Lying and use of fake papers during war

[Catholic90]

If a cop has to lie to keep his job, then he should find another job.

It is how they often times catch the criminals, especially drug sellers and gang members! Also murderers and burglars.

Going undercover and trying to infiltrate the people who run gangs, sell drugs, and do other nefarious activities often results in the capture and conviction of the bad guys. Are you saying the cops should not do this?!? You can’t possibly be saying the US government should not infiltrate other governments with spies, are you? When cops strongly suspect someone of murder, they may tell the suspect they have found evidence, when in fact they have not yet, but the suspect confesses, thereby solving the case! Then justice can be served.

The bad guys do not play by the rules. They try to hurt and kill people! To stop them and catch them, often cops must present themselves as someone they are really not.

 

[Catholic90]

If someone asks “How are you?” and I’m having a real bad day, I always make it a point to lie and say “Just fine! How about you?” It starts the conversation out at a much better level than an immediate list of complaints.

…

Sometimes common sense is more necessary than an analysis of the rules of moral theology.

Yep, yep. I had a HORRIBLE headache the other day. I even posted about it on these boards! But when I went to school, the other teachers saw me and asked how I was doing. It was a courtesy greeting, so I said, “Great!” or “I am good. How are you?” or “Not so bad!” Now, was I “great”, “good”, or “not so bad”? NO! My head was killing me! I had a raging headache, but I did not want to burden them with that and go down the litany of ailments that were bothering me!

Common sense…why DO they call it that when it is so UNCOMMON?!?

I agree that common sense SHOULD prevail, but often does not…sadly.

 

[Bookcat]

2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."280 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."281

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned.

---

So one is not to lie. It is a sin.​

What then can one do?​

2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. the duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.282

 

[Bookcat]

2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."280 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."281

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned.

---

So one is not to lie. It is a sin.​

What then can one do?​

2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. the duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.282

 

[Bookcat]

The above being said and with our seeking to follow Christ always and live the truth and avoid lies:

Now lets say one is in the very serious event of the Nazi at the door… and one can not find those discreet words…and others lives are at stake …and one thus ends up lying. What then? Well of course one should have found the other way. But in our weakness we sin …indeed we commit venial sins daily …hence they are called at times “daily sins” for which we pray daily “forgive us our trespasses”…and certainly ones culpability will likely be even further reduced by the event of the Nazi’s with the guns at your door…so ones venial sin will be reduced to an even smaller venial sin…which God in his knowing mercy can wipe away as one glances at the Crucifix with prayer after the Nazi’s leave…

God knows that in our seeking to live the varied virtues in our lives we will have venial sins in the process…that we being “saints” …being a new creation in Christ in the state of grace…in charity …living in Christ will still have “daily sins” to pray for. He loves us and continues to purify us with his love. (Not that such is an excuse to not seek to overcome our sins more and more in our lives …nor ought we seek or plan to lie in this case …but rather seek to find the right way)

Now all this does not make it “good” to lie. Or not a sin to lie. Nor does the ends in this circumstance “justify” the means of the lie. It remains a lie. A sin. But so too does the intemperance that one exhibited that morning at breakfast with too many eggs or the little anger one expressed at ones spouse that afternoon. If one falls here too…it will be another venial sin. Another weakness. Something that ought not have happened. One ought to have found a good way.

But it is somewhat understandable that it may happen in such events of Nazi’s at the door… even to Christians. To saints.

And there is really no point in trying to argue too much about such…

 

[Sayanz]

Thanks, I like this point of the CCC 2488. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons:

1. for being silent about what ought not be known or
2. for making use of a discreet language.
3. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.

The problem is that there is another CCC point 1753: A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. *The end does not justify the means. *Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).

Lying is not mentioned among the three possible behaviors in the face of a threatening query. But only silence, discreet language and strict discretion. And lying as a means to a good end is called intrinsically disordered.

I suppose we can excuse the saints who used false papers for ignorance of these highly nuanced moral criteria. Or perhaps there is another explanation.

