Making Hell make sense

[CRV]

I’ve heard the party example many times before. Church leaders I greatly respect (Bishop R. Barron) use it.

Really? I had no idea. I honestly just made it up as it came to me.

how could every tear be wiped away

I understand that to mean the sufferings we undergo in this life. In heaven every tear will be wiped away because there is no suffering in Heaven.

how could one rest knowing his daughter was “out there?”

Because our focus will be entirely on God, so as I understand it we won’t be focused on what we’re missing.

how could one rest knowing his daughter was “out there?” Away from home. Away from her own beatitude.

Because we accept their free choice as does God. Because our focus is God and God alone. Because in this life we are to love God above all - to love God more than we love ourselves or our families or (fill in the blank). We are not to prefer anything or anyone to God, but to be detached from all. Hence in Heaven God will be all in all.

I challenge you that if you’re a parent, you would find that situation to be insufferable. You would never rest, and your sorrow would not leave you (as it shouldn’t).

I am a parent and grandparent. And over the last decade I have had to come to terms with decisions my children have made - accept their choices even if I don’t like it and know it isn’t in their best interests either in this life or the next. I don’t like it, but I tried and could not change it, so the only other option is to accept it (and pray to God of course). As Jesus said something along the lines that if they won’t accept the teaching in that town, then to shake off the dust from beneath your sandals. So I’ve entrusted them to the mercy of God.

Again, there is no suffering in Heaven. God is perfect - all good. Nothing of darkness can be in his presence. There is only joy, happiness - all perfection, all good.

 

[CRV]

Good article on this:- Will All Be Saved? by Richard John Neuhaus 2001

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

This is true, and yet how could every tear be wiped away if your daughter (for example) is not in His Father’s house?

God is omnipotent.

 

[meltzerboy2]

If hell is believed to be punishment, then how can a person who goes to hell be “getting what he wants”? If the individual gets what he wants, then it seems to me hell is not punishment. As an analogy, if someone goes to prison, he does NOT get what he wants. Rather, he is being punished for breaking the law. Is it not similar in the case of hell? Apparently not, for I have heard it said here many times that the person who goes to hell chooses to do so by rejecting Gd and His morality. But surely even if this is so, the person in hell is not ultimately getting what he wants if he is suffering. If the latter takes place, he is being punished and NOT getting what he wants. If, OTOH, he is not suffering, then how can this place or state of mind that is called hell really be so?

 

[TMC]

Thanks. I will take time to read it in detail, but on a quick skim it looks like a good article.

 

[CRV]

@Magnanimity
What is Heaven Really Like? by Jimmy Akin who explains it under “Pain in Heaven” especially the point you raise about knowing others whom we love are perhaps in hell.

 

[Magnanimity]

Because our focus will be entirely on God, so as I understand it we won’t be focused on what we’re missing.

Ok, I’m following you here, and I like the direction your thoughts are going in (focus entirely on God), however, we are not here speaking of what you, in Heaven, are missing. We are speaking of those absent. We’re talking about the child who ran away from her home (from her destiny). So, not about you—about your daughter.

Because our focus is God and God alone. Because in this life we are to love God above all - to love God more than we love ourselves or our families or (fill in the blank). We are not to prefer anything or anyone to God, but to be detached from all. Hence in Heaven God will be all in all.

If you have the time, I invite you to read the passage where St Paul speaks of God being “all in all” (1 Cor. 15). It is a sweeping eschatological vision where Christ brings the kingdom of God to the Father (“for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive”).

And I would also remind you that there are two great commandments, not one. You are to love God and your neighbor, which I take it to mean everyone. So we do not focus on God to the exclusion of the other. It is not a zero-sum situation. Love is big enough to encompass multitudes.

. I don’t like it, but I tried and could not change it, so the only other option is to accept it (and pray to God of course).

Precisely. I am a parent as well, and it sounds as if the thing that you have let go of is your attempt to control aspects of the lives of your children and possibly your grandchildren. We cannot control them. But we can never cease wanting what is best for them, praying for them, and when possible, loving them through our involvement in their lives. This will never cease to be to be true. It will never cease to be true. The attainment of heaven does not make your love for others not there, cease to exist. How could it? That would effectively take away a crucial part of who you are. You are the totality of your experiences and your memories. Upon Christ’s resurrection, he did not let go of his memories of the prior life. He retained them. You will retain yours.

Again, there is no suffering in Heaven.

And yet, what of the others who have not yet come home? Would you really tell yourself that you could rest? Even if your children are not there? I highly doubt that. Many saints have declared that they would not rest for strangers in hell. And yet you could rest with your family there?

 

[CRV]

how can a person who goes to hell be “getting what he wants”?

He wanted whatever was not God - so he got wanted he wanted - he didn’t get to spend eternity with God, but spends eternity apart from God which is how he lived his life.

