Luther's Bondage of the Will - a Question

[Joyousguard]

That is not Calvinistic, since God ordains the ends and the means. God does not save you apart from faith in Chirst. You should worry about salvation because you have offended God by your sins and the only means of escape is what Chist has done. The attitude of just waiting for God to change your mind denies that God has provided the means by which one comes to faith in Chirst, since the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith that we proclaim.

Much of what you have said must be taken with a grain of salt.

Faith alone is incomplete, faith and works leads to salvation. (I’ll post a whole argument from another thread upon faith and works in this thread if asked to do so but I would like to stay somewhat on topic)

Sin does not offend God but rather it upsets God because it harms us. (this is very simplified because this infers that God can be changed by our actions which isn’t really true. It’s in another thread and i’ll post a link here if need be)

 

[Joyousguard]

Zero the Hero;3073665]Well Chist is the means by which the grounds of justification can be made on. The reason you are unable to come to Chist is that you love your sin and self more than God.

All men desire the good, they do not love sin but seek the good. Many times they seek a false good through blinded faculties and weak will. The only time you will ever see a person loving sin is when they have completely rejected God from their existence and have pledged to Satan, this is an extreme and most likely very rare.

You are making the choice to follow Satan by means of desiring his will.

Man desires the good and alwasy seek s the good, therefore man does not actively seek Satan who is not of the good.

You are not a neutral will that can desire the oppisite of what you want if you so will. Is not that you have no control such as a pencil that has no will, it is that your desire either follows Satan or God.

Again, humanity always seeks the good and the ultimate good is God.

The reason we evangelize is that it is commanded in Scripture. We know that God will change the hearts of men by means of his Word and his Spirit. God uses us as is instruments in bring the good news to the elect. Satan is basicly God’s devil, since the evil one cannot act unless God allows it.

God does not allow the devil to act but rather tolerates the devil to act. Huge difference of understanding here. Even the angels have freedom of choice.

 

[Joyousguard]

Zero the Hero;3074431]I don’t disagree with Luther. I believe the Bible disproves free-will just as Luther believes the Bible disproves free-will.

First, one making such a statement must cite biblical quotes. Second, all of humanity and the angels have free will. If they didn’t have freedom of choice then that would infere that Satana could grab who evere he wanted and influence them without their consent.

God executes his will necessarily and immutably, so that man is not autonomus and cannot will apart from what God has decreed.

Tell that to the souls in hell, not to mention those that have commited mass murder and genocide. Man is free to reject God.

When God had decreed the salvation of the elect, he was not uncertain as to what would have happened. Luther did not teach that you have no will and are like a rock that just sits there. Remember you either do the desires of the devil or God.

PLease cite “salvation of the elect” and explain further please:thumbsup:

 

[Joyousguard]

Zero the Hero;3074852]John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day
If God does not draw you to Jesus, then you cannot come to Jesus. If God does draw you to Jesus, then you will be rasied up on the last day unto the resurrection of life. It is God’s choice if you come to faith in Christ, since the natural man would always chose the devil and his sin because he loves those things more than Jesus the one sent by the Father.

This is a misunderstanding of this quote. You infere that God does not “draw” everyone to Him. This is not a selective process but a constantly active one. No one is going to come to believe in Christ unless God draws them first. God “drawing them” is a constant and not selective to certain people but rather all people. Christ is saying that you will not be able to come to Him as the Son God unless you come to accept that there is a God.

God always draws us to Him, but we have the freedom of will to reject Him. If we reject God, we most certainly will not accept His son.

 

[Joyousguard]

Zero the Hero;3075270]So then is it possible to be drawn to Christ by God, then reject that call by use of your free will?

Yes

If so, then you can have unbelievers that are raised up on the last day, since Chirst raises from the dead those that have been drawn by the Father.

I doubt very much there are atheists in the afterlife.

If the Father does not draw you, then you will not be risen on the last day because no one comes to the Father unless he is drawn. Jesus said he raises those who have been drawn by the Father.

All are drawn by the Father, it makes you wonder whether how merciful God might truly be. Hell may not be permenant.

 

[Joyousguard]

So it is possible to be drawn by the Father and not be raised up on the last day, if the person drawn rejects God’s free offer of salvation. Since a conjuction is false if at least one of the conjuncts is false, it must be true that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him and Christ will raise up that very person that is drawn by the Father on the last day. So when Jesus raises him up on the last day, would you say Jesus is refering to the man that is both drawn by the Father and responds in faith to that call? But are not those who look on the Son and believe in him are those that are drawn to the Father?

There might be plenty of time to be drawn to God, accept Christ and still be raised up on the last day. Believe in the mercy of God.

