Loyalty to the Pope or Church

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Mandi posed this to me in another thread. I have posted it there as well.
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Mandi:
To JLC & Mutant - On another thread (Loyalty to the Pope or Church) a post was made (post #138 by mrS4ntA) that quoted the new catechism #839 - 845, dealing with why Muslims and Jews worhiping the same God as Catholics.
Paragraphs 839-845 of the Catechism are explaining the relationship between the Church (the People of God) and non-Christian religions. One principle that must be remembered when reading the Catechism is that none of the paragraphs can be considered in total isolation of the others. The Catechism is a progressive explanation of the Faith and any part must be taken in the context of the whole. It is a failure to realize and do this that leads many into error when trying to interpret its teachings.

In terms of the relationship between Catholicism and Judaism, the relationship is strong because Judaism is the birthplace of Catholicism. Christ did not abolish the covenant with the Jews, He fulfilled it, re-established it, and expanded it to include the Gentiles. I highly recommend the book, “Salvation is from the Jews” which goes into this topic at great length. In every comment I have heard or read by converts to Judaism, they do not consider themselves to have converted “from Judaism” but rather to have discovered the fulfillment of Judaism. One said that the most Jewish thing that she ever did was to become Catholic.

In regard to the Muslims, the important point is to not go beyond what the Catechism actually says; which is what I’ve found most people do. The catechism lists three points where Muslims share faith with Catholics. The believe in only one God, the God of Abraham. So do we. They believe that God is merciful. So do we. They believe that God will judge us on the last day. So do we. The catechism says nothing beyond that. To say that we believe in the same God (the God of Abraham) does not mean that what we believe about that God is the same or equally true. The Catechism makes that clear in paragraph 844, “In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them.”

Paragraph 843 teaches that God allows non-Christian religions as “a preparation for the Gospel” and that all truth in these religions is “given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.” Because all that is good and true in non-Christian religions has God as its source, the Church does not reject the good and true aspects of these religions. This is not the same as saying that everything in these religions is good and true or that they are in any way equal to the Church Christ established for our salvation.

This is made perfectly clear in paragraph 845. “To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. …she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.” From this we can see that the Catechism does not teach any kind of heterodoxy that states that all religions are equal or that they are all paths to salvation. The purpose of the truths held by these religions is to lead them to Christ and His Church; the one and only Catholic Church. Once again, we see here the principle that the unity of the Church and humanity subsists (has its existence) in the Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church.

In what way does this constitute heresy? We have a teaching that Christ established one Church for our salvation and that all of humanity is called by God to this Church. All that is true and Good in those religions comes from God for the purpose of leading them to salvation in the Catholic Church. Their religions are not capable of providing salvation except to the extend that they lead to the one and only Catholic Church. Among the non-Christian religions the Church has the closest bond with the Jews because Judaism is the source of the covenant. Its religious history is our own. Among the other non-Christian religions, the Muslims have a closer bond than the rest because they are monotheistic (as opposed to polytheistic or pantheistic), the believe that they follow the God of Abraham (although their understanding on this point is flawed), and they believe that God is merciful and will judge us on the last day. We also believe this.

So far, I see no heresy. Indeed, I see an affirmation of the historic authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church on these matters.
 
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theMutant:
Mandi posed this to me in another thread. I have posted it there as well.

Paragraphs 839-845 of the Catechism are explaining the relationship between the Church (the People of God) and non-Christian religions. One principle that must be remembered when reading the Catechism is that none of the paragraphs can be considered in total isolation of the others. The Catechism is a progressive explanation of the Faith and any part must be taken in the context of the whole. It is a failure to realize and do this that leads many into error when trying to interpret its teachings.

