Lutheranism is the "pure" Church?

[MoreCoffee]

It’s interesting… you seem to think that the reformation was something different to what it was.

The reformation was a portion of the Catholic Church who disagreed with what the Church was teaching.

Well, isn’t that exactly what “who started your church” is asking. Obviously if a “portion” of the Catholic Church broke away to create a new church then it is no longer a portion of the Catholic Church. And since it broke away in the early 16th century it had a founder who was alive and active in the creation of that new religion in the early 16th century. In this case, the case of Lutheranism, the founder was Martin Luther. I think that your interlocutor got it right.

The belief was that much of what the Church was teaching was not of God but of man… as in men perverting God’s truth for their own ends.

The Catholic Church is always reforming herself, always combating wickedness both within and without her confines and always reforming her laws and practises to make them less capable of abuse and more proof against error. However, breaking away from the Church does not reform her it merely creates a new religion with new doctrines and practises, or in some cases, it separates into parts that ought to have remained one. But in the case of Martin Luther the separation was doctrinal and practical and political and a host of other things including economic. This is not to say that the Catholic Church of that time was free from abuses and errors in her midst, such things existed and needed reformation and such reform came with the calling of a council in the 16th century and subsequent councils called in later centuries addressed other issues as they arose and showed themselves to be corruptions.

Jesus called the body of his disciples a vine and his Father the tender of the vine. He pointed out that the Father tends the vine carefully, cutting away branches that bear no fruit. Such is the case in the church, God tends his church and removes those branches that bear no fruit. The fruit is, of course, the good fruit of righteousness and of the Spirit. Martin Luther’s doctrinal divergences led to the branch he founded being cut away from the Catholic Church. God willing, some good will come of it and those who once were cut away will return for the mutual benefit of all.

There are many many excellent examples of this happening in our church history (of which the protestant and lutheran church both share with the catholic church). So thus the reformers decided to break away from the church … seemed to suit both parties (both the Church & reformers) and follow what they believed to be ‘the truth’.

As for ‘where is peter in the church’… that’s a whole other argument again!

Saint Peter’s role is always to strengthen the brethren. The brethren’s role is always to help Peter. It is simple I think.

 

[Erich]

It also says that we are joined to the Church through our baptism, too. And I completely agree that grace and mercy belong to those who have faith that works through love.

(Adapted from How Do We Know It’s the True Church.)

The Church is made up of all people everywhere who trust in Christ. However, this characteristic alone is not satisfactory because human beings locked in the visible plane of reality also demand that the Church be visible. Even those who believe only in the invisible church belong to a particular church which they attend every Sunday. Those who believe only in the invisible church must conclude that the church they go to doesn’t really matter.

The Catholic system of authority recognizes both the invisible dimension of the Church and the visible. The Church is greater than what we can observe, but the church we observe is also greater than we think. The invisible Church subsists in the Catholic Church, and while you may not be able to identify the extent of the invisible Church, you can with certainty point to the Catholic Church and say, “There is the Body of Christ.”

Jesus instructed his disciples what to do if someone sins against them:
Matthew 18:15-17:

Go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

But, “Which church?” If Christians have a sincere disagreement, who decides? Evangelical Protestants say the Bible decides, but this begs the question when the two warring parties agree that the Bible is the final authority. They eventually split because they can’t agree about what the Bible actually teaches. … Anglicans believe that authority rests in Scripture, tradition, and reason, but “Whose reason and whose tradition?”

In the debate over women’s ordination (and now in the debate over homosexuality), both sides argued from Scripture, tradition, and reason. Both sides argued from practicality, compassion and justice. Both sides honestly considered their arguments to be persuasive. Furthermore, both sides were composed of prayerful, church-going, sincere Christians who genuinely believed the Holy Spirit was directing them. How could both be right?

And so it is with the question of whether or not Lutheranism is the “pure” Church.

 

[benjohnson]

And so it is with the question of whether or not Lutheranism is the “pure” Church.

And oddly enough, from a Lutheran standpoint the purity of our physical church is never in question: We’re a hot mess of sin and problems.

However, we do say that Gospel is proclaimed and the Sacraments are administered. Being from God, they are pure.

 

[aidanbradypop]

And oddly enough, from a Lutheran standpoint the purity of our physical church is never in question: We’re a hot mess of sin and problems.

However, we do say that Gospel is proclaimed and the Sacraments are administered. Being from God, they are pure.

Let’s be honest, every faith and denomination believes they are the true faith and church. However, every LCMS individual I know in my area believes they are the true and “pure” Catholic Church the way Christ intended it to be. Mr. Luther gained insight and was guided by the Holy Spirit to correct the Catholic Church. I hope that is merely a regional claim and not LCMS worldwide.

