Lying and use of fake papers during war

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sayanz
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Sayanz

Guest
Some saints have used fake papers during war.

Why is this not lying?

The CCC says this about lying:

“A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.”

To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error.

By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity.

Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision.
 
A man pounds on your door, holding a gun, demanding to know where your son is and says he is going to shoot him and kill him. He asks you if your son is home. You know where your son is. He is in his bedroom. Do you tell this man?

A homeless person approaches you and asks if you have money on you. You do. You just cashed a check and have a $100 bill. You have nothing smaller. Do you tell him you have a $100 bill?

Your wife asks you, “Do I look fat when I wear this?” “Am I pretty?” “Do you like my hair style?”
 
OP:

The Church does not state that all falsehoods are sinful. There are times I think many people would like the Church to so state, since that would make morality so very easy.

But that’s not what the Church teaches, and it’s not how life operates.

The Catechism at 2488 states that “respect” for truth is “not unconditional.” In other words, respect for the truth is “conditional.” However, 2488 does also say that we “must conform” our lives to the Gospel of love. Moreover, the Catechism also advises that people must follow their consciences.

When Jesus was asked what the most important commandment was, He didn’t say, “obey the law.” He said “Love others.” Love trumps the law. Jesus said so.

Since respect for truth is conditional - but “love others” is mandatory - it stands to reason that there are times when “respect for truth” gives way to “love others.” Catholic90’s examples are fine illustrations of those times…
 
Sayanz said:
Some saints have used fake papers during war.

Why is this not lying?
Click to expand...
No “right to know.”
Sayanz said:
The CCC says this about lying:

“A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.”

To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error.

By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity.

Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision.
Click to expand...
All true, but for one element that must be present if the “lie” is actually a sin… A RIGHT TO KNOW. Is there a moral or legal right of the person to actually know the truth on a given matter? Let’s look at the examples Catholic90 gave…
Catholic90 said:
A man pounds on your door, holding a gun, demanding to know where your son is and says he is going to shoot him and kill him. He asks you if your son is home. You know where your son is. He is in his bedroom. Do you tell this man?
Click to expand...
No, the man has no moral or leagl expectation or obligation to the truth, Therefore, the mother would not be sinning to use deceit to protect her son. Deceit and lying have been found to be honorable in Holy Scripture… please read the book of Judith.
Catholic90 said:
A homeless person approaches you and asks if you have money on you. You do. You just cashed a check and have a $100 bill. You have nothing smaller. Do you tell him you have a $100 bill?
Click to expand...
Again does the man have a moral or legal “right to know?”
Catholic90 said:
Your wife asks you, “Do I look fat when I wear this?” “Am I pretty?” “Do you like my hair style?”
Click to expand...
Lastly, in these instances it is far better to simply feign a heart attack and keep silent. 😉
 
Sayanz said:
Some saints have used fake papers during war.

Why is this not lying?

The CCC says this about lying:

“A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.”

To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error.

By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity.

Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision.
Click to expand...
There are quite a few instances where men and women of god lied to other people for the right reasons in the old testament!
 
To lie or not to lie,that is the question. Sometimes a lie is the only thing we can do in order to make things right. Also,we have the “right” to lie if we don’t want to hurt someone. So,lying is OK sometimes,but it must be used with careful handling.
 
I hate lying, and consider it beneath human and Christian dignity.

On the other hand, there are some instances wherein
to tell the TRUTH would definitely bring serious harm to other
people who are innocent and have done no wrong.
We DON’T have the right to risk another person’s safety and security,
NOT EVEN to tell the truth.

While Jesus condemns the devil as the Father of lies, let us remember what
the lies of the Devil ARE. HE lied to Adam and Eve IN ORDER TO GET THEM
TO BREAK GOD’S COMMAND and expose them to death.
He lied to Jesus, even quoting scripture, to try to get Jesus to tempt God
by risking killing himself by jumping off a high precipice.
He instigated the Sadducees and Pharisees to lie to Pilate about the alleged
“crimes” against Rome of Jesus.
Satan’s lies - and the lies he instigates - are malicious. They are intended to lead people AWAY from God. They are intended to destroy people and destroy God’s reputation.

If, by telling the truth about something, I could cause innocent friends, relatives, or whoever, to be harmed and/or suffer greatly, then I don’t have the right to tell the truth about that, whatever it is, even if it would make me “FEEL” righteous and good.
Look at the early Church, under persecution.
The wicked authorities would come to the bishop and demand that he reveal the location of the church’s holy objects and property, and the location of the parishoners,
in order to steal the holy properties and to arrest and kill the parishoners.
Did the bishop have the obligation to tell the truth and reveal these things to this
man? I say, hell no and he better NOT do that.
So THAT proves that St. Paul’s statement that magistrates are not a terror to those who do no wrong, is absolutely NOT infallibly true. They WERE, in fact, FREQUENTLY a terror to the holy Early Christians.

