Male involvement in the Church

[MaximusBBS]

Ill tell you that if they incorporated some sort of biblical education things would get more interesting. I have yet to meet a KofC knight in my area who has ever even read the Bible once.

The other thing, is if they let the younger members have swords and training on swordplay. I’d be first in line to sign up. Like an adult boy scouts!

Of course I was kidding but think about it. It would involve a physical sporting activity that men like and who knows, we may very well need a trained body to protect the Mass in the near future…

OP: this is the issue you should take from this. Not that KofC is bad, (it isnt) but male involvement in the Church is something that needs to be addressed and I dont think kofc is positioned to be able to address it. It is a relic of a time past, and we need leaders for the future.

Brother Knight,
The Fraternity/Council is what we put into it. The Council I started with is aging and has very few community service type projects so I volunteered to head up that committee. Turns out, even though we talk about the need to get out in force to help at various functions, the same 5 or 6 turn up. I’m busy starting up a new Council and this group of men seem more action oriented so I’m hopeful. Still, don’t give up; keep doing what is good for the Order and what honors God and it will all turn out fine.

I have, perhaps, an unusual attitude toward this, particularly Hoosier Daddy… I see this stagnation and think “how can I help turn this around” rather than just look and say “not for me”. Maybe it’s my personality… I’m an engineer after all, so most of my training and experience involves identifying, analyzing and correcting problems.

You bring up two excellent points and both I agree with 100%. This group is called the KNIGHTS of Columbus… Yet, some of the councils (mine, and it sounds like yours) seem ill prepared for battle (spiritual and/or physical). Of the meetings I’ve been to (note, I’ve only been to “open” meetings as there hasn’t been a meeting since I officially joined), the only spiritual/scriptural/Christian/Catholic content was the beginning and ending prayers. Why not organize some sort of Bible study, or programs?

On to sword training… You said in jest, but hey why not? As you say I bet a lot more people would be interested if they knew that not only did you get to carry a sword, but you knew how to use it! I also believe in some Parishes (mine included) the KofC are supposed to be responsible for the security of the grounds, especially as it relates to children. I don’t know that many "predators’ will be scared off by a gaggle of overweight elderly men, but what if even 2 or 3 of the council took some sort of martial art class together, as both team building and preparing for the worst?

Just some ideas, and things that I will be bringing up as I mature in our KofC council. Of course the charitable acts and projects around the church are great, but back in my Protestant churches we’d call this “building and grounds committee”. Not the image that comes to mind when you think of capes and swords…

 

[Casilda]

I’m in the KofC but no other available groups appeal to me.

I do attend Exposition and Adoration, on my first visit some busy-body woman came up to me and loudly questioned why I was there, was it for “their” prayer meeting? I resisted the temptation to tell her I was only there to get out of the cold. This group is largely female and they talk loudly and incessantly before and after Exposition just as they do before and after Mass.

We wonder why more men don’t attend!

If Pastors want more men in their churches they absolutely must return the sense of sacredness to the Lord’s house, it isn’t a movie theater where we chat until the show starts. I would also add a personal desire that all the social glad-handing be banned, I don’t care to shake hands with anyone when I’m trying to prepare myself for the sacrifice about to take place nor do I care to run around the aisles wishing everyone I know Peace.

Just this man’s opinion.

There is always a gentleman way on the opposite side of the adoration chapel from the chatty cathy’s when my husband and I enter. He is so relieved to see my husband. We just nod a recognition.

Our priest and deacon quickly recruit incoming men for the men’s group, though not KoC, we also have all young men and boy servers and lector/readers are 50/50. My husband teaches a class outside of the church, and has just joined an apostolate which may take those classes abroad. Sadly, local churches do not seem interested in spiritual or religious formation. I wouldn’t blame the pastors, but who they allow to hold DRE positions.

 

[Elizium23]

Nothing regarding parish finances should be “behind the scenes” There needs to be a full and public accounting if a Church building gets fixed.

This is a problem with the Knights. What you have described is “chore doers” and that is not an adequate men’s program. This “secret” stuff is not only dangerous, but a huge turn off to those of us who wish to have something more than a secret handshake and a wink and a nod.

