Luther's Bondage of the Will - a Question

[Joyousguard]

Zero the Hero;3085726]What is free will?

Obvious

Is it the ability to choose good or evil?

Partly

What does grace actually do if it is given to everyone and it can be rejected?

Everyone has a certain amount of grace by the very fact that they are children of God. Howeevr, the amount of grace we have depends upon the reception of the sacraments as well as a few other things.

If everybody has grace, then was does that mean?

eevryone has certain amount of grace being born as God’s children but that grace is subject to a great many things.

Is man in control of his own destiny?

Partly

God can only give grace and hope man will accept him?

God is not a passive individual in all instances

So did the Father give to Jesus all men to him or only the ones that will be saved in the end? If the former, then did Jesus fail? If the latter, then did the Father choose some people from eternity to give them eternal life?

Your theology is very piece meal. God doe snot force men to love Him but has ultimate say over mankind. However, God loves mankind so much that He not only sent His only Son but gave them freedom of will to choose or reject Him. Not all will accept Jesus on this earth. That is by no means a failure for God anticipated this. However, who is to say that God is not accepted after death or on the death bed.

 

[Alexius]

The reason he sends people to hell is because they are sinners. The reason is that Adam has rebelled in the garden, and thus his posterity is cursed along with him. It is just for God to hold people accountable to his law, and if they disobey, then they are punished. You seem to think that God has no reason to punish sinners.

When Adam sinned he chose death rather than life with God. Adam was made in true rightousness and holiness. God told him not the eat of the tree in the midst of the garden, so Adam had knowledge of his choice. All of his decendents were born in sin and go forth from the womb speaking lies. These people do not have the ability to love and obey God. If they could then man is in the same position that Adam was in the garden, and Adam did not need any grace since he was made perfect. Why would God give grace to a person who does not need it?

You seem to rely heavily on Augustine and his concept of Original Guilt. Are children conceived WITH the personal sin of Adam, so that they are under his condemnation? That is a major difference in views as is your belief in monergism.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Ronald_E]

This is too long to explain here. However, I have been in the middle of the exploration of original sin and it appears to me that a mistake has been made in the interpretation of our original parents. The dynamics of the event point to two pure innocent creations becoming self-aware through the consequences of choices made in an unknown world. This story must be interpreted from the perspective of a compassionate exploration. The questions are to begin with: 1) How could they know death if they have never experienced. Understand in terms of telling a child not to touch a hot burner. 2) How could they know sin if they do not yet know good and evil. 3) Each person is unknown to themselves. The man who is unknown to himself tells the woman who she is only by appearance. This is an extremely important clue. There is no wisdom. Wisdom can only come about by understanding good and evil. Adam is passive because he never had to suffer. Eve is exploring to discover herself because Adam’s description of her was incomplete. We all have the awareness of not being known to others. 4) This can only truly be understood in terms of Mary and knowing directly from God who she is and what her purpose is to serve God. Genesis is the beginning of our journey to a mature relationship with God. If we do not see this then our faith suffers from misinterpretation of the journey and we suffer the consequences of not understanding how much we are loved by God. This is much too long to explain here. Check out sections 397 and 398 in the catechism and then check 2478 and see what you think about 397 and 398.

 

[Alexius]

This is too long to explain here. However, I have been in the middle of the exploration of original sin and it appears to me that a mistake has been made in the interpretation of our original parents. The dynamics of the event point to two pure innocent creations becoming self-aware through the consequences of choices made in an unknown world. This story must be interpreted from the perspective of a compassionate exploration. The questions are to begin with: 1) How could they know death if they have never experienced. Understand in terms of telling a child not to touch a hot burner. 2) How could they know sin if they do not yet know good and evil. 3) Each person is unknown to themselves. The man who is unknown to himself tells the woman who she is only by appearance. This is an extremely important clue. There is no wisdom. Wisdom can only come about by understanding good and evil. Adam is passive because he never had to suffer. Eve is exploring to discover herself because Adam’s description of her was incomplete. We all have the awareness of not being known to others. 4) This can only truly be understood in terms of Mary and knowing directly from God who she is and what her purpose is to serve God. Genesis is the beginning of our journey to a mature relationship with God. If we do not see this then our faith suffers from misinterpretation of the journey and we suffer the consequences of not understanding how much we are loved by God. This is much too long to explain here. Check out sections 397 and 398 in the catechism and then check 2478 and see what you think about 397 and 398.

I think that St. Ignatius’ teaching on Adam is often forgotten. He says that Adam was an like an infant, and needed to grow in his communion with God. I paraphrase here:
“He had not yet attained the Divine likeness, being like a child”

Augustine; however, sees Adam as already in fullness and all-knowledge, which is problematic for many reasons…

 

[Ronald_E]

I totally agree with St. Ignatius, Alexius. Since I returned 3 years ago my focus has been to understand more deeply the mystery of Mary and how she is representative of all women and how she relates directly to Eve. Why was there no temptation before Eve was created? I truly believe that John Paul II was wrong when he attributed divine wisdom to Adam and Eve. He put the end of mankind’s journey to God in the beginning. Eve was the perfect gift of love to Adam from God. At that point Adam could only identify her according to his own flesh. I know how we develop a sense of identity through how we are identified by others. John Paul II was right when he said that the truth of Adam and Eve could be understood in our normal everyday events of life. To understand Adam and Eve we must understand the developing infant. If we do not understand the formation of our identity from the beginning of our development in the womb and how it relates to a safe and secure attachment to our mother and how mother’s relationship with the father is the source of her security then we will create a theology that begins with the remnants of Adam’s omission. Every rigidity of theological thought is evidence of a hardening of heart. Eve was dependent on Adam for her sense of self. He was there first. God left Adam alone to see what he would name the animals. He then brought the woman to Adam. She gets her sense of self from his response. She feels no effect from eating the fruit until Adam eats. She responds to Adam’s response immediately with a connection to his shame. At that moment they move from one flesh in innocence and naivate to one flesh in Adam’s shame and then hiding in one flesh from God with Adam’s fear.
If Adam really knew God he would not that hiding would be foolish. If Adam knew God he would know God’s love. There was no such knowledge ever stated in the story. Eve then becomes afraid of God because of Adam’s fear. One flesh applies to any feeling which is being experienced by the mate. Today one of the major attributes that predicts a healthy marriage is the ability of the woman to teach the man empathy. Adam taught Eve fear of God because he did not know God. Too much to write here.