Luther's Bondage of the Will - a Question

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This was originally in another thread that it really did not apply to so I’m posting it here. (I did attempt a search on this topic but came up with nothing)

From Luther’s Bondage of the Will:
"But again, on the other hand, when God works in us, the will, being changed and sweetly breathed on by the Spirit of God, desires and acts, not from compulsion, but responsively, from pure willingness, inclination, and accord; so that it cannot be turned another way by any thing contrary, nor be compelled or overcome even by the gates of hell; but it still goes on to desire, crave after, and love that which is good; even as before, it desired, craved after, and loved that which was evil. This, again, experience proves. How invincible and unshaken are holy men, when, by violence and other oppressions, they are only compelled and irritated the more to crave after good! Even as fire, is rather fanned into flames than extinguished, by the wind. So that neither is there here any willingness, or “Free-will,” to turn itself into another direction, or to desire any thing else, while the influence of the Spirit and grace of God remain in the man.

In a word, if we be under the god of this world, without the operation and Spirit of God, we are led captives by him at his will, as Paul saith. (2 Tim. ii. 26.) So that, we cannot will any thing but that which he wills. For he is that “strong man armed,” who so keepeth his palace, that those whom he holds captive are kept in peace, that they might not cause any motion or feeling against him; otherwise, the kingdom of Satan, being divided against itself, could not stand; whereas, Christ affirms it does stand. And all this we do willingly and desiringly, according to the nature of will: for if it were forced, it would be no longer will. For compulsion is (so to speak) unwillingness. But if the “stronger than he” come and overcome him, and take us as His spoils, then, through the Spirit, we are His servants and captives (which is the royal liberty) that we may desire and do, willingly, what He wills.

Thus the human will is, as it were, a beast between the two. If God sit thereon, it wills and goes where God will: as the Psalm saith, “I am become as it were a beast before thee, and I am continually with thee.” (Ps. lxxiii. 22-23.) If Satan sit thereon, it wills and goes as Satan will. Nor is it in the power of its own will to choose, to which rider it will run, nor which it will seek; but the riders themselves contend, which shall have and hold it. "

Anyone want to help decipher Luther’s meaning here? I know he denies free will and talks of God moving the will which I think is very Augustinian, but what about the last part - I have no say so in who controls me and thus I have no part in my salvation. Is that correct?
 
Wow, Luther sounds a lot more like Calvin here than I would have expected. Apparently he thought we were mere thralls or pawns in the struggle between God and the devil. On the other hand, I do know that Luther changed him mind pretty frequently, so maybe this isn’t what he “really” believed…
 
yes I agree this appears to be very Calvinistic. Personally, I detest “The Bondage of the Will.” His sarcasm and mockery of Erasmus is juvenile and dull. And the whole denial of free will is a dead end, both for Protestantism and for faith.

As for Luther’s capriciousness, it only diminishes him further in my eyes. To tell you the truth, I am disliking him the more I read of him. Strange thing.
 
The meaning of God riding on the human will is the Spirit of God persuading that Christ is most excellent to us and we are compelled to buy food and milk without price. God graciously comes to us when we are dead in trespasses in sins and removes the heart of stone and takes off the scales that were on our eyes. The Holy Spirit changes our mind’s disposition and stance towards what the Scriptures declare about Christ for we are enemies of God and are rebels against his law when we are unregenerate. We are of our father the devil who was a murderer from the beginning and we are taken captive to do his will. But God comes to us in our sin and shows our wickedness that we have followed Satan and allows us to respond in faith to the message given.
 
Still seems Calvinistic. I dont have a choice so why should I even worry or think about salvation? It’s not me who’s in control so I’ll just wait till God changes my disposition. About right?
 
Still seems Calvinistic. I dont have a choice so why should I even worry or think about salvation? It’s not me who’s in control so I’ll just wait till God changes my disposition. About right?
That is not Calvinistic, since God ordains the ends and the means. God does not save you apart from faith in Chirst. You should worry about salvation because you have offended God by your sins and the only means of escape is what Chist has done. The attitude of just waiting for God to change your mind denies that God has provided the means by which one comes to faith in Chirst, since the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith that we proclaim.
 