Accounting is full and public in every necessary matter. My council has raised money to do many good things that the parish would not have otherwise. We obtained big-ticket kitchen equipment, digital projection equipment for the church, a large ciborium for Holy Thursday and then four everyday ciborium for distribution of the Eucharist. We were instrumental in erecting two prominent courtyard shrines, one to St. Joseph the Worker and one to Our Lady. Our breakfasts and dinners have been a source of fundraising and fellowship for the parish for years.

Knights will do what nobody else wants to do. If this means we are “chore doers” in addition to our organized service projects and fundraising and liturgical support, that does not mean the program is inadequate for a parish. Are you not aware that Pope St. John Paul the Great called us the “strong right arm of the Church”? When you sit comfortably at home watching Midnight Mass on Christmas, who do you think paid for that satellite uplink? Who rushed to Asia after the tsunami, or Haiti after the earthquakes, to provide much-needed aid? When you recite the Pledge of Allegiance, who can you thank for inserting “Under God” in that patriotic oath? Knights membership is 1.8 million strong worldwide - does this sound like a rag-tag mob of chore doers?

The secrecy that exists, and that is to say not much at all, is primarily to preserve the impact and import of the ceremonials on our initiated members. If you heard what went on in a degree ceremony beforehand, you would not be as profoundly impacted by the events nor as well-bound together in fraternity with brother Knights. We do not regard business confidentiality as part of the secrecy of the Order. Our meeting proceedings and minutes are simply confidential like any other organization’s is. It is not your business what we do internally if you are not a Knight. Full audits and running accounts are provided to Supreme on a regular basis, and I can assure you that the KofC are a tightly-run ship with strictly enforced bylaws. We have additional oversight from our parish and particularly our Chaplain who is an appointed officer. I can assure you that if a KofC council is run poorly, it is not the fault of the Supreme Council.

I am sorry that you had bad experiences with the Knights, but I would ask you to consider if you are being uncharitable, especially if you have been initiated to some Degree of Knighthood, as a Catholic gentleman you are speaking poorly of good men and a good organization that does its best to aid the Holy Father, priests and religious, and families, in particular, in their mission, and publicly attempting to discourage others from membership based on your own limited experience as a disgruntled Knight, is no way to treat fellow Knights, or even just fellow Catholics.

 

[Havard]

Accounting is full and public in every necessary matter. My council has raised money to do many good things that the parish would not have otherwise. We obtained big-ticket kitchen equipment, digital projection equipment for the church, a large ciborium for Holy Thursday and then four everyday ciborium for distribution of the Eucharist. We were instrumental in erecting two prominent courtyard shrines, one to St. Joseph the Worker and one to Our Lady. Our breakfasts and dinners have been a source of fundraising and fellowship for the parish for years.

Knights will do what nobody else wants to do. If this means we are “chore doers” in addition to our organized service projects and fundraising and liturgical support, that does not mean the program is inadequate for a parish. Are you not aware that Pope St. John Paul the Great called us the “strong right arm of the Church”? When you sit comfortably at home watching Midnight Mass on Christmas, who do you think paid for that satellite uplink? Who rushed to Asia after the tsunami, or Haiti after the earthquakes, to provide much-needed aid? When you recite the Pledge of Allegiance, who can you thank for inserting “Under God” in that patriotic oath? Knights membership is 1.8 million strong worldwide - does this sound like a rag-tag mob of chore doers?

The secrecy that exists, and that is to say not much at all, is primarily to preserve the impact and import of the ceremonials on our initiated members. If you heard what went on in a degree ceremony beforehand, you would not be as profoundly impacted by the events nor as well-bound together in fraternity with brother Knights. We do not regard business confidentiality as part of the secrecy of the Order. Our meeting proceedings and minutes are simply confidential like any other organization’s is. It is not your business what we do internally if you are not a Knight. Full audits and running accounts are provided to Supreme on a regular basis, and I can assure you that the KofC are a tightly-run ship with strictly enforced bylaws. We have additional oversight from our parish and particularly our Chaplain who is an appointed officer. I can assure you that if a KofC council is run poorly, it is not the fault of the Supreme Council.