 

[benjohnson]

Let’s be honest, every faith and denomination believes they are the true faith and church. However, every LCMS individual I know in my area believes they are the true and “pure” Catholic Church the way Christ intended it to be. Mr. Luther gained insight and was guided by the Holy Spirit to correct the Catholic Church. I hope that is merely a regional claim and not LCMS worldwide.

I think Lutherans have a slight difference on how they view the ‘church’ - in that we sharply separate the mass of repentant sinners that make up the church, from the pure ideal of Body of Christ.

That can make us say weird things: "Were the OHCAC!!!1! You’re not! And our district president sucks and is a horrible rotten person and probably isn’t even a Christian. "

It also pays dividends though. When the church breaks our hearts, it doesn’t tend to lead to a that crisis of disbelief that I’ve seen here in the Puget Sound with some of my Catholic friends. Lutherans fall away form the faith, but from what I can see it’s not usually because the church doesn’t fit the ideal.

I wish I could find the perfectly pure church here on earth - in thought, heart, and deed. Perhaps, this is a way God gives us free will in that any evidence of that pure church requires faith to accept.

 

[gregisam]

Jon,
Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist?

Yes, every Eucharist is a miracle. We have scientific proved miracles, that the poster was talking about though… Where the bread, has turned to flesh and bleed.
Kim

 

[JonNC]

Jon,
Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist?

Yes, every Eucharist is a miracle. We have scientific proved miracles, that the poster was talking about though… Where the bread, has turned to flesh and bleed.
Kim

Yes, I do believe Christ is truly present. As for Eucharistic Miracles of the type you mention, if they help those who do not believe, or whose faith is wavering, then I say Amen.

Jon

 

[Vicki_Leigh]

I was LCMS for a couple of years. My church in Texas was anti-Catholic. People seemed to look for reasons to make anti-Catholic remarks. It was strange for me. I had spent most of my life as a Presbyterian, where there was never any mention of the Catholic Church. LCMS seemed to me to be much closer to Catholicism. So, it seemed that it was a case of familiarity breeding contempt. I found it puzzling.

 

[JonNC]

I was LCMS for a couple of years. My church in Texas was anti-Catholic. People seemed to look for reasons to make anti-Catholic remarks. It was strange for me. I had spent most of my life as a Presbyterian, where there was never any mention of the Catholic Church. LCMS seemed to me to be much closer to Catholicism. So, it seemed that it was a case of familiarity breeding contempt. I found it puzzling.

It is puzzling to me, too. As we watch the liberal shifting of mainline Protestantism, we in the LCMS may find few friends outside the traditional orthodox Churches.

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

It is puzzling to me, too. As we watch the liberal shifting of mainline Protestantism, we in the LCMS may find few friends outside the traditional orthodox Churches.

Jon

Jon I though this was only in my area but it seems it is throughout the country. So is this a common belief within LCMS that you do not agree with it? I spoke with a convert from Boston the other day. She stated that she was LCMS and married a Catholic guy. Her LCMS congregation pretty much disowned her without actually saying as much. I just get the feeling there is more anti Catholicism in the LCMS than you are aware of or maybe willing to admit.

I have ran across anti Lutheran Catholics as well so it seems that the anti train of thought does not pick a side of the Tiber.

 

[andrewstx]

As a non-Catholic/Lutheran Christian (raised in the Church of Christ), I believe that the “True and/or Only Church” is comprised of ALL who believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior, thus WE ARE ALL CHRISTIANS. The Church is the people. We are The Church. Isn’t that what Jesus taught us?

It is sad to me that people of faith are fighting over who is “really” following God’s commandments to us. The words of the Bible are the Truth, period. The words Jesus spoke to us are the Truth and the Light, period. There are certainly those who have perverted the words in the Bible to “mean” one thing or another, depending upon their own interpretation, thus creating their own version of “The Church.”

Thus, we now have so many different denominations which declare knowing the True faith and understanding of the Bible, people who are not born and baptised into a certain Christian denomination and are seeking the Truth, have a very difficult time choosing which one is “right” or “wrong.”

When asked what religion I follow, I simply state that I am a Christian ~ final answer! Isn’t it the duty of all of us to spread the Good News that Jesus in the one and only Messiah, and that He came here to offer everyone forgiveness for their sins as long as they believe in Him? When Jesus returns, isn’t He going to reign over all people for 1000 years?

Just because yourselves to be the only Christians does no make it true.
I too was raised in the ‘churches of Christ’ and was dunked by them. But the real Church of Christ was begun in about the year 33 CE. The Protestant Denomination that took the name ‘churches of Christ’ was born in about 1906 when they split from the Disciples of Christ.

I am very aware that churches of Christ people think they are the only Christians and everyone else not in that demonination (yes they are just one Fundamental Protestant denomination of thousands) will go to hell.

That logically means that everyone born before 1906 is in hell. Sorry but I don’t believe in that nonexistent “god”.

