Luther Has Been Dead for Nearly 500 Years - Enough Already

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Tomyris said:
Luther has been dead for nearly 500 years. Enough already.
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If you say so. 🙂

Modern Lutherans have nothing to do with Luther except in name and they do not follow Luther’s teaching.It is only fair that we should not associate Luther anymore with Lutherism but instead to work for unity with the Catholic Church so that we can be one once more as if before Luther. 👍

And maybe do not teach Catholic children anymore about Luther. As it is now, ask any Catholic, he/she will tell you that Luther broke away from the Catholic Church and thus began the great splintering of the one Church into many churches that we see today.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit is moving today and is healing the pain caused by the broken Church and working towards a unified Church once again. It is encouraging to hear our separate brethren saying this. All is left now is to tell Catholics who have not known this.

Looking forwards for that day when we will be one.
 
Tomyris said:
Luther has been dead for nearly 500 years. Enough already.
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Enough of what? People (you know who you are!) making off-colour jokes about Pope Francis celebrating a liturgy with a gay Lutheran pastor in 2017, and thinking they’re being so edgy and Sedeprivationist? The same folks calling Luther a “psychotic alcoholic”, causing my poor psychiatrist’s heart to break at this abuse of scientific nosology? I’m with you. Leave the man alone. 😃
 
Tomyris said:
Luther has been dead for nearly 500 years. Enough already.
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But don’t you know that Luther was a jealous, greedy, quarrelsome and incredibly immoral heretic?

After all, the most trusted Catholic source for 450 years of Catholic study of Luther piously recorded how, at the age of fifteen, Luther indulged in illicit sex with his benefactress, Frau cotta zu Eisenach. Then, as a young Augustinian monk, he lived in concubinage with three nuns, during which time he allegedly contracted venereal disease. It’s no surprise, really, as Luther was conceived via a hot, steamy bathhouse union between Satan and Luther’s mother, who later regretted not having murdered him in the cradle. His “Father” dragged him off to hell upon his death, too. I mean, when you’re literally the child of Satan, what can you expect?

Clearly, I jest. But so long as people continue to read the “colorful” polemics of the past as truth (and I include some of Luther’s own works here), we’ll be stuck trying to quiet the divisive voices that prevent Christendom from being one again. So lets do our best to not give ammunition to future generations, hey?
 
steido01 said:
But don’t you know that Luther was a jealous, greedy, quarrelsome and incredibly immoral heretic?

After all, the most trusted Catholic source for 450 years of Catholic study of Luther piously recorded how, at the age of fifteen, Luther indulged in illicit sex with his benefactress, Frau cotta zu Eisenach. Then, as a young Augustinian monk, he lived in concubinage with three nuns, during which time he allegedly contracted venereal disease. It’s no surprise, really, as Luther was conceived via a hot, steamy bathhouse union between Satan and Luther’s mother, who later regretted not having murdered him in the cradle. His “Father” dragged him off to hell upon his death, too. I mean, when you’re literally the child of Satan, what can you expect?

Clearly, I jest. But so long as people continue to read the “colorful” polemics of the past as truth (and I include some of Luther’s own works here), we’ll be stuck trying to quiet the divisive voices that prevent Christendom from being one again. So lets do our best to not give ammunition to future generations, hey?
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:sad_yes:

“With words like these, we don’t cure patients, we make them incurable.” - Saint Peter Canisius, 450 years before the Second Vatican Council
 
Martin Luther is pretty important for Christian history. There will never be enough talk of Luther.
 
Martin Luther had some good points. He wanted to fix the issues with the Church. He did not want to break away from it.
 
anon67074017 said:
Martin Luther had some good points. He wanted to fix the issues with the Church. He did not want to break away from it.
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Exactly. But when he realized later on that the Church would not change its ways (it later did, but after he was dead), he wanted there to be a singular Protestant church. He had plans for it, to be democratic in nature and preventing corruption, but it didn’t turn out once Anabaptists emerged, then Calvinists, Presbyterians, and so on…

He did not even want the new German Protestants to call themselves Lutherans, just merely Christians.