On the Pains of Hell by St. Alphonsus

 

[Magnanimity]

God is omnipotent.

And yet He does not do the impossible—he does not make you cease to be you. Does not take away your experiences or memories. Would you believe that Christ remembered nothing of his passion and death upon his resurrection? I can see no good reason to believe that.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Is the person therefore suffering in hell? If so, then I contend that he did NOT get what he wanted since he did not want punishment and suffering. OTOH, if he is NOT suffering, then how can we call this state of mind or place hell since the person does not know what he is missing, that is, being with Gd?

 

[Magnanimity]

Of course we have to believe that people are in hell.

The church regularly practices canonization. It has not ever (not once) practiced “reverse-canonization,” the positive affirmation that such and such a person is in Hell.

 

[CRV]

You are to love God and your neighbor, which I take it to mean everyone.

That’s true. Matthew 22:37-40 " He said to him,* “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39k The second is like it:* You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
(Bold is mine). But that means not equal to but like it.

Would you really tell yourself that you could rest? Even if your children are not there?

I accept their choice. In heaven we are perfectly incorporated in Christ as CCC#1026 says. Actually the whole sections on Heaven, Purgatory and Hell are worthwhile reading.

The Saints prayed for all sinners so that none would end up in hell. - That God would open their eyes and touch their souls in such a way (the grace of repentance) that they would turn away from their sins and return to God.

CCC#1045

And Peter Kreeft Fourteen Questions About Heaven under #6 Will we feel sorrow in heaven for those in hell? addresses this issue.

 

[LittleFlower378]

Not a particular person, but we must believe that there are people in hell.

 

[thistle]

Catholics are free to believe that all will be saved in the end.

That is Universalism which is a heresy and condemned by the Church. Catholics may not believe that everyone will be saved in the end.

 

[CRV]

Is the person therefore suffering in hell?

Yes.

then I contend that he did NOT get what he wanted since he did not want punishment and suffering.

Whilst he did not want punishment and suffering as such, it is the consequence of the choices made during life. The prison example - he committed the crime, he doesn’t want to go to prison but justice sends him there. Whilst there he is suffering because he has lost his freedom, has restricted contact with loved ones and more. Don’t forget the natural law written on everyones heart- knowing what is right and wrong. There are consequences to all acts - good or bad.

since the person does not know what he is missing,

But he does know! He saw God at his particular judgement and thus results the knowledge of what he lost. #1378 -1380 Baltimore Catechsim, but reading further may help as well.

THE DIALOGUE OF ST CATHERINE OF SIENA "22. Of the four principal torments of the damned, from which follow all the others; and particularly of the foulness of the Devil. "

Catholic Encyclopedia on Hell - This subject is treated under eight headings:

Name and Place of Hell
Existence of Hell
Eternity of Hell
Impenitence of the Damned
Poena Damni
Poena Sensus
Accidental Pains of the Damned
Characteristics of the Pains of Hell

 

[Magnanimity]

Thank you for your dialogue @CRV. I can tell that you have a big heart. If possible, I only pray that it grows ever bigger!

Peace be with you (and yours).

 

[CRV]

Thank you for your kindness @Magnanimity, I’ve read many of your threads. May our good Lord bless you and keep you. Peace be with you.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Thank you for the information. OK, as you have made it clear, the person does suffer and does know what (Whom) he is missing. I am still not entirely convinced that he got what he wanted. He may have gotten the consequences which he deserved (as does the criminal), but what he WANTED? I’m not so sure about that, unless the word “want” is used in a special way here as in he reaped what he has sown. In that case, the choice is not so much one of eternal suffering and damnation but rather rejection of Gd, which, to my mind, is not the same. He would probably have rather gotten away with his bad behavior than suffer such tremendous consequences.

 

[Emeraldlady]

TMC:

Catholics are free to believe that all will be saved in the end.

That is Universalism which is a heresy and condemned by the Church. Catholics may not believe that everyone will be saved in the end.

But we are free to hope in the salvation of all. Cardinal Hans Urs von Balthasar in his book Dare We Hope “That All Men Be Saved”? defines the truth of Christs final judgement of souls but also allows for the possibilities that we are yet to know about that judgement and His mercy.

Some people need to have that hope that all will be saved for their faith to grow.

 

[CRV]

what he WANTED

includes anything that is preferred to God/ that is not God Himself.

he reaped what he has sown.

that is true, indeed he has. Committed evil, reaps the consequences.

rejection of Gd,

yes, the absence of God is the first torment of hell.

which, to my mind, is not the same.

rejection of God is the choice in favour of/preference of a lessor good to the ultimate good which is God.

He would probably have rather gotten away with his bad behavior rather than suffer such tremendous consequences.

True, as do criminals in this life.