 

[Ronald_E]

St. Paul talked about the battle between the flesh and the spirit. He stated that he did things he did not want to do. Anger is a potentially deadly sin. The illusion of power with anger is what controls us. Luther made his choices through the illusory power of anger against authorities in the Church who had also sinned. Before Luther felt the power of anger he was open to a deep shame inherited from his relationship with his father who he was powerless against when his father would assault him with criticism. Luther’s anger then surface against authorities in the Church who were committing sins in their abuse of power. Luther’s anger then received the opening to be used as the illusion of righteous indignation. This gave him the illusion that he was being led by the spirit because he was right in some of his perceptions. It also gave him the sense of freedom from his shame because anger will influence us to think that we are free from shame because of the power that is felt when anger is expressed in a way that gives us a false sense of value and purpose. He still would have the feeling that he did not have free will because he was still controlled by the anger that was being used to split and harm the Church even though he thought he was right in his response. The relief from shame that he was trying to get through the sacraments was accomplished through sin. He was being used where he was most vulnerable–in his unresolved shame from his father and the anger or hatred that he never directly expressed to his father. This is why he never had free will. His shame and anger were being justified through the illusion of relief with rebellion and the passion for truth that would be used to support his illusory relief.

 

[Ilroy]

So it is possible to be drawn by the Father and not be raised up on the last day, if the person drawn rejects God’s free offer of salvation. Since a conjuction is false if at least one of the conjuncts is false,** it must be true that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him and Christ will raise up that very person that is drawn by the Father on the last day**. So when Jesus raises him up on the last day, would you say Jesus is refering to the man that is both drawn by the Father and responds in faith to that call? But are not those who look on the Son and believe in him are those that are drawn to the Father?

The bolded part is where you are making your erroneous assumptions. As I have clearly stated prior, and others have stated since, just because we are drawn to Christ by the Father does not necessarily mean we will respond to that call and be raised up on the last day.
God does not just pick and choose who He will call…ALL are given sufficient Grace to come to Him, but many choose to reject that Grace. This is their free will to do so.

Enough on this verse though…I can see you are starting in on circular argument with the same assumptions asserted time and again.

 

[ErikaA]

St. Paul talked about the battle between the flesh and the spirit. He stated that he did things he did not want to do. Anger is a potentially deadly sin. The illusion of power with anger is what controls us. Luther made his choices through the illusory power of anger against authorities in the Church who had also sinned. Before Luther felt the power of anger he was open to a deep shame inherited from his relationship with his father who he was powerless against when his father would assault him with criticism. Luther’s anger then surface against authorities in the Church who were committing sins in their abuse of power. Luther’s anger then received the opening to be used as the illusion of righteous indignation. This gave him the illusion that he was being led by the spirit because he was right in some of his perceptions. It also gave him the sense of freedom from his shame because anger will influence us to think that we are free from shame because of the power that is felt when anger is expressed in a way that gives us a false sense of value and purpose. He still would have the feeling that he did not have free will because he was still controlled by the anger that was being used to split and harm the Church even though he thought he was right in his response. The relief from shame that he was trying to get through the sacraments was accomplished through sin. He was being used where he was most vulnerable–in his unresolved shame from his father and the anger or hatred that he never directly expressed to his father. This is why he never had free will. His shame and anger were being justified through the illusion of relief with rebellion and the passion for truth that would be used to support his illusory relief.

I really like your psychoanalysis here and it certainly makes sense in light of Luther’s problems with his father. And it explains the almost juvenile anger he conveys in his writings. It’s why I disliked his writing from the start. I prefer the profound gentility and beauty of the Catholic mystics over the Jonathan Edwards vitriole I typically see in Protestant writers.

 

[Zero_the_Hero]

God gives every person the grace which is necessary to enter into salvation. Each person must respond to that grace, however. In that sense, they are wholly responsible for their failure to do so…

If God draws all to Jesus, they will all be raised up on the last day.
It cannot be true that someone was dragged by the Father and they will enter into judgement and be casted into the fire. Why do some people respond to God’s grace positivly and others reject it? On your position the reason because the person had more spiritual insight than his neighbor.

Luther held (correct me if I’m wrong) that God chooses those who He foresaw as accepting Him and graces them, yet each person is still responsible insofar as their decision to follow Him is concerned.

I severly doubt this since that it the Arminian view of predestination.

It is a very delicate theology, and in my opinion strikes of a very pompous view of “I am saved and you are not.” Please do not take that personally, but I have known many Protestants (esp. Calvinists) who act this way…

Synergism is actually the pompous view such that I cooperated with God’s grace and succeeded but God gave you the same grace and you failed. I was smarter or somehow better at using what God has given me. In monergism, I am only saved because of God’s free decision. I have nothing to boast in because I deserved to be cast into hell just as much as the reprobate does.

 

[Zero_the_Hero]

Zero, you are contradicting Luther here as he clearly states that the will is contingent. Iti s not free inso far as the will can make a “choice”. That’s what he’s denying, is that we make any “choice”. At least, that’s how interpret this passage as well as the rest of his polemic against free will.

If you can’t make a choice, you don’t have a will (you are an inanimate object). Luther says we have a will, so Luther agrees we make choices. Now these are indeed contingent choices, but choices nonetheless.

