand that you are neither a Pope or a Bishop, and so you have no authority from Jesus Christ to authentically interpret either Scritpure or Tradition. Whereas, Pope St. Pius X, a non-modernists Pope has interpreted what Pope St. Gregory the Great has stated in a manner that in not contradictory to my beliefs nor the teachings of the living magisterium vested in Pope John Paul II.

God bless,

Dave

Ignorance does not equal a chance at salvation. This is what the modernit teach. Pius X in not in the modernist group at all.

Read Acerbo Nimis

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Furthermore,

Pope St. Gregory the Great seems to disagree with your assertion that only Catholics worship God, when he said the following:

"The passion of the Church began already with Abel, and there is one Church of the elect, of those who precede, and of those who follow. . . .

They were, then, outside, but yet not divided from the holy Church, because in mind, in work, in preaching, they already held the sacraments of faith, and saw that loftiness of Holy Church."

[St. Gregory the Great, Primasius, “On Romans” 2. 14-16. PL 68. 423-24].

Isn’t he speaking about Jews as being “outside, but yet not divided from the Holy Church”?

It seems Pope St. Gregory the Great was much broader than you think with his teaching about “**who are outside of [the Church].” **

God bless,

Dave

 

[Pax]

Dave,

You’ve got up a full head of steam. Keep on rolling

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Pope St. Pius X states “**through no fault of his” **and Pope John Paul II states: “through no fault of their own” (CCC 847).

Pope St. Piux X states: “at least has the implicit desire of Baptism” and Pope John Paul II states: “Canon.849: Baptism, the gateway to the sacraments, is necessary for salvation, either by actual reception or at least by desire.”

Pope Innocent III’s decree in 1206 concerning a Jew who desired baptism but was not able to be validly baptized: “If, however, such a man had died immediately, he would have flown to his heavenly home at once, because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith.” (Dz 413)

St. Alphonsus Liguori defines baptism of desire (flaminis) as: “Perfect conversion to God through contrition or love of God above all things, with the explicit or implicit desire voto] for true Baptism of water, in whose place it may supply, according to the Council of Trent.” He cites Session 14, on Penance, ch. 4.

Decree On August 9, 1949, the Holy Office, by order of Pope Pius XII: "It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a member of the Church, but this at least is required: that one adhere to it in wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be explicit . . . but when a man labors under invincible ignorance, God accepts even an implicit will, called by that name because it is contained in the good disposition of soul in which a man wills to conform his will to the will of God."

Seems Pope John Paul II is merely upholding the constant teaching of many popes before him.

God bless,

Dave

 

[walter]

To Tyler Smedley
I am afraid I have to disagree with the statement that the Jews are Gods chosen people. They were Gods chosen people to bring the saviour into the world. They have done that. They are not chosen anymore. The New Israel is the Catholic church and Jews will be saved through the Catholic church the same as anyone else.
That is not to say that God has rejected them - by no means.
I agree with Robert Sungenis on this one.
As far as Wanderingcatholic is concerned you have a real decision to make. I made mine when I converted to Catholicism in 2003.
There is only the one true church and you obey its leader the Pope and the magesterium or you just become another protestant.
You may not like everything that He does but he is the Pope. Sorry and God bless

 

[WanderingCathol]

itsjustdave1988:

Pope St. Pius X states “**through no fault of his” **and Pope John Paul II states: “through no fault of their own” (CCC 847).

Pope St. Piux X states: “at least has the implicit desire of Baptism” and Pope John Paul II states: “Canon.849: Baptism, the gateway to the sacraments, is necessary for salvation, either by actual reception or at least by desire.”

Pope Innocent III’s decree in 1206 concerning a Jew who desired baptism but was not able to be validly baptized: “If, however, such a man had died immediately, he would have flown to his heavenly home at once, because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith.” (Dz 413)

St. Alphonsus Liguori defines baptism of desire (flaminis) as: “Perfect conversion to God through contrition or love of God above all things, with the explicit or implicit desire voto] for true Baptism of water, in whose place it may supply, according to the Council of Trent.” He cites Session 14, on Penance, ch. 4.

Decree On August 9, 1949, the Holy Office, by order of Pope Pius XII: "It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a member of the Church, but this at least is required: that one adhere to it in wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be explicit . . . but when a man labors under invincible ignorance, God accepts even an implicit will, called by that name because it is contained in the good disposition of soul in which a man wills to conform his will to the will of God."

Seems Pope John Paul II is merely upholding the constant teaching of many popes before him.

God bless,

Dave

why do you insist on lumping jews, muslims, and heretics with people who desire to be part of the church.

Ignorance does not equal a chance at salvation. This is what the modernit teach. Pius X in not in the modernist group at all.

Read Acerbo Nimis

 

[WanderingCathol]

walter:

To Tyler Smedley
I am afraid I have to disagree with the statement that the Jews are Gods chosen people. They were Gods chosen people to bring the saviour into the world. They have done that. They are not chosen anymore. The New Israel is the Catholic church and Jews will be saved through the Catholic church the same as anyone else.
That is not to say that God has rejected them - by no means.
I agree with Robert Sungenis on this one.
As far as Wanderingcatholic is concerned you have a real decision to make. I made mine when I converted to Catholicism in 2003.
There is only the one true church and you obey its leader the Pope and the magesterium or you just become another protestant.
You may not like everything that He does but he is the Pope. Sorry and God bless

I am not bound to obey priests/bishops/cardinals or popes that teach heresy.

My loyalty is to Christ and his church. Not the particular person that occupies the seat of peter no matter how saintly he is.

 

[WanderingCathol]

itsjustdave1988:

I understand what is written, but I also understand that you are neither a Pope or a Bishop, and so you have no authority from Jesus Christ to authentically interpret either Scritpure or Tradition. Whereas, Pope St. Pius X, a non-modernists Pope has interpreted what Pope St. Gregory the Great has stated in a manner that in not contradictory to my beliefs nor the teachings of the living magisterium vested in Pope John Paul II.

God bless,

Dave

Of ocurse because Pius X and Gregory the Great both believed that muslism. jews and heretics all worship the same God.

In the modernist church you could be a good muslim and be saved. You could be a good jew and be saved. you could be a good hindu and be saved. you could be a good protestant and be saved. you could be anything but as long as you are good and are ignorant of the truth then you are saved.

Ignorance does not equal a chance at salvation. This is what the modernit teach. Pius X in not in the modernist group at all.

Read Acerbo Nimis

 

[_Christopher]

quasimodo:

WanderingC-

Jesus was a good Jew. He kept the law perfectly, yet he scandalized those who thought that he did not keep with the teachings of his predecessors.

If the Pope gave his okey-dokey to torture, I might agree with you. If he said a prayer to Shiva, you might have a point. If he declared that Mohammed is God’s true prophet you might have a point. Praying in the presence of non-Christians does not cross any lines. Listening to them pray crosses no lines.

I suggest some quality time with Hosea 6:6 and reflect on the way Jesus used it in Mt 9:13 & Mt 12:7.

A pope once gave the ok to enslave the indians in the New World.

 

[WanderingCathol]

_Christopher_:

A pope once gave the ok to enslave the indians in the New World.

slavery is even in the bible and endorsed by God. What was wrong with slavery was the particular type that was practiced by the europeans conquerors.

 

[Richard_Lamb]

To be loyal to one is to be loyal to the other…

 

[_Christopher]

WanderingCathol:

slavery is even in the bible and endorsed by God. What was wrong with slavery was the particular type that was practiced by the europeans conquerors.

So slavery is not wrong? Just a type of slavery?