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

I have had Lutherans at my door in Dublin, Ireland, and they told me they were the original Catholics, I just looked at them as if they were mad, and then said if that was the case why were they calling themselves Lutherans, and should be calling themselves Catholics, as they were living a lie , I then asked them if they were Lutherans and not mock Catholics why were they only around 500 years and not 2000 years as the Catholic Church was, and why did Luther run away with a nun was it that he had a sex problem and would not admit it and be man enough to admit to his Superior that a single consecrated life was not for him and he wanted to leave and get married, in other words man up and come clean, he tried it and celibate life was not for him, it happens to all of us in life we try something and does not work out and we leave, But we don’t start telling lies, and writing things and posting them to the Monastery Gate, not a very charitable thing to do anyway to a Community that fed, clothed and looked after him. What did St Paul say it is better not to burn and get married, if celibate life is not for you.

If he had disagreements he should have tried talking to a priest, after all Luther knew that the only religion at that time was the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church of which the Roman Catholic Church was the main Church around the world

How would a Lutheran to day like one of its members exactly what Luther did walking out in a huff and putting a long note on the Church Gates listing all the faults of its members, and all the things that they thought the Lutheran Church was doing wrong in exacting detail so every person walking past that gate could read all the faults of its members and all the faults of the teachings of the Lutheran Church. , would he popular and then to add insult to injury he then goes and sets up another Church according to what he thinks is right and says this is the proper Church. I personally think they would not be happy campers.

The Lutherans of to day would want to go back to the Church Fathers and see what they practised and what they believed and see how it squares up to what they practise to day, and this is what I told my visitors.

Catholicism is Christianity at its fullest expression.
Catholicism is pre denominational , We are the originals.

Paul states in Galatians I:8,9

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than the one that we preached to you let that one be accursed… As we have said before and now I say again if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed.

 

[steido01]

And the cartoons continue…

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

Long live the Holy Father - Pope Francis - successor of St. Peter.

 

[aidanbradypop]

And the cartoons continue…

How so?

 

[steido01]

How so?

Dustin, you are one of the most charitable posters I have encountered on these boards. You share your steadfast Roman Catholic beliefs and point out where we disagree without putting others down. I wish all posters could follow your lead. You do not demean or contribute to divisive rhetoric.

On the flip side, what can we non-Roman Catholics say to posts like this:

if they were Lutherans and not mock Catholics why were they only around 500 years and not 2000 years as the Catholic Church was, and why did Luther run away with a nun was it that he had a sex problem and would not admit it and be man enough to admit to his Superior that a single consecrated life was not for him and he wanted to leave and get married, in other words man up and come clean, he tried it and celibate life was not for him, it happens to all of us in life we try something and does not work out and we leave, But we don’t start telling lies, and writing things and posting them to the Monastery Gate, not a very charitable thing to do anyway to a Community that fed, clothed and looked after him. What did St Paul say it is better not to burn and get married, if celibate life is not for you.

Promoting this sort of cartoonish caricature does nothing to further Christian unity - or factual history, for that matter. Pretending that Lutherans entirely ignore the ECFs is insult enough, but “Luther had a sex problem?” Seriously? That’s as blatantly stupid as “Catholics worship the Pope and Mary!”

 

[GKC]

Dustin, you are one of the most charitable posters I have encountered on these boards. You share your steadfast Roman Catholic beliefs and point out where we disagree without putting others down. I wish all posters could follow your lead. You do not demean or contribute to divisive rhetoric.

On the flip side, what can we non-Roman Catholics say to posts like this:

Promoting this sort of cartoonish caricature does nothing to further Christian unity - or factual history, for that matter. Pretending that Lutherans entirely ignore the ECFs is insult enough, but “Luther had a sex problem?” Seriously? That’s as blatantly stupid as “Catholics worship the Pope and Mary!”

Monastery gate?

GKC

 

[aidanbradypop]

Dustin, you are one of the most charitable posters I have encountered on these boards. You share your steadfast Roman Catholic beliefs and point out where we disagree without putting others down.I wish all posters could follow your lead. You do not demean or contribute to divisive rhetoric.

On the flip side, what can we non-Roman Catholics say to posts like this:

Promoting this sort of cartoonish caricature does nothing to further Christian unity - or factual history, for that matter. Pretending that Lutherans entirely ignore the ECFs is insult enough, but “Luther had a sex problem?” Seriously? That’s as blatantly stupid as “Catholics worship the Pope and Mary!”

Thank you Don! I have to work at being charitable some days more than others lol.

Ten years ago I would have already been banned, but thanks to the diaconate formation and Anthropology, I have learned that I may be the only Catholic anyone will ever encounter. I should express love rather than hostility lol

 

[aidanbradypop]

Monastery gate?

GKC

I am guessing where the paper was nailed?

 

[benjohnson]

Monastery gate?

GKC

Well, at least it’s consistent - the author did say that Luther has some sexual issues.