 

[Tietjen]

The above being said and with our seeking to follow Christ always and live the truth and avoid lies:

Now lets say one is in the very serious event of the Nazi at the door… and one can not find those discreet words…and others lives are at stake …and one thus ends up lying. What then? Well of course one should have found the other way. But in our weakness we sin …indeed we commit venial sins daily …hence they are called at times “daily sins” for which we pray daily “forgive us our trespasses”…and certainly ones culpability will likely be even further reduced by the event of the Nazi’s with the guns at your door…so ones venial sin will be reduced to an even smaller venial sin…which God in his knowing mercy can wipe away as one glances at the Crucifix with prayer after the Nazi’s leave…

God knows that in our seeking to live the varied virtues in our lives we will have venial sins in the process…that we being “saints” …being a new creation in Christ in the state of grace…in charity …living in Christ will still have “daily sins” to pray for. He loves us and continues to purify us with his love. (Not that such is an excuse to not seek to overcome our sins more and more in our lives …nor ought we seek or plan to lie in this case …but rather seek to find the right way)

Now all this does not make it “good” to lie. Or not a sin to lie. Nor does the ends in this circumstance “justify” the means of the lie. It remains a lie. A sin. But so too does the intemperance that one exhibited that morning at breakfast with too many eggs or the little anger one expressed at ones spouse that afternoon. If one falls here too…it will be another venial sin. Another weakness. Something that ought not have happened. One ought to have found a good way.

But it is somewhat understandable that it may happen in such events of Nazi’s at the door… even to Christians. To saints.

And there is really no point in trying to argue too much about such…

Please help me understand. Can you please explain the entire book of Judith and how it is she found favor with God? Also, can you explain Christ’s words & actions in John 7:2-10. Understand this… I am NOT suggesting that Christ sinned by bring these verses up. In fact, just the opposite… because lying is NOT always a sin.

Thanks.

 

[schaubj57]

Your wife asks you, “Do I look fat when I wear this?” “Am I pretty?” “Do you like my hair style?”

If you want to live in a happy marriage or simply live at all, you’ll lie through your teeth an these answers

There are times when telling a lie is perfectly acceptable. Theya re what’s called “white lies”. It’s when you lie and tell the lie to decieve someone, hurt someone or protect yourself when you mess up is when the lie crosses over into a sinful act.

 

[Tietjen]

Something cannot be intrinsically evil and be permitted in any circumstances, even with nazis or cops.

If a cop has to lie to keep his job, then he should find another job.

So are you then saying that you can’t be both “a good Catholic” (at least one that avoids sin) and an undercover officer? an intelligence officer, CIA, NSA, etc. etc??? I respectfully disagree.

How do you feel about assisting another in promoting a lie? For example, mom’s and dad’s that tell their young Children that there is a Santa Claus and then a Catholic parish that hosts a children’s Christmas party inwhich “Santa” arrives and hands out gifts. Is the parish promoting a sin and thus sinning itself?

 

[Bookcat]

Please help me understand. Can you please explain the entire book of Judith and how it is she found favor with God? Also, can you explain Christ’s words & actions in John 7:2-10. Understand this… I am NOT suggesting that Christ sinned by bring these verses up. In fact, just the opposite… because lying is NOT always a sin.

Thanks.

As to Judith (I must confess not having read it…only heard what is read at Mass…but …)

Here this may be helpful for you:

“Here it must be remembered first and foremost that biblical revelation is deeply rooted in history. God’s plan is manifested progressively and it is accomplished slowly, in successive stages and despite human resistance. God chose a people and patiently worked to guide and educate them. Revelation is suited to the cultural and moral level of distant times and thus describes facts and customs, such as cheating and trickery, and acts of violence and massacre, without explicitly denouncing the immorality of such things. This can be explained by the historical context, yet it can cause the modern reader to be taken aback, especially if he or she fails to take account of the many “dark” deeds carried out down the centuries, and also in our own day. In the Old Testament, the preaching of the prophets vigorously challenged every kind of injustice and violence, whether collective or individual, and thus became God’s way of training his people in preparation for the Gospel…”

–Pope Benedict XVI Verbum Domini

As to Jesus in John 7:2-10

I would direct you to the Navarre Bible Commentary. The Jews who lived far away went usually for the feast via caravan. Jesus did not want to go at this time with the crowd…it will give various reasons there if you read the Navarre. He did not leave with the caravan …but remained in Galilee after they left. Later went up privately. There was no lie. I will also note that the RSV mentions there a variant that other ancient authorities add the word “yet” in verse 8.

(as to lying being a sin…see the CCC quotes above…it is a sin…it is condemned in its very nature and I will note too on a side note but germaine to the thread-- that one could argue as to what constitutes a lie in a given event…and what is rather careful language or good mental reservation or other things…)

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Very good considered responses from all sides here.

Look. Except for Jesus, Mary, and possibly John the Baptist and St. Joseph,
all people commit sins of varying seriousness.

In my 51 years, it has been my experience that most people lie and lie repeatedly.
Not necessarily MALICIOUSLY always, usually not with the intent to destroy an innocent person, but people lie quite a bit. And I have, too, and I am ashamed of it,
and am trying, not always successfully, to avoid doing it anymore.

We shouldn’t lie. It is sinful to lie. It is ESPECIALLY SINFUL to lie in order to do harm
to one’s neighbor, especially if he or she has done nothing wrong.

