Mafiosi are 'excommunicated', pope says

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I’ll believe it as soon as it is published in Acta Apostolicae Sedis. No bishop, not even the Pope, legislates or decrees by homily. He can say whatever he wants but it carries no force of law unless it is promulgated in the appropriate way.
The pope is the law giver; he may dispense, uphold or impose law at his will. Since excommunication is a canonical penalty, he most certainly can impose it whenever and however he wants. It is not necessary to go through the legal channels.
say you are having a dinner party and a federal judge is sitting next to you. He says “I find you guilty of stealing my drink!” are you going to jail? Why not?
No. Because a judge does not have that authority. His job is to ensure that a trial is conducted according to the law and that any punishment that is handed down falls within the guidelines established by the legislature. The pope may bind and loosen; not a judge.
 
But your last sentence is a good point. How do we know these Papal statements are indeed working?
When the person repents of their sins and seeks reconciliation with Christ through the Church.
 
That’s the problem is that the Pope seems to be ruling by private phone calls and off-the-cuff comments. Whereas most Popes rule by formal decree and pronouncement through the appropriate channels, you seem to be arguing that this Pope is just going to do whatever he wants, however he wants, because he has that right. That is an unfortunate way to run a Church because it leads to much confusion and disarray. I am sure that at least his security detail is nervous enough, and now his secretarial staff is wondering what to do with all of this.
 
That’s the problem is that the Pope seems to be ruling by private phone calls and off-the-cuff comments. Whereas most Popes rule by formal decree and pronouncement through the appropriate channels, you seem to be arguing that this Pope is just going to do whatever he wants, however he wants, because he has that right. That is an unfortunate way to run a Church because it leads to much confusion and disarray. I am sure that at least his security detail is nervous enough, and now his secretarial staff is wondering what to do with all of this.
I really don’t understand the confusion. It isn’t so much that the pope declares one to be excommunicated as it is a person excommunicates themselves by their willful actions. Was it necessary for Martin Luther to receive a bull of excommunication when he abandoned his order, broke his vows and his obedience to his bishop and ultimately the pope? Martin luther died outside of the Church, not because of his excommunication, but by the choices he made. Mafia members do the same. If they extort, hurt, and kill people for the sake of monetary gain, they have already placed themselves outside of the Church, whether or not it is made “official.” I think that this is what Pope Francis is speaking about.
 
As I quoted, an excommunication is automatically imposed for a number of crimes, none of which can be said to be committed by all Mafiosi. I am not sure whether you are arguing about this or a ferendae sententiae penalty without proper trial. The latter situation is the only one possible, because it is not possible to excommunicate oneself by, for example, committing murder, rape, or all sorts of heinous acts.

It is possible to place oneself outside of the Church without incurring an excommunication. The question is whether the ecclesiastical penalty of excommunication has been duly imposed and I contend that it is not, until we see it in AAS.
 
It is possible to place oneself outside of the Church without incurring an excommunication. The question is whether the ecclesiastical penalty of excommunication has been duly imposed and I contend that it is not, until we see it in AAS.
All I can do is repeat what Brother JR has repeatedly said about the subject (and he is a theologian); the pope can excommunicate you if he doesn’t like the color of your toothbrush and it is just as legal and valid as any other excommunication.
 
A person who is excommunicated is still obligated to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days. They may not participate in the sacraments, though.
Really?!:eek: I didn’t know that. So the priests use their judgment if they know someone is mafia and joins the communion line?
 
Really?!:eek: I didn’t know that. So the priests use their judgment if they know someone is mafia and joins the communion line?
I think that a priest, unless he is certain of a persons excommunication, would distribute communion to anyone who presents themselves. After all, the person next to the Mafioso could be the biggest sinner this side of the Tiber.
 
All I can do is repeat what Brother JR has repeatedly said about the subject (and he is a theologian); the pope can excommunicate you if he doesn’t like the color of your toothbrush and it is just as legal and valid as any other excommunication.
From an off-the-cuff remark in a homily? Brother JR said this can be done?

I’m not debating the reasons with you. I’m debating the method and the nature of the penalty. I’m sure if the Pope decrees excommunication on a murderer, that person will receive a letter and it will be duly entered in the acts of the Holy See. I’m questioning whether any of this due process has been observed. Not whether the Pope can do it or not.
 
From an off-the-cuff remark in a homily? Brother JR said this can be done?

I’m not debating the reasons with you. I’m debating the method and the nature of the penalty. I’m sure if the Pope decrees excommunication on a murderer, that person will receive a letter and it will be duly entered in the acts of the Holy See. I’m questioning whether any of this due process has been observed. Not whether the Pope can do it or not.
I don’t understand why you are so hung up about due process. Though Canon law may resemble civil law in the way it is implemented, it can be done away with in ways that civil law would never tolerate. Take, for example, the prerequisites for canonization. The pope can simply dismiss all of the requirements dictated by Canon law as nothing more than a whim and it is done. It seems reasonable to me that the same applies to every aspect of Canon law, including excommunication. It doesn’t need to be entered into the Church’s registry to become “official.”
 
