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steido01
Guest
Amen!
Though, as you’ve noted, it certainly would be wonderful to see all of His children in a more perfect communion. Keep praying.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
Thank you kindly good sir. Those are there answers I suspected and I respectfully disagreeSee above.
Jon
Well, let me ask you this, Dustin.
I, as a Lutheran, decided to take the time and explore Catholic teaching, to try and understand it better. Do you believe that I would have been better off, under "invincible ignorance, not doing this? Would you recommend to other non-Catholics to remain as ignorant of Catholic teaching as possible?
Jon
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aidanbradypop
Guest
I would answer that by your answers that you provided, you already know Catholic teachings because you are a member of the Catholic Church, just not in communion with Rome. I would never discourage non Catholics from getting to understand the teachings of the Church. I will add, however, that once one comes to an understanding of such teachings, one will be held accountable for that knowledge. Whether that good or bad I do not know for that is solely up to God.
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MaryT777
Guest
I love it when people explore Catholicism for that is how people eventually convert, some slower than others but eventually it usually happens.
My suspicion is that this answer is more in line with Catholic Church teaching than the triumphalism Ufam usually presents. Don’t get me wrong, I love Ufam, but I have little time for triumphalism, be it Catholic or Lutheran, because it is man’s attempt to God in a box.
Jon
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aidanbradypop
Guest
As much as I love to point out where Lutherans are falsely mistaken, I cannot fault anyone for being devout in their faith to God and the denomination they belong. The Church states that there is one Church and does not include Lutherans in the OHCAC, however, I believe God is just and will show mercy to those who love and seek Him.
It also says that we are joined to the Church through our baptism, too. And I completely agree that grace and mercy belong to those who have faith that works through love.
Jon
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MaryT777
Guest
I thought someone posted CCC817 on this thread but it was not posted in its entirety; I don’t see it now but here it is in it’s entirety just for the record.
817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
Mary.
817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
Mary.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
You as an individual, not your church, Is joined to the Church through your baptism.
Well, since Lutherans baptize infants, then virtually all members of the Lutheran Church are baptized, and joined to the Church, which means that… oh, never mind.
Jon
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aidanbradypop
Guest
LolWell, since Lutherans baptize infants, then virtually all members of the Lutheran Church are baptized, and joined to the Church, which means that… oh, never mind.
Jon
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steido01
Guest
THIS.
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MaryT777
Guest
JonNC;11094068]Well, since Lutherans baptize infants, then virtually all members of the Lutheran Church are baptized, and joined to the Church, which means that… oh, never mind.
Jon
:
Couldn’t resist could you Jon?
Mary.
Jon
:Couldn’t resist could you Jon?
Mary.
=MaryT777;11094122]
JonNC;11094068]Well, since Lutherans baptize infants, then virtually all members of the Lutheran Church are baptized, and joined to the Church, which means that… oh, never mind.
Couldn’t resist could you Jon?
Mary.
The Catholics made me do it. :blushing:
Jon
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MoreCoffee
Guest
Say it isn’t so!
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Nikicosier
Guest
It’s interesting… you seem to think that the reformation was something different to what it was.Ask them WHO founded their church?
They have to face reality and truth, their church was founded by a man. Martin Luther, 1500 years after Jesus.
Ask them also, where is Peter in their church?
SOrry, but no cigar.
The true Church the only Church that can show the vicar of Christ on this earth and which was founded by Jesus is the Catholic Church.
The only one that has not quibbled and waivered on the deposit of faith as handed down by the Apostles.
The Ortodox Church is also a Church with true Apostolic succession and real Sacraments but don’t have Peter.
Peace
The reformation was a portion of the Catholic Church who disagreed with what the Church was teaching. The belief was that much of what the Chruch was teaching was not of God but of man… as in men perverting God’s truth for their own ends. There are many many excellent examples of this happening in our church history (of which the protestant and lutheran church both share with the catholic church). So thus the reformers decided to break away from the church … seemed to suit both parties (both the Church & reformers) and follow what they believed to be ‘the truth’.
As for ‘where is peter in the church’… that’s a whole other argument again!
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Flash46196
Guest
Well I saw some people saying that the Catholic chruch is the true church that never wavered. . .
First I would ask, “then why; Why did Martin Luther break off from the Catholic Church.”
Then I would ask " well wait; who was Martin Luther."
Then I might even ask, “was he the only one?”
Lets take a look,
Martin Luther was a German monk, a Catholic priest, and a professor of theology.
He is also considered by some historians to be the first one to translate the bible to a language people could actually read. And he encouraged people that they could/should read and understand it themselves. So for freeing this info to the people from the church, you kinda gotta give him props for that. btw, it you were caught by the church with a german bible, you could face a punishment of death.