But we always will have the Communion of Saints: we are all one in Christ, and it will always be so.
 
Tomyris said:
Luther has been dead for nearly 500 years. Enough already.
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👍

He still has a lot to teach Christians of any denomination though. Not saying he is perfect, far from it. But a great man and a great Christian. Sure to draw a lively crowd too, even 500 years on, as you note.
 
So people want me to say enough of what?
  • blaming him for the decline and fall of European civilization as well as icky fall colors in women’s fashion
  • creating threads :Post one: this thread is on blue skies
    Post two: they have blue skies in Germany
    Post 3: Luther was German
    Posts 4-1000: Luther was a madman who wrecked the west
Catholics here emphasize Luther a lot more than Protestants do. There is a robust notion here that he is some kind of apostle and his teaching is unquestioned that despite all the discussions we have had, lingers on and on and on.

One day Luther woke up and said, I am going to go get me some schism! Bwuahaha! Lots of other people said, schism sounds good! Let’s split the church!

That was then. Well, no. It wasn’t like that. The Reformation may be the most complex historical event that ever occurred. People think they can sum it up in a tweet: Luther bad. Church good. It was extremely complex from any perspective. I’m talking from any theological perspective in the west. Or economic, historical, cultural. Most people don’t bring up dog grooming. That was probably complex, too, but never mind.

Never mind any of it. We have to deal with today. All those people who lived at the time of the Reformation are …dead. The theology and understandings of those who are the ‘inheritors’, if you will, of the Reformation AND of the Counter-Reformation have changed. Now we took across the divide.

The Church has said, they messed it up big time back then. Whoops. What are we going to do now? We can’t go back then and slap Martin upside the head and give him a wedgie theologically! All we can deal with is the time that we have to deal with now. Tolkien said it much better than I just did, but he had an English accent and he could write. Man, could he! We have to deal with today and not think that we are going to solve the problems of 500 years ago by resetting theology to back then and moving on. A lot has happened in 500 years. A lot.

People are waaaay too interested in digging up old muck and throwing it at those of a different theological opinion. It did not fix ANYTHING. I like what I am hearing about the push of the last 50 years on ecumenism. People need to get on board with it and forget about Martin Luther, who probably did not know how to groom a dog and that is why the Reformation happened. Never mind that last part. We are not clones of Martin Luther, Mary Martin or Martin Lloyd. Never mind them, either. We are people, on both sides, not caricatures, not cartoons, but people with dignity and thought and faith, and we need to engage each other in reality and not by trotting out the last 500 threads on why Martin Luther put the toilet paper on the roll wrong theologically. As Christians we have to engage today’s issues and fight today’s war, not a battle that was comfortable that ended long ago. We need to be allies, people, us Protestants and Catholics, and learn to groom dogs together (never mind that part) without quarrels as a witness to a world that is, in many places, freezing us out and kicking us out and burning us out. Denying tenure because of faith. Denying religious exemptions. A rampant, arrogant secularism and other forces I need not go into have arisen, and we are sitting around blaming Martin Luther. Gah.

I have had enough.
 
Tomyris said:
So people want me to say enough of what?
  • blaming him for the decline and fall of European civilization as well as icky fall colors in women’s fashion
  • creating threads :Post one: this thread is on blue skies
    Post two: they have blue skies in Germany
    Post 3: Luther was German
    Posts 4-1000: Luther was a madman who wrecked the west
Catholics here emphasize Luther a lot more than Protestants do. There is a robust notion here that he is some kind of apostle and his teaching is unquestioned that despite all the discussions we have had, lingers on and on and on.

One day Luther woke up and said, I am going to go get me some schism! Bwuahaha! Lots of other people said, schism sounds good! Let’s split the church!