I am sorry that you had bad experiences with the Knights, but I would ask you to consider if you are being uncharitable, especially if you have been initiated to some Degree of Knighthood, as a Catholic gentleman you are speaking poorly of good men and a good organization that does its best to aid the Holy Father, priests and religious, and families, in particular, in their mission, and publicly attempting to discourage others from membership based on your own limited experience as a disgruntled Knight, is no way to treat fellow Knights, or even just fellow Catholics.

I am a Knight and supporter of the KofC. And I agree with much of what you’ve said in its defense. But it has its strengths and weaknesses, especially from council to council. A lot of councils are purely about socializing and service. If men are looking for a spiritual fellowship group, father’s group, prayer group, or Bible-study, their council’s members may not be keen on those events. Which is completely fine, you can always have more than one men’s group in the same parish community.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Accounting is full and public in every necessary matter. My council has raised money to do many good things that the parish would not have otherwise. We obtained big-ticket kitchen equipment, digital projection equipment for the church, a large ciborium for Holy Thursday and then four everyday ciborium for distribution of the Eucharist. We were instrumental in erecting two prominent courtyard shrines, one to St. Joseph the Worker and one to Our Lady. Our breakfasts and dinners have been a source of fundraising and fellowship for the parish for years.

Knights will do what nobody else wants to do. If this means we are “chore doers” in addition to our organized service projects and fundraising and liturgical support, that does not mean the program is inadequate for a parish. Are you not aware that Pope St. John Paul the Great called us the “strong right arm of the Church”? When you sit comfortably at home watching Midnight Mass on Christmas, who do you think paid for that satellite uplink? Who rushed to Asia after the tsunami, or Haiti after the earthquakes, to provide much-needed aid? When you recite the Pledge of Allegiance, who can you thank for inserting “Under God” in that patriotic oath? Knights membership is 1.8 million strong worldwide - does this sound like a rag-tag mob of chore doers?

The secrecy that exists, and that is to say not much at all, is primarily to preserve the impact and import of the ceremonials on our initiated members. If you heard what went on in a degree ceremony beforehand, you would not be as profoundly impacted by the events nor as well-bound together in fraternity with brother Knights. We do not regard business confidentiality as part of the secrecy of the Order. Our meeting proceedings and minutes are simply confidential like any other organization’s is. It is not your business what we do internally if you are not a Knight. Full audits and running accounts are provided to Supreme on a regular basis, and I can assure you that the KofC are a tightly-run ship with strictly enforced bylaws. We have additional oversight from our parish and particularly our Chaplain who is an appointed officer. I can assure you that if a KofC council is run poorly, it is not the fault of the Supreme Council.

I am sorry that you had bad experiences with the Knights, but I would ask you to consider if you are being uncharitable, especially if you have been initiated to some Degree of Knighthood, as a Catholic gentleman you are speaking poorly of good men and a good organization that does its best to aid the Holy Father, priests and religious, and families, in particular, in their mission, and publicly attempting to discourage others from membership based on your own limited experience as a disgruntled Knight, is no way to treat fellow Knights, or even just fellow Catholics.

It is not uncharitable at all. I have stated in this thread that the knights are a legitimate group that does good things. But as you can see from other posts that does not serve the needs of all men. That is probably not even it’s goal.

I do think that members of kofc would do well to listen to the objections and suggestions from others instead of getting defensive. MaximusBBS did an excellent job of responding and it is knights like him that will help the kofc stay/become relevant.

 

[Elizium23]

I am a Knight and supporter of the KofC. And I agree with much of what you’ve said in its defense. But it has its strengths and weaknesses, especially from council to council. A lot of councils are purely about socializing and service. If men are looking for a spiritual fellowship group, father’s group, prayer group, or Bible-study, their council’s members may not be keen on those events. Which is completely fine, you can always have more than one men’s group in the same parish community.