In terms of the relationship between Catholicism and Judaism, the relationship is strong because Judaism is the birthplace of Catholicism. Christ did not abolish the covenant with the Jews, He fulfilled it, re-established it, and expanded it to include the Gentiles. I highly recommend the book, “Salvation is from the Jews” which goes into this topic at great length. In every comment I have heard or read by converts to Judaism, they do not consider themselves to have converted “from Judaism” but rather to have discovered the fulfillment of Judaism. One said that the most Jewish thing that she ever did was to become Catholic.

In regard to the Muslims, the important point is to not go beyond what the Catechism actually says; which is what I’ve found most people do. The catechism lists three points ** where Muslims share ** faith with Catholics. The believe in only one God, the God of Abraham. So do we. They believe that God is merciful. So do we. They believe that God will judge us on the last day. So do we. The catechism says nothing beyond that. To say that we believe in the same God (the God of Abraham) does not mean that what we believe about that God is the same or equally true. The Catechism makes that clear in paragraph 844, “In their religious behavior, however, **men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God ** in them.”

Paragraph 843 teaches that God allows non-Christian religions as “a preparation for the Gospel” and that all truth in these religions is “given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.” Because all that is good and true in non-Christian religions has God as its source, **the Church does not reject the good and true ** aspects of these religions. This is not the same as saying that everything in these religions is good and true or that they are in any way equal to the Church Christ established for our salvation.

This is made perfectly clear in paragraph 845. “To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. …she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.” From this we can see that the Catechism does not teach any kind of heterodoxy that states that all religions are equal or that they are all paths to salvation. The purpose of the truths held by these religions is to lead them to Christ and His Church; the one and only Catholic Church. Once again, we see here the principle that the unity of the Church and humanity subsists (has its existence) in the Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church.

In what way does this constitute heresy? We have a teaching that Christ established one Church for our salvation and that all of humanity is called by God to this Church. All that is true and Good in those religions comes from God for the purpose of leading them to salvation in the Catholic Church. Their religions are not capable of providing salvation except to the extend that they lead to the one and only Catholic Church. Among the non-Christian religions the Church has the closest bond with the Jews because Judaism is the source of the covenant. Its religious history is our own. Among the other non-Christian religions, the Muslims have a closer bond than the rest because they are monotheistic (as opposed to polytheistic or pantheistic), the **believe that they follow the God of Abraham ** (although their understanding on this point is flawed), and they believe that God is merciful and will judge us on the last day. **We also believe this. **
So far, I see no heresy. Indeed, I see an affirmation of the historic authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church on these matters.
emphasizes by me

👍
THANK YOU!
Exactly the points I was trying to get across!! Sorry if my rather obscure expressions had led you astray, Mandi.
 
wandering catholic,

Do you think Jesus himself will not pray with heretics but will chose to pray only with Catholics?

Think why He was hated by the Jews because he always gets along with “uncircumcised, unbelievers, tax collectors, sinners, adulterers, etc, etc.”

I wonder if you have the mind of Christ who came not for the righteous, but sinners; not just for catholics but Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, atheists, etc.

:blessyou:
Pio
 
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WanderingCathol:
anyways, my loyalty is to the church not anyone particular person that happens to occupy the chair of peter. This goes for this pope, past popes who have scandalised the church and future one.
It seems all that matters here is YOU - no matter what…
 
What WanderingCathol is saying is that the gates of the netherworld did prevail against the church. How else can we have heretic popes in a row for over a century?
 
Dear Wandering Catholic,

Have you read in the OT what happened to Mariam and to Korah when they decided they did not need to follow Moses.

Read in the New Testament about Ananias and Sapphira (Acts chapter 5). When they lied to Peter, Peter said you have “lied to the Holy Spirit”.

Any fool can find an excuse not to follow God given authority but they do so at their own peril.
 
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WanderingCathol:
I am not bound to obey priests/bishops/cardinals or popes that teach heresy.

