Luther was right

[workingman]

Scripture interprets tradition, tradition should not interpret scripture.

I dont know Luthers stance on baptism. I presume I would agree with most of it but disagree with a small portion.
It is not suprising that Luther, a trainned Catholic theologian would retain many of the Catholic beliefs.

Luther wanted debate. Rome wanted submission. The secular authorities wanted to be free from Romes influence. The people wanted less theocracy and more liberality. Thus a perfect storm for the schism. Luther was but only one of many players in the Reformation and to lay the total responsbility on him is to ignore Romes part as well as secular influences.

\His stance on Baptism and the Eucharist are drawn from scripture. He believed in the true presence in the Eucharist and infant Baptism. Though the CC states that they do not have apastolic sucession and so invalid sacraments. I recommend the Book of Concordia on line version to understand allot of Luthers principals before you go saying he is right.

Yes hind sight is 20/20. Luther wanted more than debate he wanted change and in the abuses going on at the time they did need some change. Rome could of handeld things better also. Luther could of also had a better approach. Yes their were many other players also Calvin, Zwingly, Phillip Malangthon. These were on the Reformers end. Luther did not agree with Calvin and Zwingly on allot of topics. There is plenty of blame to go around for all on how things were handeled.

 

[authenticity]

Unless Luther had a benefactor He would have been murdered like those that went before him. His crime? To believe the scriptures.
And to believe they had more authority than the pope.

The question isn’t about the authority of Scripture. It’s about the authority to interpret Scripture. The Church says it is the Church. Luther says it is anyone who can read.

 

[authenticity]

What did any of those things mean to Luther anyway?

Did he even care about any of those things?

It’s hard to judge what a person cares about, especially 500 years later. His theology certainly didn’t uphold what all those things originally meant. And it effectively made much of the first 1500 years of Christianity nonsense.

 

[Tanner9188]

How does this contradict what I’ve said?

**I have this written in the NIV I have:

"My teachings is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. If anyone chooses to do God’s will (which I do as I have not separated myself from his Church** ***(YOU HAVE NEVER COME TO HIS CHURCH IMO - IT IS NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC) ***he will find out whether my teachings comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own (outside of apostolic authority) **SCRIPTURE IS THE APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY _ NOT THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH)**does so to gain honor for himself but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

This does not refute what I’ve said as I have remarked that the Church has authority from God to preach what she does because of apostolic succession. Furthermore, I do not believe the Church on blind faith I ask the Holy Spirit to verify these truths for me, which like the Bereans I have found to be true.

**Apostolic succession is made up theology that cannot be shown from Scripture; the Holy Spirit is one one that provides the spiritual gifts of pastoring, teaching, giving etc to INDIVIDUALS that make up the body, which is the church of God; he left no other provision for “church”; no where is Roman Catholic church ever mentioned explicitly or implicitly…do you believe that? Do you believe that? Do you?

It is God alone that calls a person to preach and/or teach…Do you believe that?**

**“As Christ told his disciples: “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me” (Luke 10:16).”

The disciples were the apostles and he was directing them to tell the truth to all people everywhere. If you reject the apostolic interpretation (sacred tradition) of sacred scripture you are in effect rejecting God.**

What is the church? In your opinion? What is God’s definition of “the church”?

 

[Tanner9188]

The question isn’t about the authority of Scripture. It’s about the authority to interpret Scripture. The Church says it is the Church. Luther says it is anyone who can read.

The Scripture and the Apostles taught it was from God; so who is correct; the Roman Catholic Church or God? They both can’t be right because they contradict each other; which can be proven beyond any doubt; except in the minds of the unregenerate, who cannot understand.

 

[DeusVult09]

As an ex protestant (Pentecostal) I feel I am qualifed to say that Matrin Luther was a vile hatemongering anti-semite . If he was the man god chose for his great reformation of “evil catholocism” he must have really been scraping the bottom of the barrel. lol

Funny how his sola scriptura doctrine works when he got rid of 7 books of the bible , tried to get rid of the book of revelation and had serious questions about the epistles of James because it didn’t fit with his theology.

 

[authenticity]

The Scripture and the Apostles taught it was from God; so who is correct; the Roman Catholic Church or God? They both can’t be right because they contradict each other; which can be proven beyond any doubt; except in the minds of the unregenerate, who cannot understand.

Catholics believe that Scripture is the inspired Word of God, so I’m not sure what you are talking about. As I said, the question is about authority to interpret Scripture, not the authority of Scripture itself. The Church and Scripture do not contradict each other.