I surely miss the days when there was a liturgical rite for excommunication, there were vitandi and tolerati, and there was a Holy Office that actually went after people. Now we just have off-the-cuff excommunications of random groups of criminals.
 
And isn’t that what it means to be excommunicated, to place oneself outside of the Church? I think we are talking in circles here.

Perhaps Pope Francis can do like the pirates in the book Treasure Island and simply give them “the black spot,” and that would avoid any confusion!
No, excommunication is a legal term which refers to a specific censure. The Pope took great liberty and used the technical term as hyperbole to describe the extreme opinion he has of these people.

I can place myself outside the Church and make myself ineligible for the sacraments in myriad ways. The only way to be formally and actually excommunicated is to follow legal procedure.
 
And isn’t that what it means to be excommunicated, to place oneself outside of the Church? I think we are talking in circles here.

Perhaps Pope Francis can do like the pirates in the book Treasure Island and simply give them “the black spot,” and that would avoid any confusion!
Lol!
 
The Pope took great liberty and used the technical term as hyperbole to describe the extreme opinion he has of these people.
That, my friend, is your personal opinion that places you in a position of judgement over the pontiff of the Catholic Church. Are you so sure in your opinion that you want to go in such a direction or will you admit that perhaps you have misunderstood things and fail to understand Pope Francis’ intention?
I can place myself outside the Church and make myself ineligible for the sacraments in myriad ways. The only way to be formally and actually excommunicated is to follow legal procedure.
And I have stated before that Brother JR, a Franciscan and a theologian, has said that a pope can, as the law giver of the Church, excommunicate anyone he wants at anytime and for any reason. He does not have to follow “legal procedure.” That is your opinion and interpretation. For the same reason that a pope may dispense with Canon law whenever they are inclined, a pope may declare a person to be excommunicated. By what authority do you determine that the “only way” a person may be “actually excommunicated is to follow legal procedure?” What precedent or canon supports your position?
 
And yet the Vatican Spokesman said that you are wrong on this and that nobody was actually excommunicated. Who am I going to believe, the Vatican or a proxied interpretation of something Brother JR said that doesn’t even apply to the point I am making? My interpretation of the Pope is according to what the Vatican Press Office said. Yours is yours and yours alone.

You seem to be hearing me say that the Pope can’t excommunicate the Mafia if he wants to. I never said he CAN’T. I (and the Vatican Press Office) said he DIDN’T.
 
The only way to be formally and actually excommunicated is to follow legal procedure.
You seem to be hearing me say that the Pope can’t excommunicate the Mafia if he wants to. I never said he CAN’T. I (and the Vatican Press Office) said he DIDN’T.
Make up your mind. Either he can and he did or he can’t and he didn’t.
And yet the Vatican Spokesman said that you are wrong on this and that nobody was actually excommunicated. Who am I going to believe, the Vatican or a proxied interpretation of something Brother JR said that doesn’t even apply to the point I am making? My interpretation of the Pope is according to what the Vatican Press Office said. Yours is yours and yours alone
I see. So the Holy Father declares that “they are excommunicated,” but you and a Vatican spokesman have decided that “nobody was actually excommunicated.” Tell me; when the pope declares someone to be canonized, do you parse his words along with Canon law to determine if they really are saints or determine that no one was actually canonized? I’m not making light of the discussion; if the pope’s authority can be undermined by not following “due process” of Canon law, then how can Pope John Paul be canonized when Pope Benedict simply waved the requirements necessary as stated in Canon law? To state that the pontiff is bound by the letter of Canon law goes against precedent and tradition.
 
The Pope is not bound by Canon Law, but the Pope follows the correct procedures when he wishes to perform an official act that has the force of law.

We would have a very bad Pope indeed if he decided that because he can do anything he wants, his word should always be considered law.

When a judge wishes to rule over a court, he puts on a robe, he sits on the bench, and he uses the gavel. He ensures that his judgements are entered correctly in the reporter’s record and the clerks carry out his wishes. This is all done through a formal process so that there can be no doubt about the judge’s actions.

When a judge goes to a dinner party, he converses casually with his friends and colleagues, and while he can speak authoritatively on matters of law, nobody comes away from the dinner thinking that the judge has made formal rulings in cases, and there is no court reporter taking down his words and looking for official judgements.

When the President of the United States wants to do something, he goes through the channels. He signs a document, he sends a memo. He can probably give verbal orders to the correct person in certain cases. But generally, when he does something legal, he goes on record with it, and signs off, for example, an executive order, a bill becoming law.