That is not Calvinistic, since God ordains the ends and the means. God does not save you apart from faith in Chirst. You should worry about salvation because you have offended God by your sins and the only means of escape is what Chist has done. The attitude of just waiting for God to change your mind denies that God has provided the means by which one comes to faith in Chirst, since the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith that we proclaim.
Okay, so God has provided the means with is Christ? What do I do with the means? According to Luther, I can’t do anything. I’m being ridden, remember? Who controls my will and therefore my desire for salvation is not up to me. After all, you can only say Christ is Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit. And if the Holy Spirit is a gift from God, I have no control over whether or not I say “Christ is Lord.” So why evangelize? People will believe in accordance with the faith apportioned to them and how they respond, i.e. the disposition of their will is solely within the control of God or Satan, depending on how the cosmic lotto went down at the dawn of creation.
 
Okay, so God has provided the means with is Christ? What do I do with the means? According to Luther, I can’t do anything. I’m being ridden, remember? Who controls my will and therefore my desire for salvation is not up to me. After all, you can only say Christ is Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit. And if the Holy Spirit is a gift from God, I have no control over whether or not I say “Christ is Lord.” So why evangelize? People will believe in accordance with the faith apportioned to them and how they respond, i.e. the disposition of their will is solely within the control of God or Satan, depending on how the cosmic lotto went down at the dawn of creation.
Well Chist is the means by which the grounds of justification can be made on. The reason you are unable to come to Chist is that you love your sin and self more than God. You are making the choice to follow Satan by means of desiring his will. You are not a neutral will that can desire the oppisite of what you want if you so will. Is not that you have no control such as a pencil that has no will, it is that your desire either follows Satan or God.

The reason we evangelize is that it is commanded in Scripture. We know that God will change the hearts of men by means of his Word and his Spirit. God uses us as is instruments in bring the good news to the elect. Satan is basicly God’s devil, since the evil one cannot act unless God allows it.
 
Well Chist is the means by which the grounds of justification can be made on. The reason you are unable to come to Chist is that you love your sin and self more than God. You are making the choice to follow Satan by means of desiring his will. You are not a neutral will that can desire the oppisite of what you want if you so will. Is not that you have no control such as a pencil that has no will, it is that your desire either follows Satan or God.
So you disagree with Luther then? So do I.
 
So you disagree with Luther then? So do I.
I don’t disagree with Luther. I believe the Bible disproves free-will just as Luther believes the Bible disproves free-will. God executes his will necessarily and immutably, so that man is not autonomus and cannot will apart from what God has decreed. When God had decreed the salvation of the elect, he was not uncertain as to what would have happened. Luther did not teach that you have no will and are like a rock that just sits there. Remember you either do the desires of the devil or God.
 
Which ever I do, its my call, not God’s. He allows me that freedom.
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

If God does not draw you to Jesus, then you cannot come to Jesus. If God does draw you to Jesus, then you will be rasied up on the last day unto the resurrection of life. It is God’s choice if you come to faith in Christ, since the natural man would always chose the devil and his sin because he loves those things more than Jesus the one sent by the Father.
 
This was originally in another thread that it really did not apply to so I’m posting it here. (I did attempt a search on this topic but came up with nothing)

From Luther’s Bondage of the Will:
"But again, on the other hand, when God works in us, the will, being changed and sweetly breathed on by the Spirit of God, desires and acts, not from compulsion, but responsively, from pure willingness, inclination, and accord; so that it cannot be turned another way by any thing contrary, nor be compelled or overcome even by the gates of hell; but it still goes on to desire, crave after, and love that which is good; even as before, it desired, craved after, and loved that which was evil. This, again, experience proves. How invincible and unshaken are holy men, when, by violence and other oppressions, they are only compelled and irritated the more to crave after good! Even as fire, is rather fanned into flames than extinguished, by the wind. So that neither is there here any willingness, or “Free-will,” to turn itself into another direction, or to desire any thing else, while the influence of the Spirit and grace of God remain in the man.

In a word, if we be under the god of this world, without the operation and Spirit of God, we are led captives by him at his will, as Paul saith. (2 Tim. ii. 26.) So that, we cannot will any thing but that which he wills. For he is that “strong man armed,” who so keepeth his palace, that those whom he holds captive are kept in peace, that they might not cause any motion or feeling against him; otherwise, the kingdom of Satan, being divided against itself, could not stand; whereas, Christ affirms it does stand. And all this we do willingly and desiringly, according to the nature of will: for if it were forced, it would be no longer will. For compulsion is (so to speak) unwillingness. But if the “stronger than he” come and overcome him, and take us as His spoils, then, through the Spirit, we are His servants and captives (which is the royal liberty) that we may desire and do, willingly, what He wills.