To use an example, the Constitution forms the basis of our law. It serves the purpose of creating an organized government for the betterment of the country’s citizens.

Who has the authority to interpret the Constitution? Can anyone interpret the law? What would be the outcome if that were true? Would it be the same outcome as the intended objective of those who framed the Constitution in the first place?

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Thank God for that and for the Reformaion.

That gave rise to many religious wars of revolution that torn Europe apart and caused the death of thousands. Those wars of religion against the Catholic Church and Catholic society gave birth to secular revolutions with its hatred of all things Christian. A Direct result of Fr. Luther’s revolt is the modern governments of the western world with their seperation of the Christian Faith from the secular government. The European Union would not even recognize the Chirstian Catholic Faith in the development of western Europe. In Catholic Christendom there never would have been allowed abortion, pornography, or euthanasia. Thank God for the reformation, no because it was not of God.

Long reigh Christ the King!

 

[chris_molter]

As an ex protestant (Pentecostal) I feel I am qualifed to say that Matrin Luther was a vile hatemongering anti-semite . If he was the man god chose for his great reformation of “evil catholocism” he must have really been scraping the bottom of the barrel. lol

I don’t disagree, but to be fair we’ve had our share of vile Popes, Bishops, Abbots, etc.

Of course, that’s sticking with Jesus’ archetype for an Apostle. Just look at St. Peter!

I always like to say “Jesus picked a lying coward as the first Pope. The rest: some better, some worse!”

Fortunately for us, Papa Ben is one of the best!!

 

[JonNC]

=DeusVult09;5560732]As an ex protestant (Pentecostal) I feel I am qualifed to say that Matrin Luther was a vile hatemongering anti-semite . If he was the man god chose for his great reformation of “evil catholocism” he must have really been scraping the bottom of the barrel. lol

How on earth does previously being a Pentecostal “qualify” you to comment on Luther? I didn’t know Pentecostals were about to become Lutheran.
You base your characterization - your judgement, as it were - on what? How much of his writings about the Jews have you read? How much have you read about the terrible anti-judaism of the Catholic Church of that time did you review before converting?

How much of Luther’s Small Catechism did you read when your were a Pentecostal? How about his commentary on the Eighth Commandment?

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

What does this mean?–Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

Funny how his sola scriptura doctrine works when he got rid of 7 books of the bible , tried to get rid of the book of revelation and had serious questions about the epistles of James because it didn’t fit with his theology.

Cite for me which Luther translation “got rid of” any books of the traditional western Bible.
Are you aware of the questioning of all of these books by many good Catholic down through the ages prior to Luther? Are you aware that questioning them was permitted by the Church until Trent? Are you aware that Luther preached from Revelations late into his life?

Jon

 

[Sword_Brethren]

**As expected; words without any substance.

I’ll give you a heads up on justification. First justification and salvation are one in the same; justifcation is the positive of the new life in Christ and Salvation is the negative of the new life in Christ. Two sides of he same coin.

Justification is God declaring a person righteous before Himself; thus escaping the penalty of sin, which is death and separation from God. Salvation is the negative, where the believer is saved from something, which is the penalty of sin, which is death and separation from God. What is the means of this justification or salvation; is it not having faith in Jesus; or believing in the person and work of Christ, which we can only do by faith alone, since we were not there as witnesses.

Now let’s see if the Bible has anything to say about how we are justified before God. Take out a pen and paper and write some versus down for later reference.

Romans 4 “the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith**”…"For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants…"Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

Romans 5 “The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment {arose} from one {transgression} resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification.”

Romans 5 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

If you would spend the next 6 months, eery single day, doing an in-depth study of Romans; you would reach another conclusion about many things. Romans has been referred by many believers as the “Greatest Book Ever Written”; it is true IMO.

This is the tip of the iceberg; I’ll through a couple of more in for consideration.

“BUT THE RIGHTEOUS {man} SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” cf Habakkuk 2:4, ro 3:21, 9:30, php 3:9, gal 3:11 & heb 10:38

Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Justified = dikaioō
Righteous = dikaioō

Defined: to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Please wake up; please I implore you; please Lord.