It is true that spiritual activity is not a central focus of the Order. If by “socializing and service” you mean “fraternity and charity” then yes, those are two of the four charisms we strive to uphold, alongside unity and patriotism. My council begins each business meeting with a rosary, and we attend Mass at Corporate Communions and Patriotic Degree callouts. This is some of the religious/spiritual activity that goes on. But you are right, we are not a prayer group or Bible study and we don’t purport to fill a man’s every need. However, I don’t perceive this as a weakness. Our faith permeates the service we perform and infuses it with charity. We are not contemplative nuns but we are men of action! It may be hard to see the spirituality in raising money to buy a fryer for the kitchen, but I can assure you that it is strong. Faith without works is dead.

I suppose that an ideal parish could sustain more than one men’s group, but I have seen it fail miserably in practice. Our neighboring parish had a KofC council already in place, and began an independent Men’s Group, which became the pet group of the pastor, and he promoted it to the detriment of the KofC. As a result, the council struggles mightily.

Men’s activities with less perceived overlap would fare better, I believe. A men’s schola would be a great thing to start! We had a music director at our parish who spoke of founding a Knights’ Choir but it never happened. Our parish has male-only altar servers, and that has been a good step forward. Our numbers actually increased after that change was made.

 

[MaximusBBS]

I am a Knight and supporter of the KofC. And I agree with much of what you’ve said in its defense. But it has its strengths and weaknesses, especially from council to council. A lot of councils are purely about socializing and service. If men are looking for a spiritual fellowship group, father’s group, prayer group, or Bible-study, their council’s members may not be keen on those events. Which is completely fine, you can always have more than one men’s group in the same parish community.

I agree and disagree with your statement here… it depends on the size and demographic of the Parish.

At our parish, KofC is the only “Men’s” group… we also only have one “Women’s” group, “Our Lady’s Guild”.

On a regular basis I see maybe 3 other men at a similar stage in life to me (late 20’s early 30’s, with young children) and of those 3, one is already a 4th degree Knight, the other 2 I have only ever seen at Mass.

That said, our Parish has a very broad demographic, it’s just pretty small… so small in fact that we are told that if/when our pastor retires (we have only one priest) it is unlikely that he will be replaced and our Parish will probably merge with another. I think if we had 2 or 3 men’s groups it would just spread everything too thin.

Already the groups we have seem to step on each others toes regarding fundraising…

our KofC council is so small and mature (maybe 10-15 regular attendees) that basically everyone who is eligible to be Grand Knight already has been…

It’s also small enough that I think 2-3 visionaries could alter its course pretty quickly, heck they’ve already drafted me to an officer position “pending” my 3rd degree.

 

[on_the_hill]

Hola amigos. I have a few questions for everyone:

1. If you’re a man, how are you involved in your parish and local Catholic community?

I go to church on Sunday, some other services, and hang out there when the kids are at CCD. Clearly, not enough.

1. In addition to Mass attendance (bare minimum), what particular ministries or Catholic groups/organizations would you like to see more male involvement in?

I don’t know

1. Expanding on the above, what opportunities for men are simply lacking in your area? Do you have any ideas for new ministries?

There are plenty of opportunities at our parish

1. Do you have any suggestions for improving the male-oriented groups that currently exist (parish men’s clubs, KofC, etc.)
2. Do you have any suggestions for encouraging or motivating men to get involved?
3. Please add any other points that you think are helpful to this topic.

These are interesting questions. Our local KofC is recruiting, and my wife is encouraging me to join. I’m simply not interested. I know they do a lot of good work, but I’m afraid it will be guys who are mostly older than I, who’ve known each other a really long time, and I’ve never really gelled with a lot of the guys around here.

 

[StudentMI]

It is not uncharitable at all. I have stated in this thread that the knights are a legitimate group that does good things. But as you can see from other posts that does not serve the needs of all men. That is probably not even it’s goal.

I do think that members of kofc would do well to listen to the objections and suggestions from others instead of getting defensive. MaximusBBS did an excellent job of responding and it is knights like him that will help the kofc stay/become relevant.

I agree entirely. My own misgivings were stated on the first page of this thread. I remember when I voiced my view of the Knights to a fellow Knight and his wife (in a very subdued way), both of whom are heavily involved, the Knight agreed but his wife began to scold me and even criticized the St. Vincent de Paul Society which she knew I was involved in, saying the Knights were better at helping others.