 

[Zero_the_Hero]

PLease cite “salvation of the elect” and explain further please:thumbsup:

I suppose citing something means giving verses for where the salvation of the elect is found in the Bible. John 10:25-30 shows that elect, which are the sheep, are the ones who follow Christ. The ones that do not believe do so because they are not the sheep, which are the reprobates. Jesus does not say you are not my sheep because you do not believe, for that puts the cart before the horse.

 

[Ilroy]

I suppose citing something means giving verses for where the salvation of the elect is found in the Bible. John 10:25-30 shows that elect, which are the sheep, are the ones who follow Christ. The ones that do not believe do so because they are not the sheep, which are the reprobates. Jesus does not say you are not my sheep because you do not believe, for that puts the cart before the horse.

No, they do so because they freely choose to reject Christ. Read also verse 24 to get a better grasp of what is going on in this passage.
24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? **If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. **
25 Jesus answered them: **I speak to you, and you believe not the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me. **:

Clearly Christ (God) is giving them what they need to accept Him. They in turn freely choose to reject Him.

 

[Ilroy]

If God draws all to Jesus, they will all be raised up on the last day.
It cannot be true that someone was dragged by the Father and they will enter into judgement and be casted into the fire. Why do some people respond to God’s grace positivly and others reject it? On your position the reason because the person had more spiritual insight than his neighbor.

God does NOT drag anyone to Christ. He gives us the necessary Grace to be saved. We then have the free will to either accept the Grace and follow Him, or reject the Grace and condemn ourselves.

Synergism is actually the pompous view such that I cooperated with God’s grace and succeeded but God gave you the same grace and you failed. I was smarter or somehow better at using what God has given me. In monergism, I am only saved because of God’s free decision. I have nothing to boast in because I deserved to be cast into hell just as much as the reprobate does.

So…God is sitting on His throne deciding hmm…this one goes to hell, that one comes to Heaven…that one to hell, this one to Heaven. This is not only false, but it is absolutely unreasonable. God cannot be all just and all merciful and just arbitrarily throw people into hell.

 

[Zero_the_Hero]

No, they do so because they freely choose to reject Christ. Read also verse 24 to get a better grasp of what is going on in this passage.
24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? **If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. **
25 Jesus answered them: **I speak to you, and you believe not the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me. **:

Clearly Christ (God) is giving them what they need to accept Him. They in turn freely choose to reject Him.

So it is possible to be of Christ’s flock that God has chosen, but freely reject the offer of salvation when it comes? So could you be a sheep and end up in hell? Or does God have no idea who are the idenity of the sheep?

 

[Zero_the_Hero]

So…God is sitting on His throne deciding hmm…this one goes to hell, that one comes to Heaven…that one to hell, this one to Heaven. This is not only false, but it is absolutely unreasonable. God cannot be all just and all merciful and just arbitrarily throw people into hell.

What ethical standard must God conform to in order to make a decision? Is there something outside of himself that he must follow? Why is unjust to condemn sinners to hell?

 

[Ilroy]

What ethical standard must God conform to in order to make a decision? Is there something outside of himself that he must follow? Why is unjust to condemn sinners to hell?

Here is what you said that I responded to:
** I am only saved because of God’s free decision.**

That tells me that you think God is sitting there throwing people in hell for no other reason than He feels like it. That is not the description of a just or merciful God.
I didn’t say it is unjust to put sinners in hell. Do you even read these posts before going off on a tangent?

 

[Ilroy]

So it is possible to be of Christ’s flock that God has chosen, but freely reject the offer of salvation when it comes? So could you be a sheep and end up in hell? Or does God have no idea who are the idenity of the sheep?

The offer of salvation is coming at us throughout our lives, it is not a one time offer. We all have the Grace necessary for our salvation offered to us. We choose it and continue to do so, or we reject it and continue to do so, we choose it and then stop doing so, or reject it and then at some later time choose it.

Yes, you could be a sheep at some point and then reject the Shephard thereby condemning yourself to hell.

God knows exactly what each and every one of us will choose as our identity.

 

[Zero_the_Hero]

Here is what you said that I responded to:
** I am only saved because of God’s free decision.**

That tells me that you think God is sitting there throwing people in hell for no other reason than He feels like it. That is not the description of a just or merciful God.
I didn’t say it is unjust to put sinners in hell. Do you even read these posts before going off on a tangent?

The reason he sends people to hell is because they are sinners. The reason is that Adam has rebelled in the garden, and thus his posterity is cursed along with him. It is just for God to hold people accountable to his law, and if they disobey, then they are punished. You seem to think that God has no reason to punish sinners.

 

[Zero_the_Hero]

God knows exactly what each and every one of us will choose as our identity.

Then God knows who will go to heaven and who will go to hell before he created the world. Now the question is why. Do you believe God looks down the time line and sees the end, and then he choses to act on that basis?