Is it always sinful to lie or remain silent in order even to protect yourself IF,
by coming forward and admitting your misdeed, you alone would not suffer, but innocent people could be ruined? I think in such a case, lying would be venial, but still regrettable. Remaining silent in such a situation would not be sinful at all.
Because deliberately putting innocent people at great risk of harm in order
to cleanse your own conscience, is a very selfish act. As long as you have a desire to atone for your misdeed and make reparation for it, you do not have to openly admit to it to others in order to be forgiven by God, especially if that would cause terrible consequences to innocent people. Of course, you do have to confess it to the Priest.
And remember, although all wrongdoing requires some form of intentional reparation for it, you do NOT have to personally hand a stolen item to the person you took it from. You can mail it to her or him, or have someone else give it back to them for you. If you are in no position to do that, do what you can: make a gift to the poor, or help bring people to Christ by donating to a rosary-distribution drive or something, and have masses said for the salvation of those you have sinned against and for the Holy Souls, in reparation.
Remember, even the Priest CANNOT, absolutely CANNOT, require that you go and accuse yourself to others, to ANYONE outside the confessional, not EVEN as a form of penance and he cannot require it for absolution, either. Now, if GOD REQUIRED that you publicly admit to your faults, that would not be the case.

 

[vera_dicere]

I can not reveal the truth and NEVER lie.

I can remain silent.

Something cannot be intrinsically evil and be permitted in any circumstances, even with nazis or cops.

If a cop has to lie to keep his job, then he should find another job.

Man, I wish I could live in your world, it sounds awesome.

Instead, I live in a world where I sometimes have to tell porkies to protect my patients from people who ran them down with the car after punching them in the guts so they miscarry.

 

[Infiltrator]

Spot on.

we all sin, however we must try not to. That is what we are called to do. all saints have sinned. Every one of them. This is becasue the only person ever to be without sin is and was Jesus Christ. Those that have sinned must repent of it. In repentance comes forgiveness.

Very good considered responses from all sides here.

Look. Except for Jesus, Mary, and possibly John the Baptist and St. Joseph,
all people commit sins of varying seriousness.

In my 51 years, it has been my experience that most people lie and lie repeatedly.
Not necessarily MALICIOUSLY always, usually not with the intent to destroy an innocent person, but people lie quite a bit. And I have, too, and I am ashamed of it,
and am trying, not always successfully, to avoid doing it anymore.

We shouldn’t lie. It is sinful to lie. It is ESPECIALLY SINFUL to lie in order to do harm
to one’s neighbor, especially if he or she has done nothing wrong.

Is it always sinful to lie or remain silent in order even to protect yourself IF,
by coming forward and admitting your misdeed, you alone would not suffer, but innocent people could be ruined? I think in such a case, lying would be venial, but still regrettable. Remaining silent in such a situation would not be sinful at all.
Because deliberately putting innocent people at great risk of harm in order
to cleanse your own conscience, is a very selfish act. As long as you have a desire to atone for your misdeed and make reparation for it, you do not have to openly admit to it to others in order to be forgiven by God, especially if that would cause terrible consequences to innocent people. Of course, you do have to confess it to the Priest.
And remember, although all wrongdoing requires some form of intentional reparation for it, you do NOT have to personally hand a stolen item to the person you took it from. You can mail it to her or him, or have someone else give it back to them for you. If you are in no position to do that, do what you can: make a gift to the poor, or help bring people to Christ by donating to a rosary-distribution drive or something, and have masses said for the salvation of those you have sinned against and for the Holy Souls, in reparation.
Remember, even the Priest CANNOT, absolutely CANNOT, require that you go and accuse yourself to others, to ANYONE outside the confessional, not EVEN as a form of penance and he cannot require it for absolution, either. Now, if GOD REQUIRED that you publicly admit to your faults, that would not be the case.

 

[Castello]

So are you then saying that you can’t be both “a good Catholic” (at least one that avoids sin) and an undercover officer? an intelligence officer, CIA, NSA, etc. etc??? I respectfully disagree.

How do you feel about assisting another in promoting a lie? For example, mom’s and dad’s that tell their young Children that there is a Santa Claus and then a Catholic parish that hosts a children’s Christmas party inwhich “Santa” arrives and hands out gifts. Is the parish promoting a sin and thus sinning itself?

I have met very very few people who lie to children about Santa, they are people who have very little moral compass. All of the Christian people I know teach children that Santa is as real as Mickey Mouse or Buzz Lightyear. Sure, dress up as Santa and have fun but to actually tell children that a cartoon is real

 

[Castello]

Man, I wish I could live in your world, it sounds awesome.