 

[808Catholic]

Nothing regarding parish finances should be “behind the scenes” There needs to be a full and public accounting if a Church building gets fixed.

This is a problem with the Knights. What you have described is “chore doers” and that is not an adequate men’s program. This “secret” stuff is not only dangerous, but a huge turn off to those of us who wish to have something more than a secret handshake and a wink and a nod.

There are many ways to start a Catholic mens group in a parish. Knights of Columbus is just one of them. Please do more research into what Knights do for the church; our leader just met with Pope Francis and turned over a large check that the Holy Father can use for many ministries and programs. We do this every year in addition to all the “chores” we take on every Saturday/Sunday and service projects we volunteer for throughout the year.

 

[Elizium23]

Nothing regarding parish finances should be “behind the scenes” There needs to be a full and public accounting if a Church building gets fixed.

This is a problem with the Knights. What you have described is “chore doers” and that is not an adequate men’s program. This “secret” stuff is not only dangerous, but a huge turn off to those of us who wish to have something more than a secret handshake and a wink and a nod.

I have bolded the offensive portions of your very uncharitable post. You have gone above and beyond discouraging membership, you are guilty of detraction of a good Order. I am not merely defensive here, I am angered. I have listened to your objections and you may have some good points about your local council and the way things can be run sometimes, but you absolutely lose credibility when you sling mud like this kind of stuff.

 

[808Catholic]

on_the_hill:
If you find yourself wanting more contemporary male fellowship in the Knights of Columbus, recruit your friends or those that are closer in age and experience. There is no known regulation in the Order that says we must all be older than 60 years of age (though a member must be 18 years old to join.) To make it more relevant, take action and lead so there’s movement in the areas and direction you are interested in. God Bless you.

 

[on_the_hill]

After reading this thread and others that address similar topics, i.e. dwindling or low involvement of lay men in Catholicism, I’m starting to see it from a different perspective.

Guys–get it together. If you’re not in church it’s your failing, not the Church’s. (I realize I’m preaching to the choir here )

That men are put off by the “feminization” of the Mass is a pretty lame excuse. That there’s not enough strict teaching, that Catholicism isn’t “hard” enough or “demanding” enough, that it’s lost its luster for men because it lost its edge are pretty lame excuses. The Mass is not intended to conform to you. You are expected to conform to it.

This isn’t about you. It is about Him.

So quit belly-achin’ and do it.

 

[StudentMI]

After reading this thread and others that address similar topics, i.e. dwindling or low involvement of lay men in Catholicism, I’m starting to see it from a different perspective.

Guys–get it together. If you’re not in church it’s your failing, not the Church’s. (I realize I’m preaching to the choir here )

That men are put off by the “feminization” of the Mass is a pretty lame excuse. That there’s not enough strict teaching, that Catholicism isn’t “hard” enough or “demanding” enough, that it’s lost its luster for men because it lost its edge are pretty lame excuses. The Mass is not intended to conform to you. You are expected to conform to it.

This isn’t about you. It is about Him.

So quit belly-achin’ and do it.

Since I was the one who used the term ‘feminized’, I’m going to respond. Not in anger though as I agree with what you said.

I’m not saying the Mass is feminized at my parish, but from my perspective what I said about our parish activities stands. Others from my parish may disagree, some may agree, but that’s how I see it, and I acknowledge I could be wrong. The problem there is also that trying to make a change is such an uphill battle. I was encouraged – by the same wife of the Knight who scolded me – to join the parish council so I could at least put in my two cents. I’m not sure if I will or not as work is demanding and I’m planning on going back to school soon.

I just think that guys are more attracted to certain activities than others, and at my parish it’s not really conducive to heavy male involvement because men are men.

 

[808Catholic]

After reading this thread and others that address similar topics, i.e. dwindling or low involvement of lay men in Catholicism, I’m starting to see it from a different perspective.

Guys–get it together. If you’re not in church it’s your failing, not the Church’s. (I realize I’m preaching to the choir here )

That men are put off by the “feminization” of the Mass is a pretty lame excuse. That there’s not enough strict teaching, that Catholicism isn’t “hard” enough or “demanding” enough, that it’s lost its luster for men because it lost its edge are pretty lame excuses. The Mass is not intended to conform to you. You are expected to conform to it.

