Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic

[Vonsalza]

Nope. You and I both are members of His OHCA Church.
His Church is not only and exclusively in communion with the pope.

There appears to be a contradiction here, Jon. Multiple, actually.

The “O” and “A” are under some dispute as is, implicitly, the “C”.

A path we’ve worn well, right?

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I’m not sure I’ve asked though; why do you reject universal jurisdiction? You don’t think Peter was head of the Church nor that the Roman Church enjoyed a status as “arbiter of last resort” over the entire Church Catholic?

 

[guanophore]

Oh okay, so you don’t really follow Martin Luther? So whether we come to agreement in this thread about Luther or not doesn’t really help, instead we should probably be talking about King Henry and St Thomas Moore?

That would be off the thread topic. Come to think of it, so is attacking other CAF members who are believed to “follow Luther”.

 

[guanophore]

An excommunication ends with the death of the excommunicant, so removing it becomes an non-issue. Nor could a Pope state that the excommunication never happened, as it is an historical truth.

Not necessarily. The goal of it is to upbraid the person so they return to the Church. When that happens, the excommunication is lifted.

 

[TertiumQuid]

I think what’s being alluded to is megalomania.

During the first five hundred years of Catholic evaluations of Luther, a strong emphasis on vilifying Luther’s character as a means of discrediting the Reformation was the normal Catholic approach. The emphasis shifted in the Twentieth Century: Catholic scholarship began to study Luther as a sincere religious man and an honest theologian… except here on the Catholic Answers forums!

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

I think what’s being alluded to is megalomania.

During the first five hundred years of Catholic evaluations of Luther, a strong emphasis on vilifying Luther’s character as a means of discrediting the Reformation was the normal Catholic approach. The emphasis shifted in the Twentieth Century: Catholic scholarship began to study Luther as a sincere religious man and an honest theologian… except here on the Catholic Answers forums!

Not sure what you’re trying to do here.

I was just trying to provide a little clarity on the use of “Social Popularity” being used by @StarMapp.

And modern scholarship is more complicated than that. Scholars currently view Luther as a man of his times with his own afflictions. Things like “heroic/evil reformer” and “honest theologian” are honorifics and would thus be excluded from objective academic discussion.

 

[Brendan]

Not necessarily. The goal of it is to upbraid the person so they return to the Church. When that happens, the excommunication is lifted.

If the person dies first (as Luther did), there is no further ability to upbraid the person, so the excommunication ends. Thus my statement stands.

 

[JonNC]

Social popularity”? Now there’s a unique interpretation of Luther and the Reformation.

Yeah. That’s interesting.

 

[JonNC]

During the first five hundred years of Catholic evaluations of Luther, a strong emphasis on vilifying Luther’s character as a means of discrediting the Reformation was the normal Catholic approach. The emphasis shifted in the Twentieth Century: Catholic scholarship began to study Luther as a sincere religious man and an honest theologian… except here on the Catholic Answers forums!

Well, not all of CAF. There are some Catholics who are following the lead of Catholic hierarchy regarding Luther.

 

[TertiumQuid]

Not sure what you’re trying to do here. I was just trying to provide a little clarity on the use of “Social Popularity” being used by @StarMapp.
And modern scholarship is more complicated than that. Scholars currently view Luther as a man of his times with his own afflictions. Things like “heroic/evil reformer” and “honest theologian” are honorifics and would thus be excluded from objective academic discussion.

For the most part, what “I’ve tried to do here” is sit back and listen. I rarely comment, but watching Jon doing “here I stand” by himself, well… he needs to know he’s not alone. There is a fair amount of obvious Luther-bashing going on, the quote from “StarMapp” I commented on was a pure example.

In regard to scholarship, you make a great point about it being complicated. However, I am capable of defending my assertion, that there is a noticeable shift in Catholic Luther scholarship as I’ve described it. It’s not my theory. There have been a number of studies that document it. I can recommend some sources if you are interested.

 

[Vonsalza]

For the most part, what “I’ve tried to do here” is sit back and listen.

I wasn’t referring to “the most part”. I was referring to this specific post where you responded to my suggestion of a better word describing “social popularity”.

I rarely comment, but watching Jon doing “here I stand” by himself, well… he needs to know he’s not alone.

I’m sure he appreciates it. But I doubt he needs your help.

And fair reminder to all; this is a Catholic “house” you’re visiting. If the pro-Catholic bias becomes too much to bear, the “exit” is located on the top right for most internet browsers.

There have been a number of studies that document it. I can recommend some sources if you are interested.

I wasn’t aware that “Catholic attitudes on Luther over time” is something that has been academically studied.

Just for novelty sake, I’d like to see them.

 

[JonNC]

There appears to be a contradiction here, Jon. Multiple, actually.

The “O” and “A” are under some dispute as is, implicitly, the “C”.

I see no contradiction. One Holy Catholic Apostolic. Pretty clear

I’m not sure I’ve asked though; why do you reject universal jurisdiction? You don’t think Peter was head of the Church nor that the Roman Church enjoyed a status as “arbiter of last resort” over the entire Church Catholic?

