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Santi2
Guest
Whilst Margaret Tatcher voted for abortion, I remember, however, that she opposed the destruction of human embryos and stem cell research (will provide a link to that when I come across it).
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petronus
Guest
A Bill supported by Margaret Thatcher .
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Immacolata
Guest
I did not agree with her politics, and she is largely disliked in the UK for her policies involving the working class. However, she has family and friends who loved her and who wish to grieve. I hope that those who may not have liked her will at least consider those who did, and are still healing from their loss.
I will pray for the repose of her soul. May she rest in peace.
I will pray for the repose of her soul. May she rest in peace.
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petronus
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Yes , and I remember the Thatcher Government’s Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act of 1990 which amended the 1967 Abortion Act with the effect that abortion was now allowed to FULL TERM for disability , life of the mother and health of the mother .
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pepipop
Guest
May she RIP, however some of her domestic policies and particularly her lack of support for black South Africans leaves a lot to be desired.
Her fight against communism, although horrific and abhorent, is also seen as a means of suppressing capitalism and enabling a greater number of rich to get richer. An over generalisation, I know, and some of her economic legacies helped to sustain the British economy through the recent global crisis. However, I would doubt that her policies were grown out of the love and care of ‘joe public’ and more likely ‘everyone get out and help themselves’, and if you can’t keep up - tough.
theglobeandmail.com/news/world/thatcher-was-wrong-on-apartheid-mandela/article10926500/
*When she denounced Nelson Mandela’s liberation movement as a “typical terrorist organization” and rejected calls for sanctions against South Africa’s white minority government, Margaret Thatcher found herself on the wrong side of history.
Characteristically, she never admitted error. In 1987, just seven years before the fall of apartheid, a Thatcher spokesman scoffed that it was “cloud cuckoo-land” to suggest that Mr. Mandela would ever win power. In the same year, Mrs. Thatcher clashed repeatedly with the Brian Mulroney government as she bitterly fought Canada’s efforts to introduce Commonwealth sanctions against South Africa.*
Her fight against communism, although horrific and abhorent, is also seen as a means of suppressing capitalism and enabling a greater number of rich to get richer. An over generalisation, I know, and some of her economic legacies helped to sustain the British economy through the recent global crisis. However, I would doubt that her policies were grown out of the love and care of ‘joe public’ and more likely ‘everyone get out and help themselves’, and if you can’t keep up - tough.
theglobeandmail.com/news/world/thatcher-was-wrong-on-apartheid-mandela/article10926500/
*When she denounced Nelson Mandela’s liberation movement as a “typical terrorist organization” and rejected calls for sanctions against South Africa’s white minority government, Margaret Thatcher found herself on the wrong side of history.
Characteristically, she never admitted error. In 1987, just seven years before the fall of apartheid, a Thatcher spokesman scoffed that it was “cloud cuckoo-land” to suggest that Mr. Mandela would ever win power. In the same year, Mrs. Thatcher clashed repeatedly with the Brian Mulroney government as she bitterly fought Canada’s efforts to introduce Commonwealth sanctions against South Africa.*
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markomalley
Guest
Bill Clinton is not evil incarnate solely because he supported abortion. There are a LOT of politicians (including the great Ronaldus Magnus) who, at one point in their lives supported abortion. However, as time moved on, they changed their stance to impact available science.
For example, read this account of Reagan’s dealings in regard to the California therapeutic abortion bill. “…this was “the only time as governor or president that Reagan acknowledged a mistake on major legislation.” Clark called the incident “perhaps Reagan’s greatest disappointment in public life.””
David Steel’s abortion bill was approved by Parliament in 1967. The last time I could find that she was asked about this was in 1978. Do I know what her attitude was in 1990, 2000, or 2010? I don’t know if anybody asked. And oh, by the way, since the science at the time was not nearly as conclusive as it is now, we have to look at matters of faith. I don’t know about the Church of England, but the Episcopal Church supported abortion, on a limited basis, as far back as 1967.
Bill Clinton is viewed by conservatives as evil (vice evil incarnate) for a number of reasons: support for abortion is only one piece in the puzzle. He was an inviolate womanizer, rapist. (Note I am providing links if I make an accusation), and a little bit of a pervert (a cigar, really???). While he decided to involve the US in the Balkans, he chose to ignore the Rwandan genocide (which resulted in the deaths of 800,000 Tutsis and the hands of the Hutus). He, as one of the leaders of NATO, is responsible for alleged NATO War Crimes committed against Serbia (there was no UN resolution and no other sovereign state was threatened by Serbia. By the Law of Armed Conflict, that makes the entire Kosovo adventure a war crime). His administration’s lack of oversight resulted in a number of financial scandals, including the Worldcom scandal and the Enron Scandal. (primarily responsibility of Treasury Secretary Rubin and SEC Chair Levitt)
What I can say positive about Bill Clinton was that he was sufficiently pragmatic to change his positions when he had his tail handed to him in the 1994 mid-term elections. Consequently, he found within himself the ability to work with the Republicans who swept the Democrats out of power in Congress. To his credit, he approved Republican initiatives for Welfare reform, block grants to states versus micromanagement by federal bureaucracies, and other measures that resulted in the economic boom of the late 90s. Sadly, the boom was marred by scandal such as the ones I mentioned above.
