Making Hell make sense

[Thorolfr]

He wanted whatever was not God - so he got wanted he wanted - he didn’t get to spend eternity with God, but spends eternity apart from God which is how he lived his life.

I’m sure that there are many people who do want to be with God and live most of their lives in a way that they think God would want, but who sincerely disagree that some things are grave sins as claimed by the Catholic Church. For example, someone might decide to be a Freemason and not believe that this is a grave sin. Being a Freemason wouldn’t mean that such a person wanted whatever is not God.

Note: Even I didn’t know that the Catholic Church considers this to be a grave sin:

The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion. (Declaration on Masonic Associations).

I do a lot of genealogy research and frequently come across people who lived in the US in the 19th century who were Freemasons, all Protestants, I’m sure.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Thank you for the information. OK, as you have made it clear, the person does suffer and does know what (Whom) he is missing. I am still not entirely convinced that he got what he wanted. He may have gotten the consequences which he deserved (as does the criminal), but what he WANTED? I’m not so sure about that, unless the word “want” is used in a special way here as in he reaped what he has sown. In that case, the choice is not so much one of eternal suffering and damnation but rather rejection of Gd, which, to my mind, is not the same. He would probably have rather gotten away with his bad behavior rather than suffer such tremendous consequences.

The New Testament refers to Hell as a place of weeping and significantly “gnashing of teeth” but we know from the use of that phrase in the OT that it refers to an attitude of anger and vengeance (Psalms 37:12, 35:16, 112:10, Lamentations 2 :16).

It flows from that meaning that hell is a state of preferring to hold onto that hate of the Judge and desire for vengeance against Him, than to admit guilt and have remorse for sin.

This is why the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession) is so highly valued to Catholics. It is the antidote to the pride of not wanting to admit guilt and ask for forgiveness.

 

[CRV]

sincerely disagree that some things are grave sins as claimed by the Catholic Church

We are to form our consciences according to the Catholic Church teaching and are obliged to believe and accept the dogmas of our Faith. As our consciences are darkened by the concupiscence to sin, we do not or at least should not place our opinions over those taught by the Catholic Church.

someone might decide to be a Freemason and not believe that this is a grave sin.

If they don’t believe it isn’t a grave sin because they do not know what the Church teaches and that it is a grave sin, then there is not mortal sin.
If they do know the Church teaches it is gravely wrong to be a freemason, and then join, there are present the 3 things necessary for it to be mortal - matter, knowledge, and consent.
Jesus left us the Church to guide us here on Earth, and we are to submit our intellect to the teachings/dogma of the Church.

Irreconcilability between Christian faith and Freemasonry

Masonry (Freemasonry)

 

[meltzerboy2]

So you’re saying that even though those in hell are suffering, they are also still prideful, angry, and hateful and thus refuse to have remorse or admit guilt and be reconciled with Gd. That somewhat answers my second question involving whether people in hell really want to be there. In a sense, then, they do, because they still refuse to love Gd and persist in their evil ways despite their suffering.

 

[CRV]

those in hell are suffering, they are also still prideful, angry, and hateful and thus refuse to have remorse or admit guilt

True.

they still refuse to love Gd and persist in their evil ways

Yes, whatever the state of the soul at death is how they are for eternity. In the case of unrepentant mortal sin - there is no change in attitude, will etc. because they have basically reject God and goodness.

In the case of those souls in purgatory, they choice was for God and goodness, though still imperfect, undergo purification in purgatory to enable them to be with God.

In the case of souls who go straight to Heaven, they have chosen their ultimate Good - God.

 

[Thorolfr]

What if someone is Protestant and knows many of the teachings of the Catholic Church but nevertheless does not accept those teachings as being in any way authoritative? Such a person can’t exactly claim ignorance, but they still might not believe the Catholic Church’s claim to be the one true church founded by Jesus Christ.

 

[Emeraldlady]

So you’re saying that even though those in hell are suffering, they are also still prideful, angry, and hateful and thus refuse to have remorse or admit guilt and be reconciled with Gd. That somewhat answers my second question involving whether people in hell really want to be there. In a sense, then, they do, because they still refuse to love Gd and persist in their evil ways despite their suffering.

The “gnashing of teeth” phrase signifies, the anger and defiant attitude of the hellbound, yes. I guess we can get a sense of it in our lives when we hang onto offense and vengeance rather than let it go to the judgement of G-d.

 

[meltzerboy2]

In Judaism, we also have purgatory with the same function as in Catholicism, but a shorter period of (human) time. Hell is a fuzzier concept and a place reserved for only the truly wicked, whose soul might also be annihilated instead of suffering for eternity.

 

[CRV]

does not accept those teachings as being in any way authoritative? …

That is a problem - to know of the Catholic Church, to know she is the one true church and still refuse to enter into it. CCC #846 “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” comes from Lumen gentium #14 and Mark 16:16, John 3:5.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Memories don’t need to be taken away.

 

[RobynP]

Is the person therefore suffering in hell? If so, then I contend that he did NOT get what he wanted since he did not want punishment and suffering. OTOH, if he is NOT suffering, then how can we call this state of mind or place hell since the person does not know what he is missing, that is, being with Gd?

Perhaps hell is only seen as hell from the perspective of heaven?

Like how only someone not trapped in the depths of a drug addiction can see clearly how empty and painful a life it is. For those in the middle of it, it doesn’t feel that way.

And regardless of whether or not the addict experiences pleasure, we can still say objectively that this type of lifestyle is a tragedy of self-inflicted emptiness and pain. In other words, a hellish existence.