So context of the time . . .He lived in a time when the catholic church was it, it had filled the vacuum of government and education and everything after the Roman empire fell. The church ran everything. Frankly it was only the church keeping it together for all of europe and kept it from sliding too far down. But it became like a govt. And it became like all govts. corruption, bureaucracy, people in it for the wrong reasons, huge land owned, rich but wanting more. ect… The church had real problems, everyone knew it, including the church and in the 1400’s there were several reformer popes.
He had some issues with the Catholic Church. Notable, how it was financing its operations through the selling of indulgences. He actually had 95 theses (issues) that he historically nailed to the door of a church, (although this may not have actually happened)
you can read those 95 problems he had with the Catholic Church here:
spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm
About indulgences he says:
and he goes on and on…
So I dont know, I mean he certainly believed that the catholic church was not adhering to the truth. And I guess you guys would have to then research the selling of indulgences both then, and today (following the popes tweets from world youth day earns time off)
theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/07/what-the-pope-really-meant-in-his-twitter-indulgences-announcement/277909/
*(no I dont consider the above link scholarly research, just anecdotal and kinda funny that people are still talking about this today) *
And then when wondering why Luther? finding out that this was a time of great unrest and there were several people who did the same thing as Luther, but they were all killed by the catholic church (like another priest, John Huss from CZ, or Siviana Rolla from Italy) . Luther had powerful friends, so he was not.
I personally have no horse in the race, so I just think its all very very interesting. And know that a lot … lot of people died because of this very topic.
First I would ask, “then why; Why did Martin Luther break off from the Catholic Church.”
Then I would ask " well wait; who was Martin Luther."
Then I might even ask, “was he the only one?”
Lets take a look,
Martin Luther was a German monk, a Catholic priest, and a professor of theology.
He is also considered by some historians to be the first one to translate the bible to a language people could actually read. And he encouraged people that they could/should read and understand it themselves. So for freeing this info to the people from the church, you kinda gotta give him props for that. btw, it you were caught by the church with a german bible, you could face a punishment of death.
So context of the time . . .He lived in a time when the catholic church was it, it had filled the vacuum of government and education and everything after the Roman empire fell. The church ran everything. Frankly it was only the church keeping it together for all of europe and kept it from sliding too far down. But it became like a govt. And it became like all govts. corruption, bureaucracy, people in it for the wrong reasons, huge land owned, rich but wanting more. ect… The church had real problems, everyone knew it, including the church and in the 1400’s there were several reformer popes.
He had some issues with the Catholic Church. Notable, how it was financing its operations through the selling of indulgences. He actually had 95 theses (issues) that he historically nailed to the door of a church, (although this may not have actually happened)
you can read those 95 problems he had with the Catholic Church here:
spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm
About indulgences he says:
- Hence those who preach indulgences are in error when they say that a man is absolved and saved from every penalty by the pope’s indulgences.
- Indeed, he cannot remit to souls in purgatory any penalty which canon law declares should be suffered in the present life.
and he goes on and on…
So I dont know, I mean he certainly believed that the catholic church was not adhering to the truth. And I guess you guys would have to then research the selling of indulgences both then, and today (following the popes tweets from world youth day earns time off)
theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/07/what-the-pope-really-meant-in-his-twitter-indulgences-announcement/277909/
*(no I dont consider the above link scholarly research, just anecdotal and kinda funny that people are still talking about this today) *
And then when wondering why Luther? finding out that this was a time of great unrest and there were several people who did the same thing as Luther, but they were all killed by the catholic church (like another priest, John Huss from CZ, or Siviana Rolla from Italy) . Luther had powerful friends, so he was not.
I personally have no horse in the race, so I just think its all very very interesting. And know that a lot … lot of people died because of this very topic.
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Nikicosier
Guest
AMEN!As a non-Catholic/Lutheran Christian (raised in the Church of Christ), I believe that the “True and/or Only Church” is comprised of ALL who believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior, thus WE ARE ALL CHRISTIANS. The Church is the people. We are The Church. Isn’t that what Jesus taught us?
It is sad to me that people of faith are fighting over who is “really” following God’s commandments to us. The words of the Bible are the Truth, period. The words Jesus spoke to us are the Truth and the Light, period. There are certainly those who have perverted the words in the Bible to “mean” one thing or another, depending upon their own interpretation, thus creating their own version of “The Church.”
Thus, we now have so many different denominations which declare knowing the True faith and understanding of the Bible, people who are not born and baptised into a certain Christian denomination and are seeking the Truth, have a very difficult time choosing which one is “right” or “wrong.”
When asked what religion I follow, I simply state that I am a Christian ~ final answer! Isn’t it the duty of all of us to spread the Good News that Jesus in the one and only Messiah, and that He came here to offer everyone forgiveness for their sins as long as they believe in Him? When Jesus returns, isn’t He going to reign over all people for 1000 years?
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