Thus the human will is, as it were, a beast between the two. If God sit thereon, it wills and goes where God will: as the Psalm saith, “I am become as it were a beast before thee, and I am continually with thee.” (Ps. lxxiii. 22-23.) If Satan sit thereon, it wills and goes as Satan will. Nor is it in the power of its own will to choose, to which rider it will run, nor which it will seek; but the riders themselves contend, which shall have and hold it. "

Anyone want to help decipher Luther’s meaning here? I know he denies free will and talks of God moving the will which I think is very Augustinian, but what about the last part - I have no say so in who controls me and thus I have no part in my salvation. Is that correct?

Does the last section present​

  • Luther’s own position - or
  • his conclusions from the logic of the position put forward by Erasmus ?
 
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

If God does not draw you to Jesus, then you cannot come to Jesus. If God does draw you to Jesus, then you will be rasied up on the last day unto the resurrection of life. It is God’s choice if you come to faith in Christ, since the natural man would always chose the devil and his sin because he loves those things more than Jesus the one sent by the Father.
Jumping to an illogical conclusion. You state that just because God draws you then you automatically go to Christ. This is not reading clearly what is actually said in the verse. God draws us, yes, BUT, we have to accept that call and make the free will choice of responding to it. If you respond to the call and come to Christ and remain in Him, THEN you will be raised up on the last day etc.
 
Jumping to an illogical conclusion. You state that just because God draws you then you automatically go to Christ. This is not reading clearly what is actually said in the verse. God draws us, yes, BUT, we have to accept that call and make the free will choice of responding to it. If you respond to the call and come to Christ and remain in Him, THEN you will be raised up on the last day etc.
So then is it possible to be drawn to Christ by God, then reject that call by use of your free will? If so, then you can have unbelievers that are raised up on the last day, since Chirst raises from the dead those that have been drawn by the Father. If the Father does not draw you, then you will not be risen on the last day because no one comes to the Father unless he is drawn. Jesus said he raises those who have been drawn by the Father.
 
So then is it possible to be drawn to Christ by God, then reject that call by use of your free will? If so, then you can have unbelievers that are raised up on the last day, since Chirst raises from the dead those that have been drawn by the Father. If the Father does not draw you, then you will not be risen on the last day because no one comes to the Father unless he is drawn. Jesus said he raises those who have been drawn by the Father.
Yes, it is very possible to be drawn to Christ, and even accept that call, then reject Him. Being drawn to Christ by God simply means that God offers us the free gift of Grace that we need to be saved. How we respond to that Grace is out of our free will. Our making the concious choice to have faith is an act of our will as is doing the works set out for us by God.
You might re-read the verse you quoted a few times thinking very clearly on what it is saying. It says that none can be saved if not drawn by God to Christ. It does NOT say that everyone drawn to Christ by God will choose to respond to that call. We do have to respond to that call by our own God given free will.
It also does not say that everyone drawn to Christ by God will be raised up on the last day. Only those who come to Christ after having been drawn to Him, and remain in Him, will be raised up.
 
It says that none can be saved if not drawn by God to Christ. It does NOT say that everyone drawn to Christ by God will choose to respond to that call. We do have to respond to that call by our own God given free will.
It also does not say that everyone drawn to Christ by God will be raised up on the last day. Only those who come to Christ after having been drawn to Him, and remain in Him, will be raised up.
So it is possible to be drawn by the Father and not be raised up on the last day, if the person drawn rejects God’s free offer of salvation. Since a conjuction is false if at least one of the conjuncts is false, it must be true that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him and Christ will raise up that very person that is drawn by the Father on the last day. So when Jesus raises him up on the last day, would you say Jesus is refering to the man that is both drawn by the Father and responds in faith to that call? But are not those who look on the Son and believe in him are those that are drawn to the Father?
 