What the President can’t do is hold a press conference and hold up a bill from Congress and say “This bill is now a law!” If he hasn’t signed it, that won’t fly. He hasn’t gone through the correct channels, he is not in the correct venue to make executive actions. A press conference is a time to answer questions and make statements to reporters.

Likewise, a homily is the time to expound on the Scriptures and teach doctrine. It is a liturgical act during which the clergy exercise their teaching office. It is not the venue for decrees or legislation. The Pope’s words were ambiguous, because he did not explicitly say “I have excommunicated them!” or “They have excommunicated themselves” he said “They are excommunicated!” (I read the Italian original.) If the Pope meant to pass a sentence then he would have signed a document to be released in conjunction with his homily. He would not have relied on the press to get the word out to the criminals that a censure has been issued, he would have sent letters. The Curia would have an unmitigated heart attack if the Pope suddenly decided to issue verbal decrees in homilies.

Your example of canonization is absurd. Because the agreements were waived through the proper channels. The Pope submits signed memos to the appropriate dicastery and they authenticate them. The canonization ceremonies are public, formal liturgical acts. I am 99% sure that a written act of canonization is presented during the ceremony. The action taken is written into various Church documents, especially Acta Apostolicae Sedis. No, if a bishop made an off-the-cuff remark in a homily that said “Elizium23 is a saint”, that would not carry the force of a canonization ceremony either. So you’re looking at apples and oranges.

I have never said that the Pope is bound by Canon Law. To take an example of his largesse, look at Holy Thursday when he washes the feet of women. He is clearly taking liberties with liturgical law in that respect. He doesn’t need to rewrite the Missal or make a formal announcement, he just does the liturgical action. That in itself is an example of his power as Lawgiver. Let me be crystal clear: he CAN do anything he wants but he DOESN’T do many things.

He can excommunicate the Mafia but he did not do so. He made an off-the-cuff remark which was backed up by the clarification in the Press Office. That’s their job now, to make sure the world knows what the Pope actually meant. I am sure that Jimmy Akin and Dr. Ed Peters will weigh in shortly, in fact I am counting on it so that I have more ammunition, although I had hoped against hope that a simple statement from the Vatican spox would be clear enough.
 
The Pope is not bound by Canon Law, but the Pope follows the correct procedures when he wishes to perform an official act that has the force of law.

We would have a very bad Pope indeed if he decided that because he can do anything he wants, his word should always be considered law.
As the law giver of the Church, the pope CAN do anything he wants and his word IS law. I cannot for the life of me understand why this eludes you. The pope can abrogate the entire code of Canon law to day if he wishes. Your infatuation with due process is misplaced. This isn’t civil law that we are talking about but Canon law, two entirely different beasts.
When a judge wishes…

When a judge goes to a dinner party…

When the President of the United States wants to do something…

What the President can’t do is …
Judges and presidents are bound by the law and the Constitution. Their powers are explicitly defined and anything that they do outside of those boundaries can result in being removed from their position and possibly going to jail.

You keep saying that the pope isn’t bound by Canon law, yet you keep insisting that he must follow the precepts established by it. So which is it?
, a homily is the time to expound on the Scriptures and teach doctrine. It is a liturgical act during which the clergy exercise their teaching office. It is not the venue for decrees or legislation. The Pope’s words were ambiguous, because he did not explicitly say “I have excommunicated them!” or “They have excommunicated themselves” he said “They are excommunicated!” (I read the Italian original.)
Oh, for goodness sake; you are just making this stuff up, now! Do you mean to tell me that the pontiff of the Catholic Church is forbidden from exercising his authority during a homily?!?!? Can you point to Canon law where this is forbidden?!?!? And how is the phrase “they are excommunicated” ambiguous??? What could it possibly mean other than the obvious???
If the Pope meant to pass a sentence then he would have signed a document to be released in conjunction with his homily.
Again, you fail to grasp the authority of the pontiff. A signed document would be nice and all, but the authority is in his word, not a slip of paper.
example of canonization is absurd. Because the agreements were waived through the proper channels. The Pope submits signed memos to the appropriate dicastery and they authenticate them.
Again, your infatuation with canonical due process is your undoing.
, if a bishop made an off-the-cuff remark in a homily that said “Elizium23 is a saint”, that would not carry the force of a canonization ceremony either. So you’re looking at apples and oranges.
Funny you say this because Brother JR has said many times that this is exactly how St. Francis was canonized. The pope of the time was a personal friend of Francis and St. Clare. He knew Francis’ sanctity and he simply declared him to be canonized outside of all of the established procedures. So what are we to make of that?
I am sure that Jimmy Akin and Dr. Ed Peters will weigh in shortly, in fact I am counting on it so that I have more ammunition, although I had hoped against hope that a simple statement from the Vatican spox would be clear enough.
So you take Jimmy Akins word over that of the Holy Father? Nice. :rolleyes:
 
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