That was then. Well, no. It wasn’t like that. The Reformation may be the most complex historical event that ever occurred. People think they can sum it up in a tweet: Luther bad. Church good. It was extremely complex from any perspective. I’m talking from any theological perspective in the west. Or economic, historical, cultural. Most people don’t bring up dog grooming. That was probably complex, too, but never mind.

Never mind any of it. We have to deal with today. All those people who lived at the time of the Reformation are …dead. The theology and understandings of those who are the ‘inheritors’, if you will, of the Reformation AND of the Counter-Reformation have changed. Now we took across the divide.

The Church has said, they messed it up big time back then. Whoops. What are we going to do now? We can’t go back then and slap Martin upside the head and give him a wedgie theologically! All we can deal with is the time that we have to deal with now. Tolkien said it much better than I just did, but he had an English accent and he could write. Man, could he! We have to deal with today and not think that we are going to solve the problems of 500 years ago by resetting theology to back then and moving on. A lot has happened in 500 years. A lot.

People are waaaay too interested in digging up old muck and throwing it at those of a different theological opinion. It did not fix ANYTHING. I like what I am hearing about the push of the last 50 years on ecumenism. People need to get on board with it and forget about Martin Luther, who probably did not know how to groom a dog and that is why the Reformation happened. Never mind that last part. We are not clones of Martin Luther, Mary Martin or Martin Lloyd. Never mind them, either. We are people, on both sides, not caricatures, not cartoons, but people with dignity and thought and faith, and we need to engage each other in reality and not by trotting out the last 500 threads on why Martin Luther put the toilet paper on the roll wrong theologically. As Christians we have to engage today’s issues and fight today’s war, not a battle that was comfortable that ended long ago. We need to be allies, people, us Protestants and Catholics, and learn to groom dogs together (never mind that part) without quarrels as a witness to a world that is, in many places, freezing us out and kicking us out and burning us out. Denying tenure because of faith. Denying religious exemptions. A rampant, arrogant secularism and other forces I need not go into have arisen, and we are sitting around blaming Martin Luther. Gah.

I have had enough.
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With all due respect, and I confess to not reading all the posts in this thread, but maybe you just need a break from the NCR forum. I have not been here in awhile and feel great about being a Catholic *and *about Martin Luther, and about Martin Luther’s very substantive and spiritual contribution to Christian history. :heaven:

IMHO we can’t throw Luther overboard; he is too important for that; he has too much that is relevant to say to any Christian in any time. You are shortchanging him. As for the Luther bashing…it is what it is. Same thing you see with eyes rolled into the head frothing at the mouth anti-Catholicism in the darker corners of Orthodoxy and/or Calvinistic leaning Protestants (or Lutheran…).

I agree Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox need to be on the same page. We can also I would hope learn from and respect the great Christians that have lived in all denominations, present and past, warts and all.

In short, consider the source…
🎉

“You have as much laughter as you have faith.”
― Martin Luther

“God does not need your good works, but your neighbor does.”
― Martin Luther

“The gospel cannot be truly preached without offense and tumult.”
― Martin Luther, The Table Talk of Martin Luther
 
FollowChrist34 said:
IMHO we can’t throw Luther overboard; he is too important for that; he has too much that is relevant to say to any Christian in any time. You are shortchanging him. As for the Luther bashing…it is what it is. Same thing you see with eyes rolled into the head frothing at the mouth anti-Catholicism in the darker corners of Orthodoxy and/or Calvinistic leaning Protestants (or Lutheran…).

I agree Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox need to be on the same page. We can also I would hope learn from and respect the great Christians that have lived in all denominations, present and past, warts and all.
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I agree! 👍

I suppose that this also goes back to the Communion of Saints, the idea that we’re all brothers and sisters in Christ. In fact, Martin Luther chose October 31st as the day to reveal his Ninety-Five Theses because the next day was All Saints’ Day.
 
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