The same I think could be said of hell.

Jesus is pretty clear about how horrid a fate it is, because it’s not what humans were made for. We were made for love and hell is the total absence of all love (except narcissistic self-love.)

The damned will know what they turned away from was their ultimate happiness, but I think it’s fair to say in some perverted sense they really do prefer the pain of hell to heaven.

ETA:

By the way, I’m not saying people with addictions are going to hell. I don’t believe that. Addiction is a disease and those afflicted with it are not always culpable. But I think there is a parallel between the self-destructive state of an addict and the souls in hell.

 

[meltzerboy2]

I have also heard (here on CAF) that those in hell would not be able to endure the brilliance (physical, emotional, spiritual) of heaven. It would be too intense an experience for them. So maybe, in that sense, their choice of hell is more suited to what they are used to in their earthly life. Anyhow, they maintain their defiance and so remain where they are. Still, it is hard not to feel any sorrow for them, as I am sure Gd does.

 

[Thorolfr]

I said that someone might know what the Catholic Church teaches but still might not believe that it is the one true church. We often have a few visitors here in CAF who are Episcopalians or Lutherans or Methodists, or Baptists, etc. who probably learn what Catholics believe but still don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Is invincible ignorance a matter of intellectual ignorance or rather defiance in rejecting what one knows to be true? I think it is the latter.

 

[Pug]

No, you respect their decision not to attend, and enjoy yourself at the party. God respects the choices we make in life.

The party example is hard for me, it doesn’t feel like respect. I think of 99 and of 1 sheep and the imperative to find it, that it belongs in the flock. Yet the time for finding it is past by then, I suppose. But one of the articles/links was helpful. I can see that God would not be perturbed. He loves and is not perturbed. That part was helpful, thank you.

 

[TMC]

Of course we have to believe that people are in hell.

Why is that?

 

[TMC]

That is Universalism which is a heresy and condemned by the Church. Catholics may not believe that everyone will be saved in the end.

I don’t believe that is correct, but maybe I am wrong. The Catechism certainly does not say that Catholics must believe in a populated hell.

 

[CRV]

I said that someone might know what the Catholic Church teaches but still might not believe that it is the one true church.

Oh, I see my blunder. I can understand how that may be. Hopefully they would study the Catholic Faith in order to understand why the Catholic Church is the one true Church, and then enter Her.

We often have a few visitors here in CAF who are Episcopalians or Lutherans or Methodists, or Baptists, etc. who probably learn what Catholics believe but still don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church.

Well I apoligize as I did not know you had in mind the non-Catholic visitors to this site. But church teaching is what it is.

 

[LittleFlower378]

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you, that anyone who becomes angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment. But whoever will have called his brother, ‘Idiot,’ shall be liable to the council. Then, whoever will have called him, ‘Worthless,’ shall be liable to the fires of Hell.

If no one goes to hell then no one is liable to hell. Jesus talked alot about hell, it’s all through the Gospels, if no one was there it could go there then why mention it. It’s heresy to believe that there is no people in hell.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Most ideas on choosing Heaven or Hell involves free will.
Mathematics, physics, metaphysics, and language arts strict logic philosophy all indicate there must be other planes of existence. For example, Einstein giving good physics theory on at least one plane of existence 90° (degrees) from everything.
The Holy Bible describes where we live sometimes as Valley of Decision;
Valley of Tears; and Valley of The Shadow of Death.
~
There are three related difficult mysterious questions. How can God who is all powerful, all knowing, and all seeing Create a realm of existence with the possibility of evil causing such unearned suffering?
Science calls consciousness the ‘hard’ problem, since mere physical science cannot explain such things as the preponderance of at least two or three reliable witnesses
confirming that a dead person, while dead reported conversations or objects in different rooms or even further away. And other things besides, like how can non sentient laws of physics involving time, space, & matter form a sentient being? Or any form of life that exists on instinctual behavior for that matter. Mere physical science cannot explain these things; while philosophy can point to an unmoved mover; uncaused cause, a non-contingent being, and so on.
~
But we know we have sentient consciousness. We know we make decisions. We know those decisions sometimes cause others harm. We Judaeo Christians Believe that Jesus Christ came to fulfill for all the nations the Way to repentance, forgiveness,
healing, and true peace, not as the world gives - absence of conflict masking internal restlessness by the cares of this world, substance abuse, distractions, pleasure seeking and the like; which only exist temporarily - and never heal to inner peace.
~
Why did Jesus Christ Ascend? Well He did send The Spirit of Truth for those who are willing to receive by Divine not merited favor knowledge of our Benevolent God; and to form a Covenant Relationship (Love God) with God and our neighbor as ourselves to learn self giving objective truth, goodness (ethics), and beauty. But He did say some will choose God by His Merits and some will not. And He taught, we will all be judged impartially by our knowledge in Providence as to choosing vanity or self-giving charity.
And before He ascended He said it is not for us to know the times and seasons established by The Father’s Own Authority.
~
My own personal conclusion is this. The Valley alluded to above are where God writes The Creation & Salvation Living Story, Multifaceted Epics of families whereby in Providence adults according to freewill choose ultimate good v. evil. That when one enters the sleep of death as a reprobate, then one chose to be at enmity with God; with only vanity & crocodile tears of remorse, not repentance by one’s own decisions and actions. And will always be a danger to others, this must be separated for all Eternity form those who chose to cooperate with Grace and be in a state of Grace.
~ (cont…)