The Commandment, as given in the Scripture, is NOT
“Thou Shalt Never tell a Lie under ANY circumstances.”
The COMMANDMENT IS “Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR”.
In other words, you are forbidden to slander your neighbor, or to attempt to do harm to him or her by telling or writing falsehoods about the person. THAT is the actual commandment. Judith lied to Holofornes. Jael lied to Sisera. Samson, to avenge God’s name, deceived the Philistine kid. You are also forbidden to lie to your neighbor in order to rip off his livelihood (such as through Phishing, where by falsehood you obtain a person’s personal information, then access his bank account and wipe out his and his family’s life savings).
 
Read the life of King David in the Old Testament. He lied several times to protect himself and those with him, and Scripture does not condemn him for doing so.
 
Tietjen said:
No “right to know.”

All true, but for one element that must be present if the “lie” is actually a sin… A RIGHT TO KNOW. Is there a moral or legal right of the person to actually know the truth on a given matter? Let’s look at the examples Catholic90 gave…

No, the man has no moral or leagl expectation or obligation to the truth, Therefore, the mother would not be sinning to use deceit to protect her son. Deceit and lying have been found to be honorable in Holy Scripture… please read the book of Judith.

Again does the man have a moral or legal “right to know?”

Lastly, in these instances it is far better to simply feign a heart attack and keep silent. 😉
Click to expand...
:thumbsup:Exactly.
 
That whole “right to know” thing was removed from the Catechism.

It is NOT part of Catholic teaching.

A lie is always a sin. It may be mortal or venial, but, it is always a sin. No nazis or 300 lb intruders can change that.
 
I’m sorry, Castello, but I believe you are incorrect when you state, “A lie is always a sin. It may be mortal or venial, but, it is always a sin. No nazis or 300 lb intruders can change that.”

Your statement is not what the Church teaches.

The Catholic Church certainly could say, “lying is always sinful.” It does not.

As I just posted on another thread – so forgive my cut & paste – the Catechism instead states at 2488:

“The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.”

“Never, lie…EVER!” is, with all due respect, great morality for a 7-year old.

However, we live in a dark world where bad people do bad things. Are you really, REALLY saying I commit a sin when I am an undercover cop and I lie to infiltrate the criminal network? Or when I, as a spy, lie about who I am in order to steal Iran’s nuclear bomb plans? Or hide a jew from the Nazis? Or even, as a cop, lie to suspect and say I possess evidence I don’t have (note: US criminal laws routinely allow cops to lie to suspects all the time). Or lie to my own 7-year old and tell her there really is no such thing as Santa Claus?
 
VonDerTann said:
I’m sorry, Castello, but I believe you are incorrect when you state, “A lie is always a sin. It may be mortal or venial, but, it is always a sin. No nazis or 300 lb intruders can change that.”

Your statement is not what the Church teaches.

The Catholic Church certainly could say, “lying is always sinful.” It does not.

As I just posted on another thread – so forgive my cut & paste – the Catechism instead states at 2488:

“The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.”

“Never, lie…EVER!” is, with all due respect, great morality for a 7-year old.

However, we live in a dark world where bad people do bad things. Are you really, REALLY saying I commit a sin when I am an undercover cop and I lie to infiltrate the criminal network? Or when I, as a spy, lie about who I am in order to steal Iran’s nuclear bomb plans? Or hide a jew from the Nazis? Or even, as a cop, lie to suspect and say I possess evidence I don’t have (note: US criminal laws routinely allow cops to lie to suspects all the time). Or lie to my own 7-year old and tell her there really is no such thing as Santa Claus?
Click to expand...
I can not reveal the truth and NEVER lie.

I can remain silent.

Something cannot be intrinsically evil and be permitted in any circumstances, even with nazis or cops.

If a cop has to lie to keep his job, then he should find another job.
 
VonDerTann said:
I’m sorry, Castello, but I believe you are incorrect when you state, “A lie is always a sin. It may be mortal or venial, but, it is always a sin. No nazis or 300 lb intruders can change that.”

Your statement is not what the Church teaches.

The Catholic Church certainly could say, “lying is always sinful.” It does not.
Click to expand...
The quote from the CCC you quoted above is not about lying.

What does the Catechism say?

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. the deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. the culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.
There are various mental reservations or careful speech one could make …and one could ask if a particular thing is “lying” by definition. But such is different from lying.
 
As usual…just as we often debate whether lying is always sinful, someone inevitably brings up “mental reservation,” “fudging,” i.e. answering a different question, etc.