As expected, full of Pride and self love.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

And destroyed Christendom? Since when did the gates of hell prevail?
Luther’s pride? Luther’s pride was matched by the pride and arrogance of a pope who allowed abuses, because of his desire for duckets.
Europe dead to Christ? If Europe, home to the current pope, is dead to Christ, I don’t see how anyone can blame Luther or Leo, dead these 500 years.
Luther…end of Chiritian unity? 1054 was the first break in Christian unity. Tough to lay that one on Luther.

Lack of Christian unity cannot be blamed on the past. That’s a cheap easy way out. Schism and division is our fault - right now, today - ours and our leaders (Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox, Anglican, Reformed, all of us). No one gets off the hook. We are all guilty of the sin of disunity, and should be asking forgiveness, from God, and from each other, not blaming dead people.

**Luther was nothing more than a false prophet. ** Luther was not a prophet at all, false or otherwise.

Jon

Christendom is not the Church. Its was an European society unified by the Catholic Faith.
Just Becasue the Pope is in Vatican City does not make the European secular governments and society holy. Godless Socialist governments are the norm in Europe.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

**Do a word search on the words support and the word foundation in the NT; then you discover the truth. ]**the truth? What authority do you interpret holy scripture? Are you the great interpreter of the Word? Why trust tanners interpretation?

2 Peter 3:16, “As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.”

Romans 10:15 “And how shall they preach unless they be sent” Who sent tanner to preach?

 

[JonNC]

Christendom is not the Church. Its was an European society unified by the Catholic Faith.
Just Becasue the Pope is in Vatican City does not make the European secular governments and society holy. Godless Socialist governments are the norm in Europe.

Now, that I agree with, and we’re headed that way ourselves. I understand your point, but frankly fail to see how this is Luther’s fault, unless you want to blame all of those involved in the Reformation - including Leo X. And while some Protestants in general, Lutherans in particular, would love to blame something else on Leo X, I can’t see how this works.

Jon

 

[Tanner9188]

Catholics believe that Scripture is the inspired Word of God, so I’m not sure what you are talking about. As I said, the question is about authority to interpret Scripture, not the authority of Scripture itself. The Church and Scripture do not contradict each other.

To use an example, the Constitution forms the basis of our law. It serves the purpose of creating an organized government for the betterment of the country’s citizens.

Who has the authority to interpret the Constitution? Can anyone interpret the law? What would be the outcome if that were true? Would it be the same outcome as the intended objective of those who framed the Constitution in the first place?

**All that would be great if God had not spoke on the topic already? Do you know what He said concerning the understanding or interpretation of His word? What does He say? Hint: It is not the Roman Catholic Church as you have probably been lead to believe.

The authority to interpret the Constitution is spelled out in the Constitution, called the Supreme Court of the US; just as the authority to interpret Scripture was spelled out by God.**

 

[Tanner9188]

That gave rise to many religious wars of revolution that torn Europe apart and caused the death of thousands. Those wars of religion against the Catholic Church and Catholic society gave birth to secular revolutions with its hatred of all things Christian. A Direct result of Fr. Luther’s revolt is the modern governments of the western world with their seperation of the Christian Faith from the secular government. The European Union would not even recognize the Chirstian Catholic Faith in the development of western Europe. In Catholic Christendom there never would have been allowed abortion, pornography, or euthanasia. Thank God for the reformation, no because it was not of God.

Long reigh Christ the King!

You need to get a copy of “Foxes Book of Martyr’s” ; so you can see both sides. Your Church has more than enough blood and other things on its hands; that one day will be judged by God IMO.

 

[Tanner9188]

I don’t disagree, but to be fair we’ve had our share of vile Popes, Bishops, Abbots, etc.

Of course, that’s sticking with Jesus’ archetype for an Apostle. Just look at St. Peter!

I always like to say “Jesus picked a lying coward as the first Pope. The rest: some better, some worse!”

Fortunately for us, Papa Ben is one of the best!!

**
Unfortunately; Jesus never picked any pope and He does not recognize the popes authority…do you believe that? What does the Scripture tell us?**

 

[Tanner9188]

As expected, full of Pride and self love.

"the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection" :imsorry:

 

[Tanner9188]

the truth? What authority do you interpret holy scripture? Are you the great interpreter of the Word? Why trust tanners interpretation?

2 Peter 3:16, “As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.”

Romans 10:15 “And how shall they preach unless they be sent” Who sent tanner to preach?

**At least you are improving; you cited some Scripture albeit in a devilish fashion.

Answer a simple question; in your own words or thoughts or knowledge of Scripture. What does God say about how we are to know His truth?**

 

[Convert66]

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