Frankly, I can’t ever imagine hearing Clinton saying that “we will punish our enemies and reward our friends.”
Again, though, I don’t see him as being evil incarnate…because of his post-1994 pragmatism. Evil, yes (see above). But evil incarnate? Well, I haven’t seen anything where he has intentionally tried to hurt the USA. (Like making it as painful as possible because people did not accede to his wishes). So I can’t make that leap to call him evil incarnate.
But comparing Thatcher to Clinton because of abortion? Nah. Apples and oranges.
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petronus
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EDKidd
Guest
I am from a working class background and apparently one of ‘Thatcher’s Children’ having grown up in the midst of her changes to the UK. Like many children from working class families (particularly Northern England, Scotland & Wales. I’ll leave Ireland to others), I grew up with the very real and tangible feeling of having no hope and little chance of a future. Schools were worse than useless, being treadmills for disaffected youth; there were no jobs for those leaving school and families were torn apart as the falling away of the manufacturing and heavy industry sectors left many men without a job or role in society. The effects of this are still apparent today with many people existing in what is commonly referred to as a ‘sub class’.
There has been much written and said about Margaret Thatcher over the last 24 hours and let nobody forget that all the ‘strong leader’, ‘conviction politician’, ‘patriotic’, ‘transformed the country’ etc descriptions, could easily be applied to lunatics like Hitler, Stalin et al.
What has been interesting are the remarks from those outside the UK, namely USA, where Thatcher is highly thought of. It is natural I suppose that politicians from foreign countries are judged by their foreign policies. There appears to me an ironic correlation between Obama and Thatcher in as much as they are largely disliked by their fellow countrymen and adored by those abroad. Many people in the UK love Obama and cannot understand why Americans don’t share their feelings. Reading many of the comments from the USA it would appear that Americans are similarly confused as to why Thatcher could be so despised in her country of origin.
I am refusing to engage in the glee at her passing that many in my part of the world (North West England/North East Wales) are so vocally expressing. It has been humbling for me to see the physical demise of someone who was once so strong and powerful and a reminder that many of us will become old, frail, weak and dependent. An old lady has died leaving children and grandchildren that will be mourning at this very moment and it is important to remember this simple truth. As for the legacy of her politics, that will continue to divide most people. In the UK we often refer to something being like Marmite (you either love it or hate it), Margaret Thatcher is someone that will probably always fall into this category.
There has been much written and said about Margaret Thatcher over the last 24 hours and let nobody forget that all the ‘strong leader’, ‘conviction politician’, ‘patriotic’, ‘transformed the country’ etc descriptions, could easily be applied to lunatics like Hitler, Stalin et al.
What has been interesting are the remarks from those outside the UK, namely USA, where Thatcher is highly thought of. It is natural I suppose that politicians from foreign countries are judged by their foreign policies. There appears to me an ironic correlation between Obama and Thatcher in as much as they are largely disliked by their fellow countrymen and adored by those abroad. Many people in the UK love Obama and cannot understand why Americans don’t share their feelings. Reading many of the comments from the USA it would appear that Americans are similarly confused as to why Thatcher could be so despised in her country of origin.
I am refusing to engage in the glee at her passing that many in my part of the world (North West England/North East Wales) are so vocally expressing. It has been humbling for me to see the physical demise of someone who was once so strong and powerful and a reminder that many of us will become old, frail, weak and dependent. An old lady has died leaving children and grandchildren that will be mourning at this very moment and it is important to remember this simple truth. As for the legacy of her politics, that will continue to divide most people. In the UK we often refer to something being like Marmite (you either love it or hate it), Margaret Thatcher is someone that will probably always fall into this category.
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markomalley
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There were similar celebrations in the US when Reagan died. In fact, there are still people who celebrate his death (9 years later).
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Mariem2
Guest
This is so true. The very sight of her made me angry but I recall feeling some grudging admiration for her on her final day in office. Best just to pray for her…at least until after her funeral.
(Ooh Ahh - nice signature:bowdown2
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EDKidd
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I just don’t see any justification for this at all, for anyone really. After 9 years as well…
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EDKidd
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And to think I was considering changing it:blush:(Ooh Ahh - nice signature:bowdown2
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Kaninchen
Guest
While I can appreciate - as I did at the time - that the results of her economic policies caused great grief in areas of the UK, it wasn’t that they caused the decline and fall of UK industry. Basically, it was a case of pulling the subsidy plug on a dying patient.