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

If God does not draw you to Jesus, then you cannot come to Jesus. If God does draw you to Jesus, then you will be rasied up on the last day unto the resurrection of life. It is God’s choice if you come to faith in Christ, since the natural man would always chose the devil and his sin because he loves those things more than Jesus the one sent by the Father.
I disagree if by naturally chosing the devil, you are implying that man can do nothing good without being born again…

God gives every person the grace which is necessary to enter into salvation. Each person must respond to that grace, however. In that sense, they are wholly responsible for their failure to do so…Luther held (correct me if I’m wrong) that God chooses those who He foresaw as accepting Him and graces them, yet each person is still responsible insofar as their decision to follow Him is concerned. It is a very delicate theology, and in my opinion strikes of a very pompous view of “I am saved and you are not.” Please do not take that personally, but I have known many Protestants (esp. Calvinists) who act this way…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
You are making the choice to follow Satan by means of desiring his will. You are not a neutral will that can desire the oppisite of what you want if you so will. Is not that you have no control such as a pencil that has no will, it is that your desire either follows Satan or God.
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Zero, you are contradicting Luther here as he clearly states that the will is contingent. Iti s not free inso far as the will can make a “choice”. That’s what he’s denying, is that we make any “choice”. At least, that’s how interpret this passage as well as the rest of his polemic against free will.

I like how St. Thomas Aquinas addresses the will. He contends that God does not compel the will, that we could not will anything unless God first moved the will to its universal object, which is the good. Thus although God does indeed move the will insofar as we desire good, which “good” we move towards is dictated by our reason and our will. For we have various “goods” and our will utimately decides which one takes precedence and directs us to that end.

Suppose I take drugs because they give me pleasure. While pleasure is a good I am inclined naturally to seek, ignoring the greater evil done by the drug (loss of reason, control, addictiveness, neurological damage, etc) is not poor reasoning, for I am aware of these consequences beforehand (assuming I’ve been around people on drugs, taken them before or know anything about them). It is a willful choice to seek the transitory good of pleasure over the less immediate, yet more reasonable, good of the self as exercised through temperance.

So, while God moves us to seek the good, we will which “good” to seek, loving God (good) or not (evil). Granted, when we fail to see not loving God as evil, you could argue this is a breakdown of reason. However, I believe our reason apprehends this as evil but because there are other pleasures that arise from this decision, we choose to denote them as good. This then explains guilt which stems from a failure of the will to place reason above emotion.

If I’ve mistated St. Thomas, please correct me. I’m reading his thoughts on emotion, virtue and will right now and still trying to make sense of it.
 
Erika, Thank you so much for posing this question of will. I have posted elsewhere how I returned to our Catholic faith in ‘05 after hating it and Christianity for 40 years. Miracles put right in front of my face I could not deny. My study and work in psychology and study of bhuddism I am convinced were the results of the sacraments I received as a child kept me searching for God and for an identity I could live with in peace. Until then I was tied to this world in fear. The battle between the flesh and the spirit is discussed. If we do not understand the flesh then we are controlled by the desire of the flesh.In 1996 researchers discovered specialized brain cells they named mirror neurons. They were initially discovered in primates and then in humans. Initially they were studied in relationship to movement. Now they are being studied in relationship to how they respond in potentially every activity a human being may encounter. All aspects of human relationships are responded to and imitated by these cells. Even if we do not perform actions ourselves it was discovered that areas of the brain would activate in response to observed action and would also anticipate intention for future similar events. They also discovered these mirror neurons in brain regions that play significant roles in comprehending feelings, intent and language. These neurons are influencing how the brain is going to wire itself and respond to everyone and events beginning in the womb. At the most primitive and most powerful emotional level they serve the purpose of survival and determine our response to the world before we even experience consciousness. Consequently, we are a basic mixture of responses programmed from infancy that give us our basic attachment to our parents and the expectations we face in the social system they belong to. Our internal response to our parents’ emotional and behavioral response to us determines our sense of our own ability to interact with them and the outside world. Our sense of our faith is determined by the dominant figure in our lives.
Beginning with the flesh and understanding it will determine how open we are to the Spirit. It is much more complicated and much more intensely subtle how the flesh makes us vulnerable to resistance to the truth. Any facial expression, tone of voice or body posture has a history of emotion attached to it. Our brain then forms beliefs to fit these emotions. It was only through Grace that I was opened to free will and the emotions that influenced me to hate our faith now have been transformed to love our faith and the source of our faith passionately in a way I never could have imagined. Now I have Free Will. Where there is mystery there is no mastery.
 
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