My loyalty is to Christ and his church. Not the particular person that occupies the seat of peter no matter how saintly he is…
This is true to the degree of your understanding of **who ** it is that determines heresy. As long as the Bishop is teaching in union with the Bishop of Rome on Faith and Morals and does not contradict the Church’s understanding of the deposit of faith……we must submit in intellect and will---------
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
  1. Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.
The infallibility promised to the Church resides also in the body of Bishops, when that body exercises the supreme magisterium with the successor of Peter. To these definitions the assent of the Church can never be wanting, on account of the activity of that same Holy Spirit, by which the whole flock of Christ is preserved and progresses in unity of faith.(44*)

Be in God’s Peace,
 
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WanderingCathol:
Then you are following the pope and not the church. the pope is not the church. I will never follow a pope that scandalizers the faithful. I pray that the next one will be orthodox. Not that this one is not but he is seriously lacking in areas.

anyways, my loyalty is to the church not anyone particular person that happens to occupy the chair of peter. This goes for this pope, past popes who have scandalised the church and future one.
You can show your loyalty to the church by being loyal to the pope and vice versa, I think. This is just my opinion. Also, I think you need to reread post # 32,33,34,37, 38,41 with humility that you may understand what this people are saying. I have read up to post 63 only but it seems to me that you have already made up your mind to where your loyalty stands. You asked if you are wrong. I don’t really know but I’m leaning towards yes you are wrong. Sometimes I feel lucky that I am not as knowledgeable as you guys, for being poor in knowledge I always find humility and not pride. Peace.
 
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WanderingCathol:
and you think praying with jews, muslims and heretics has nothing to do with faith an morals?

This is not a matter of infallibility or not. It seems that everything is dismissed as " well, that was not infallible" excuse.

He should not have done it!
Wandering Catholic. If you had a fight with a neighbor, how would you fix the problem? A. By drawing more blood, or

B. By inviting them for a peaceful dialogue.

Don’t become too busy saving yourself that you push other to hell. You should be saving others too by opening the door of our faith. Not by sword but by our love and charity. If you reject the authority of the Pope, you reject Christ the founder of the true church. Please remember that one of the pope’s duty is to make disciples of all the nations. So let him do his job and let us support him on that. He did not pray with the leaders of other religion to endorse them, but to open the door of our faith. Peace.
 
Is there a pattern on this message board of suspending people with sedavanticist (sp?) viewpoints? I think I’m seeing one.
If this is a strictly Catholic board fine let everyone know that - no protestants or Muslims or Mormons or athiets etc allowed. Let that be known upfront to be fair. Free Republic is like that, it’s a conservative board - liberals are booted quick.
As far as I know tho the only accts I’m seeing getting suspended are the ones of people who argue JPII is not a valid pope. Anyone else see this? Perhaps a moderator could chime in and let us know if this is indeed the rule.
 
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kjvail:
Is there a pattern on this message board of suspending people with sedavanticist (sp?) viewpoints? I think I’m seeing one.
If this is a strictly Catholic board fine let everyone know that - no protestants or Muslims or Mormons or athiets etc allowed. Let that be known upfront to be fair. Free Republic is like that, it’s a conservative board - liberals are booted quick.
As far as I know tho the only accts I’m seeing getting suspended are the ones of people who argue JPII is not a valid pope. Anyone else see this? Perhaps a moderator could chime in and let us know if this is indeed the rule.
I know of non-sedevacantist accounts that have been banned and deleted. One was banned for telling sedevacantists that they are going to hell. There is no pattern against non-Catholics and sedevacantists on this forum. The sedevacantist accounts that have been banned were banned because they violated the rules of the forum. If you go back and read the sedevacantist threads that have been closed, you will see quite clearly how threads that initially consisted of thoughtful presentations of both sides eventually degraded to nothing more than name-calling and baseless accusations against the Pope. It is one thing to claim that previous magisterial teaching justifies their positon in holding JPII to be an invalid pope and to present that teaching in the context of a debate, it is quite another thing to consistently ignore refutation of their claims and move on to unsupportable claims that the Pope is a Mason.
 
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