OK, so the nazis ask, “any jews here?”
  1. –And you respond, “uh…how should I know?”
  2. –Or you make a mental reservation, namely, you say, “none!” while privately thinking, “…that I will tell you about!”
As to #1, the nazis then say, “YES or NO, Dumkopf?” and level their rifles at you.

As to #2…you still deceived them. You intended to disort the truth to them.

My point is that there is no hard & fast requirement that we must reveal true information when asked this or similar questions…and, moreover, those who think we must do so need to revert to all sorts of twisted logic to explain how it’s OK to deceive, but not to lie…or to try to explain why deception is not always lying…

…When all the while the Church simply never says, “deceiving another is always a sin.” Instead, it simply says that the right to the truth is not unconditional.

I stand by the proposition that spies…or those engaged in police work…or those who lied in the nazis faces, etc. - commit/committed no sin, and, again, there simpy is no authority to the contrary.
 
VonDerTann said:
As usual…just as we often debate whether lying is always sinful, someone inevitably brings up “mental reservation,” “fudging,” i.e. answering a different question, etc.

OK, so the nazis ask, “any jews here?”
  1. –And you respond, “uh…how should I know?”
  2. –Or you make a mental reservation, namely, you say, “none!” while privately thinking, “…that I will tell you about!”
As to #1, the nazis then say, “YES or NO, Dumkopf?” and level their rifles at you.

As to #2…you still deceived them. You intended to disort the truth to them.

My point is that there is no hard & fast requirement that we must reveal true information when asked this or similar questions…and, moreover, those who think we must do so need to revert to all sorts of twisted logic to explain how it’s OK to deceive, but not to lie…or to try to explain why deception is not always lying…

…When all the while the Church simply never says, “deceiving another is always a sin.” Instead, it simply says that the right to the truth is not unconditional.

I stand by the proposition that spies…or those engaged in police work…or those who lied in the nazis faces, etc. - commit/committed no sin, and, again, there simpy is no authority to the contrary.
Click to expand...
Except the authority of the Church.

When one is faced with the Nazis, they really were not polite little guys who would take your word for it that you did not have a family of Jews in the attic. It is naive to think that. If you were suspected, they would ask, then search your house and then likely burn or shoot it up to make sure.

A Christian could have refused to answer the nazi or made a discreet answer. NO one said one has to say “yup, they are inside the sofa”.

They could have even lied, knowing it was sinful to do so but because of the fear of death perhaps have reduced culpability that would make the lie venial (or hope so, because those rude nazis would have likely killed em anyway, leaving them to face God with a lie as their final words).

It is sad that heresy has so saturated our society that we see the evil of a lie as a good thing.
 
If someone asks “How are you?” and I’m having a real bad day, I always make it a point to lie and say “Just fine! How about you?” It starts the conversation out at a much better level than an immediate list of complaints.

If I meet someone who seems a little down, I try my best to lie and say “Hey, you look great today!”

And if I had to lie to prevent someone from launching a nuclear bomb, I wouldn’t hesitate in the slightest. If I had to lie to prevent murder I wouldn’t hesitate to save a life.

Sometimes common sense is more necessary than an analysis of the rules of moral theology.

And I believe that the Vatican provided fake documents for Jews during WW II in order to save them from deportation to death camps. I’m not going to condemn the Vatican for lying.
 
Castello, what “authority of the Church” are you referring to? I’ve already given you an exact reference to the Catechism which says that the to the truth is not absolute, but that we mst conform our lives to Jesus’ message of fraternal love.

Now, you write:

“When one is faced with the Nazis, they really were not polite little guys who would take your word for it that you did not have a family of Jews in the attic. It is naive to think that. If you were suspected, they would ask, then search your house and then likely burn or shoot it up to make sure.”
–Yep, the nazis were bad and intended ill acts – hence why we can conclude that telling them falsehoods is not a sin.

“They could have even lied, knowing it was sinful to do so…”
–I see no proof adduced that it was sinful at all.

“It is sad that heresy has so saturated our society that we see the evil of a lie as a good thing.”
–I have said nothing heretical.
–I have pointed out that the Church does not say what you claim. If anyone here is at odds with the Church, it is those who claim that the Church teaches that dishonesty is always sinful.
–Lying…like so many things… IS a good thing, or is at least morally neutral – under some circumstances. Sving a life jumps to mind.

And BTW, calling those who disagree with you “heretics” just paints Catholics as sin-obsessed loons who would rather bring the nazis to the jew in the attic than utter a falsehood…but I guess the stereotype fits sometimes.
 
Bookcat said:
What does the Catechism say?

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned.
There are various mental reservations or careful speech one could make …and one could ask if a particular thing is “lying” by definition. But such is different from lying.
Click to expand...
 
2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."280 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."281

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned.

So one is not to lie. It is a sin.​

What then can one do?​

2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. the duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.282
 
2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. the duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.282
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top