Male modesty?

[Kindness]

Flyingfish we’re probably drifting off topic as usual but I think Alpha Males could also be culturally determined. My BIL who is American made the comment to me once that when they really want “a man” in US movies they often draft in an Alpha Male from another culture. I personally think that the European Alpha Male often has a different sexuality than an American. American Alpha Males in the media are either seen to be the physical loner who saves the world single handed a la the Bruce Willis stereotype or an eternal teenager. The only universal Alpha Male who is attractive world over is maybe George Clooney or Will Smith.

In Europe we like the more smoldering sensual male; Antonio Banderas or Jude Law. Jude Law is not an Alpha Male in an American sense but he’s irresistable for many a European woman.

The Alpha Male things is probably a red-herring anyway, by definition most women are not going to be involved or married to one.

Getting back to modesty, all cultures have a code of modesty although it changes over time so why is modesty important? What does modesty convey? It seems to me that modesty is a sign of maturity and at least an understanding of the codes and taboos of a society.

 

[Havard]

From the Seinfeld perspective, Puddy was the recurring Alpha, but Elaine wouldn’t hang onto him because he was too religious (Catholic), among other things. None of the rest of the men in the series were Alphas, except perhaps Mr. Peterman, but then he was also insane.

 

[Kindness]

Well for Beta Males George and Jerry certainly had their share of girlfriends.

 

[flyingfish]

Flyingfish we’re probably drifting off topic as usual but I think Alpha Males could also be culturally determined.

Maybe we are using the term a bit differently? I was thinking more of men with facial and physical features that suggest high testosterone levels like a strong jaw, prominent brow, thinner lips (and a more feminine face has a weaker chin, larger lips, larger eyes, more fat). I guess the higher testosterone might also make a guy more likely to physically dominate, sleep around and the like?

I guess you can tell how tempted I am by these guys haha, I even derail my own thread to talk about them.

 

[Kindness]

Now I’m back in Europe I am amazed to see the continued popularity of Speedos over here. I would be grateful for a bit more coverage to be honest…

 

[Havard]

Well for Beta Males George and Jerry certainly had their share of girlfriends.

That they did! Although the finale suggests that all four of them (Elaine, George, Jerry and Kramer) ended up alone because of their shallowness and general lack of compassion toward other human beings.

 

[Havard]

Now I’m back in Europe I am amazed to see the continued popularity of Speedos over here. I would be grateful for a bit more coverage to be honest…

It’s all about boardshorts and rash guards. (Btw, that’s world-reknowned surfer, Kelly Slater, not me .)

 

[momor]

Question, do they dress this way out of consideration of modesty and not being sexually attractive to women?

I don’t know the reason for their modesty.

 

[Kindness]

This summary of Muslim modesty is from About.com

It is quite long but I think it’s all interesting and everything seemed relevant to our discussion.

Source of Rulings on Islamic Dress:
Islam gives guidance about all aspects of life, including matters of public decency. Islam has no fixed standard as to the style of dress or type of clothing that Muslims must wear. However, some minimum requirements must be met.
Islam has two sources for guidance and rulings: the Qur’an which is considered to be the revealed word of Allah, and the Hadith or traditions of the Prophet Muhammad, who serves as a human role model and guide.

1st Requirement: What parts of the body are to be covered:
The first bit of guidance given in Islam describes the parts of the body which must be covered in public.
For women: In general, standards of modesty call for a woman to cover her body, particularly her chest. The Qur’an calls for women to “draw their coverings over their chests,” and the Prophet Muhammad instructed believing women to cover their bodies except for their face and hands. Most Muslims interpret this to require headcoverings for women. Some Muslim women cover the entire body, including the face and/or hands.

For men: The minimum amount to be covered is between the navel and the knee.

2nd Requirement: Looseness:
Islam also guides that clothing must be loose enough so as not to outline or distinguish the shape of the body. Skin-tight, body-hugging clothes are out, for both men and women. When in public, some women wear a cloak over their personal clothing as a convenient way to “hide their curves.” In many predominantly Muslim countries, men’s traditional dress is somewhat like a loose robe, covering from the neck to the ankles.

3rd Requirement: Thickness:
The Prophet Muhammad once warned that in later generations, there would be people “who are dressed yet naked.” See-through clothing is not modest, for either men or women. The clothing must be thick enough so that the color of the skin it covers is not visible, nor the shape of the body underneath.

4th Requirement: Overall appearance:
The overall appearance of a person should be dignified and modest. Shiny, flashy clothing may technically meet the above requirements, but defeat the purpose of overall modesty.

5th Requirement: Not imitating others:
Islam encourages people to be proud of who they are. Muslims should look like Muslims, and not like mere imitations of people of other faiths around them. Women should be proud of their femininity and not dress like men. And men should be proud of their masculinity and not try to imitate women in their dress. For this reason, Muslim men are forbidden from wearing gold or silk, as these are considered feminine accessories.