Oh, clearly the Roman see had and has primacy among the patriarchs.
But primacy was not and is not supremacy. Primacy is not universal jurisdiction, according to the other patriarchs.

 

[KMG]

Luther was a heretic. That fact cannot be changed.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

There appears to be a contradiction here, Jon. Multiple, actually.

The “O” and “A” are under some dispute as is, implicitly, the “C”.

I see no contradiction. One Holy Catholic Apostolic. Pretty clear

I’m not sure I’ve asked though; why do you reject universal jurisdiction? You don’t think Peter was head of the Church nor that the Roman Church enjoyed a status as “arbiter of last resort” over the entire Church Catholic?

Oh, clearly the Roman see had and has primacy among the patriarchs.
But primacy was not and is not supremacy. Primacy is not universal jurisdiction, according to the other patriarchs.

Yeah, what non-Catholics and Catholics mean by “supremacy” usually isn’t the same thing in my experience.

So how about that arbiter role Irenaeus identifes in the 2nd century? Made up? Because that relates intimately with jurisdiction.

 

[JonNC]

And fair reminder to all; this is a Catholic “house” you’re visiting. If the pro-Catholic bias becomes too much to bear, the “exit” is located on the top right for most internet browsers.

Yes. You’ve made clear in the past your disdain for ecumenical dialogue, a rather antiCatholic approach, yet here you are in the nonCatholic forum inviting nonCatholics off the forum as if you had a say who does and doesn’t post.
I’m sure James doesn’t need your help in that decision.

 

[JonNC]

Luther was a heretic. That fact cannot be changed.

Got it. According to the Catholic Church he was a heretic.

 

[KMG]

Catholic Church…which possesses the fullness of the truth.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

And fair reminder to all; this is a Catholic “house” you’re visiting. If the pro-Catholic bias becomes too much to bear, the “exit” is located on the top right for most internet browsers.

Yes. You’ve made clear in the past your disdain for ecumenical dialogue, a rather antiCatholic approach, yet here you are in the nonCatholic forum inviting nonCatholics off the forum as if you had a say who does and doesn’t post.
I’m sure James doesn’t need your help in that decision.

Oh cease with the ad hominems, Jon. I just enjoy vigorous debate and I don’t care at all if someone’s feelings get hurt because they should be able to separate themselves from their ideas in the very first place.

And while you naturally assume a non-Catholic sub-forum of a Catholic website is targeted for ecumenism, I think it’s also an opportunity for lively debate.

Judging by many of the threads I see, I’m at least partially right.

Now could you please offer your thoughts on Rome’s supposed role as arbiter if she has no universal jurisdiction?

 

[TertiumQuid]

I wasn’t aware that “Catholic attitudes on Luther over time” is something that has been academically studied.

Just for novelty sake, I’d like to see them.

Sure. Here are a few English sources to start with.

Richard Stauffer, Luther As Seen By Catholics, (Virginia: John Knox Press, 1967)

Gregory Sobolewski, Martin Luther Roman Catholic Prophet (Milwaukee: Marquette University Press, 2001)

I’m fond of Stauffer’s book. I have a lot of other references, but Stauffer is really a good place to start. Sobolewski is a more current treatment, basically echoing the same material presented by Stauffer back in the late 1960’s.

Simply stated, the paradigm that’s generally accepted is that Catholic historian Joseph Lortz was the turning point in Catholic Luther scholarship. Here’s an interesting observation from Pope Benedict (while he was still a Cardinal)-

Question: Where does Luther scholarship stand today? Have there been any attempts to research Luther’s theology, beyond existing historical investigations?

Cardinal Ratzinger: Nobody can answer this question in a few sentences. Besides, it would require a special kind of knowledge which I do not possess. It might be helpful,however, briefly to mention a few names which represent the various stages and trends of Catholic Luther scholarship. At the beginning of the century we have the decidedly polemical work by the Dominican H. Denifle. He was responsible for placing Luther in the context of the Scholastic tradition, which Denifle knew better than anybody else because of his intimate knowledge of the manuscript materials. He is followed by the much more conciliatory Jesuit, Grisar, who, to be sure, encountered various criticisms because of the psychological patterns in which he sought to explain the problem of Luther. J. Lortz from Luxembourg became the father of modern Catholic Luther scholarship. He is still considered the turning-point in the struggle for an historically truthful and theologically adequate image of Luther. Against the background of the theological movement between the two world wars, Lortz could develop new ways of questioning which, subsequently, would lead to a new assessment of Luther.

 

[TertiumQuid]

Got it. According to the Catholic Church he was a heretic.

Yes and no, Jon. Catholic historian (and Trent expert) Hubert Jedin is purported to have said something like, Luther was never officially condemned by name at Trent, so Catholics have no official judgment on Luther binding them. See, Atkinson, p.30.

My Jedin notes are alluding me at the moment, i’m also on my way out the door.

 

[guanophore]

For the most part, what “I’ve tried to do here” is sit back and listen.

Don’t be reticent! Throw yourself into the fray!