This isn’t about you. It is about Him.

So quit belly-achin’ and do it.

Amen! Preach it, brother!

 

[pnewton]

I guess I am blessed by having a parish with so much male involvement. Part of the reason is that we have a large percentage of poor immigrant who can give little money, so they make up what they do not give in money by giving in time. We have done wonders thanks to the volunteer men who do a lot of the construction and maintenance.

We also have a good Knights group. I think this is very important in regard to raising the younger generation of boys to grow up to be men that take responsibility for more than the bare minimum in life. The role model of men working and serving will teach more than words will.

Oh, and as to Knights that aren’t familiar with the Bible, I think stereotypes do little good. Any group is going to have a diversity of talents and experiences, but for the record, I have read the Bible through several times in my life. Last year starting in Lent was the last time.

 

[on_the_hill]

Since I was the one who used the term ‘feminized’,

No prob–I wasn’t referring to your post actually. Feminization comes up a lot at CAF. Probably almost as much as homosexuality.

 

[sailor28]

Hola amigos. I have a few questions for everyone:

1. If you’re a woman, how are the men in your life involved?

My husband and I lead a marriage group. It is a great way to serve together and help get couples connected, especially men. Men have a harder time forming friendships and make close, supportive connections. Many men I know are the providers and don’t have many, if any, connections aside form their wives.

1. In addition to Mass attendance (bare minimum), what particular ministries or Catholic groups/organizations would you like to see more male involvement in?

Teaching CCD. Although, my husband has taught confirmation.

1. Expanding on the above, what opportunities for men are simply lacking in your area? Do you have any ideas for new ministries?

An opportunity for men to just get together and connect is missing. My husband would definitely not join the KofC. They do wonderful charitable work. But the secrecy, the formality, lack of young members and the feather caps and the lack of real connections are of no interest to him. (This is the experience here. I know this does not represent everyone’s experience)

My husband has done ministries like That Man is You at 6am before work. However, he works his tail off. He needs to have a place of rest. A simple get together with pizza and beer and some good discussion/prayer/scripture would do it. It would also help to draw the men who may not have had a deep faith experience. I would consider it a gateway ministry. Not every ministry has to serve the purpose of full catechesis.

1. Do you have any suggestions for improving the male-oriented groups that currently exist (parish men’s clubs, KofC, etc.)

Get with the times and learn more about how men want to connect and what they need.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I was thinking back to an old parish I used to attend that had a “men’s group” that met on a weekday morning at 6AM. This was well attended and was diverse. We almost always discussed doctrine or scripture and how to apply it to our lives and jobs. This was also coupled with “E5 Men” which is a group based on Ephesians 5 and laying your life down for your wife. It was geared to married men but every Wednesday we would meet for daily Mass and then afterward Father would lead us in devotions and prayers about our families.

These two groups were very well attended by a variety of Men in a variety of ways. We did almost no charity work or fundraising, but what we learned for our selves and our families I have to believe changed lives.

Surprisingly the 6 AM time worked well as most men worked during the day. Not everyone would make it every week but there was never less than 20 people there a day.

 

[sailor28]

**6) Please add any other points that you think are helpful to this topic.
**

If you are looking to start a ministry or serve the men in your parish I would start with prayer in front of the Eucharist. Keeping praying over a long period of time and ask God to show you what the needs of the parish are. Each parish has a different population of men at a different place on their spiritual journey. Some men will need the 6 am group that goes through rigorous teaching and devotion or the Friday night group that meets for adoration and the rosary. Others may need something more light hearted like a get together on Friday nights for pizza, beer and a meaningful discussion where they can share what is going on in their lives, their burdens and where they are finding God in the midst of all of it.

The key is being sensitive to the work of the Holy Spirit in your own community. Some ministries may be for the men who already have a deep commitment to their faith. Other ministries may be to draw men who are on the margins of the Church and have not yet had that deeper experience of God.

One thing is for sure…there is a need for men to be able to connect with men.