Capitalism isn’t good or bad, capitalism just is and it was rapidly moving on. The economic/industrial policies of the 70’s had left the UK with decline, inefficiency, industrial turmoil and being on the verge of ungovernable.
The left in British politics at the time had no solutions that wouldn’t end up with a situation where the UK became a collection of nationalized and semi-nationalized industries kept going, when they weren’t on strike for even more subsidy and more say in economic policy, by taxation of everybody else. It wasn’t and couldn’t be viable, it wasn’t that long before more ‘advanced’ versions of such policies - as in, say, the DDR - collapsed.
Capitalism isn’t good or bad, capitalism just is and it was rapidly moving on. The economic/industrial policies of the 70’s had left the UK with decline, inefficiency, industrial turmoil and being on the verge of ungovernable.
The left in British politics at the time had no solutions that wouldn’t end up with a situation where the UK became a collection of nationalized and semi-nationalized industries kept going, when they weren’t on strike for even more subsidy and more say in economic policy, by taxation of everybody else. It wasn’t and couldn’t be viable, it wasn’t that long before more ‘advanced’ versions of such policies - as in, say, the DDR - collapsed.
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markomalley
Guest
Great point (and you and I don’t usually agree on things)
That’s the key question for anybody who criticizes the Baroness on this thread: what would you have done…and what would the long-term impact of taking that decision?
Just saying, “I’d help _____” isn’t the answer, as the “help” requires money from someplace and, as I recall, after years of Labour leadership, Britain was drowning in debt.
“Let us never forget this fundamental truth: The State has no source of money other than the money people themselves earn.” ~ Margaret Thatcher
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oldcelt
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You see very clearly.
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liturgyluver
Guest
I had what turned out to be the pleasure of working with Lady Thatcher in the Civil Service late 1980s. Despite not agreeing with all her policies she had that rare ability for a politician to be motivated by what she thought was right and by what was in the best interests of the country. She was a warm funny and personable lady who showed great concern for those around her - and she hated any form of racial or sexual discrimination.
As Kannichen said above industry practices were long overdue for reform - Barbara Castle a Labour minister had tried before as early as 1969 and not succeded. And she was a strong supporter of both the NHS “The NHS is safe in my hands” and the Welfare State, and believed passionately that every civislised society must provide a safety net for the most vulnerable.
Her funeral takes place at St Paul’s Cathedral next Wednesday.
As Kannichen said above industry practices were long overdue for reform - Barbara Castle a Labour minister had tried before as early as 1969 and not succeded. And she was a strong supporter of both the NHS “The NHS is safe in my hands” and the Welfare State, and believed passionately that every civislised society must provide a safety net for the most vulnerable.
Her funeral takes place at St Paul’s Cathedral next Wednesday.
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Slaney
Guest
Thats like asking a baby would you like to be butchered, shot, drawn & quartered or hung, murder is murder, we can’t make it pretty…
Margaret Thatcher was a dictator, a totalitarian in government who treated her colleagues like dim-wits & who publicly embarrassed the Irish government, namely Dr Garret Fitzgerald with her " that’s out, that’s out, that’s out for all the world to see.
She was condescending, and wore a false smile, God will judge her soul, but I personally despised her “my way or no way” dictatorial leadership, about as flexible as a 2x4 plank of wood !
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october_baby
Guest
There is a difference between a American conservative and a European conservative.
European conservatives tend to be what an American conservatives call RINO or CINO.
Conservative on economics or conservative on military issues but progressive on social issues. A good example of this would be John Mcain,Lindsey Gramham, and Mitt
Romney.
As far as Clinton goes, I don’t think he’s evil incarnate, but I do hold him guilty for
the coarsening of the culture and preparing the way where we have two progressive
presidents (Bush 43 and Obama.)
European conservatives tend to be what an American conservatives call RINO or CINO.
Conservative on economics or conservative on military issues but progressive on social issues. A good example of this would be John Mcain,Lindsey Gramham, and Mitt
Romney.
As far as Clinton goes, I don’t think he’s evil incarnate, but I do hold him guilty for
the coarsening of the culture and preparing the way where we have two progressive
presidents (Bush 43 and Obama.)
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petronus
Guest
And the cost of the funeral is estimated at £8 million .
And who will pay ?
The State .
Where has the free enterprise , anti-State intervention Capitalism gone ?
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SamH
Guest
Source?And the cost of the funeral is estimated at £8 million .
And who will pay ?
The State .
Where has the free enterprise , anti-State intervention Capitalism gone ?
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