Instead, I live in a world where I sometimes have to tell porkies to protect my patients from people who ran them down with the car after punching them in the guts so they miscarry.

Jesus told us that being a Christian is hard. It is a narrow path to heaven, we will suffer and be persecuted. I’ve never found this path to be easy.

And I remember an 80’s movie about a strip club called porkies, but, cannot imagine what that has with patients.

 

[Castello]

So are you then saying that you can’t be both “a good Catholic” (at least one that avoids sin) and an undercover officer? an intelligence officer, CIA, NSA, etc. etc??? I respectfully disagree.

Yes, there are some professions that are unfitting for Christians. If lies are required, then, a Christian could not do the job (remember, telling the truth and revealing secrets are not the same thing. That has been explained in the Catechism quotes in many many many many prior posts).

 

[Infiltrator]

Spot on. You cannot be a Catholic and knowingly lie, plan to lie and not repent of it. It is no different than being a homosexual and expecting to be able to enter into the sacrament of marriage.
You cannot be an intelligence officer and a Catholic if you put the law of the nation above Gods law.
You cannot be an undercover officer and a Catholic if you put the law of the nation above Gods law.
You cannot be a member of the CIA and a Catholic if you put the law of the nation above Gods law.
You cannot be a soldier and a Catholic if you put the law of the nation above Gods law and take a life.
You cannot be a police officer and a Catholic if you put the law of the nation above Gods law.

You can promote Santa Claus as long as you don’t lie about it. The way we treat this with our kids is to explain the truth about Santa, that he is based on
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas
and that it is the time of Jesus birth

So are you then saying that you can’t be both “a good Catholic” (at least one that avoids sin) and an undercover officer? an intelligence officer, CIA, NSA, etc. etc??? I respectfully disagree.

How do you feel about assisting another in promoting a lie? For example, mom’s and dad’s that tell their young Children that there is a Santa Claus and then a Catholic parish that hosts a children’s Christmas party inwhich “Santa” arrives and hands out gifts. Is the parish promoting a sin and thus sinning itself?

 

[Catholic90]

I have met very very few people who lie to children about Santa, they are people who have very little moral compass. All of the Christian people I know teach children that Santa is as real as Mickey Mouse or Buzz Lightyear. Sure, dress up as Santa and have fun but to actually tell children that a cartoon is real

Santa IS real. Santa is as real as love and the spirit of giving. This was explained to Virginia once many years ago.

 

[Tietjen]

I have met very very few people who lie to children about Santa, they are people who have very little moral compass. All of the Christian people I know teach children that Santa is as real as Mickey Mouse or Buzz Lightyear. Sure, dress up as Santa and have fun but to actually tell children that a cartoon is real

You can all you want but MANY very good Catholic parents pass on the stories of Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny to their little ones. For a few short years, the children believe… then as they get older, they out grow the fairy tales and either figure out the “truth” or are told the “truth” by other children or sad adults who like to crush the fantascies of the young. Either way, the “lies” that these very good Catholics tell their children are not sinful. The fact that you personally know of “very very few people…” who promote Santa, and the other imaginary characters to their children cannot possibly be accurate. I’m sure you must be mistaken since to say otherwise, on my part, might be interrupted as me calling you a liar… something I know cannot be the case.

Regardless, I respectfully disagree with your position on the matter and remained unconvenienced based on your opinion; but thanks for sharing.

 

[Tietjen]

Spot on. You cannot be a Catholic and knowingly lie, plan to lie and not repent of it. It is no different than being a homosexual and expecting to be able to enter into the sacrament of marriage.

What?! Apples & oranges here.

You cannot be an intelligence officer and a Catholic if you put the law of the nation above Gods law.

But can you be a Catholic and an Intelligence officer if you must lie in the course of your job?

You cannot be an undercover officer and a Catholic if you put the law of the nation above Gods law.

See above response.

You cannot be a member of the CIA and a Catholic if you put the law of the nation above Gods law.

See above response

You cannot be a soldier and a Catholic if you put the law of the nation above Gods law and take a life.

ALL US soldiers are trained (to varying degrees) to take life in defense of country. Am I to assume that since they are trained to take life, you are actually saying that soldiers cannot be Catholics? I ask because the U.S. has a volunteer Armed Forces and the men and women all know that they may be called upon to take a life and still they volunteer. So, in your estimation, are they then choosing “the law of the nation above Gods law” by volunteering in the first place?

You cannot be a police officer and a Catholic if you put the law of the nation above Gods law.

See the response two up. AND, if soldeirs cannot be both Catholic and willing to take a life, it seems likely that you would feel the same about a police officer… that is unless a criminal has a gun to your head.