6th Requirement: Decent but not flashy:
The Qur’an describes that clothing is meant to cover our private areas, and be an adornment (Qur’an 7:26). Clothing worn by Muslims should be clean and decent, neither excessively fancy nor ragged. One should not dress in order to gain the admiration or sympathy of others.

Beyond the Clothing: Behaviors and Manners:
Islamic clothing is but one aspect of modesty. More importantly, one must be modest in behavior, manners, speech and appearance in public. Dress is only one aspect of the total being, and merely reflects what is present on the inside of a person’s heart.
Is Islamic clothing restrictive?:
Dress requirements are not meant to be restrictive for either men or women, and most Muslims who wear modest dress do not find it impractical. Many people continue with their activities in all levels and walks of life.

 

[Kindness]

It’s all about boardshorts and rash guards. (Btw, that’s world-reknowned surfer, Kelly Slater, not me .)

Yep, that looks just like what my cute American hubby wore on the European beaches this summer. As I mentioned in another thread we were the most covered family on the beach this summer! Our fair skinned kids had rash guards and with me in my one piece we suddenly became 'the modest family" a bit weird actually…!

 

[flyingfish]

Dress requirements are not meant to be restrictive for either men or women, and most Muslims who wear modest dress do not find it impractical. Many people continue with their activities in all levels and walks of life.

To me this sounds like something written by a Muslim to promote their view of dress code.

There is no way I can believe that Muslim women living in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, or places in Africa do not find it extremely uncomfortable and even dangerous to be fully covered. Can you imagine wearing a fully body burka in 100 degree weather? That just invites heatstroke in my opinion.

The idea that “most… do not find it impractical” is hard to believe.

 

[jomich]

It’s all about boardshorts and rash guards. (Btw, that’s world-reknowned surfer, Kelly Slater, not me .)

Speedos were originally intended to be a SWIM suit, not for just sitting around the pool. As a swim suit they are excellent and shave seconds off your lap time. The latest ‘Speedos’ seen at the last Olympics cover the body from neck almost to the feet and are incredibly fast. Remember Phelps?
The Lycra bicycle shorts worn by serious cyclists are even more vulgar and frequently seen in places they shouldn’t be. They are fine for the sport, but anywhere else…please.

 

[jomich]

To me this sounds like something written by a Muslim to promote their view of dress code.

There is no way I can believe that Muslim women living in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, or places in Africa do not find it extremely uncomfortable and even dangerous to be fully covered. Can you imagine wearing a fully body burka in 100 degree weather? That just invites heatstroke in my opinion.

The idea that “most… do not find it impractical” is hard to believe.

And for Heavens sake, why are they (more often than not) black? I feel so sorry for them, that can’t be healthy.

 

[chevalier]

I see you’re taking it out on others.

I don’t know how the majority of men think, but when they see a women scantily clad, do they tend to think immoral thoughts? Not just, “Oh, she’s attractive” but more inappropriate thoughts?

It’s normally not an absolute compulsion but it can be a very strong temptation in case of some men. In case of some others, it may invoke an involuntary reaction.

The intent to invoke irresistible temptation to fornication (physically manifested or mental alone) or to elicit a corresponding involuntary reaction in a person deprived of control (or intent to take away that control and obtain said result), would be morally problematic and I can’t imagine it not being grave matter. Exposing others to real temptations for shallow reasons without directly intending aforementioned results is morally problematic too. This all concerns both sexes.

Like one other female poster posted, I do appreciate a nice male chest. But it doesn’t cause me to lust or to think inappropriate thoughts. I’d just be inclined to think it’s an attractive male, which is a fact, nothing more.

Although this obviously isn’t the case for all women. But I wonder if it’s just that most men struggle more? I have no idea.

Some men will be able to think the same, some not, but there’s the difference Havard mentioned–chests aren’t the same to both sexes. Female chests by design being secondary sexual organs while male aren’t makes things objectively different, not just subjectively different in the sense that males per se would be less resistant to temptation, but the level of temptation is objectively different on its own account.

If you compare, say, legs to legs or palms to palms, then you can claim the one sex is weaker than the other (my guess from experience being that palms work better on women, legs on men, whatever mating-related cause this relates to).

But then, I don’t like men speedos. I think those are immodest. I’d prefer board shorts type swimwear.

Some immodest stuff can be offputting rather than attractive, true.

For example women rarely care if their male spouse has had previous sexual relationships, or at the very least if they do care it tends to be from an insecurity/self confidence “was she better than I” point of view.

Not so sure about the former from what I’ve read here at CAF. I suppose the latter (insecurity as to whether one measures up) applies to both sexes.

A sexually attractive man going around without his shirt on can’t be expected to “know” what kind of an effect he is having on the women who can see him. The women are expected to control themselves, and behave politely to him, or else ignore him completely.

I’m sure a male chest alone doesn’t beat certain things that are considered of the norm socially with women, including cleavage, belly lines, form-fitting clothes and the like. In fact, some of the stuff squarely beats a woman in a bikini not specifically designed to arouse and certainly beats a nude Greek sculpture.

Furthermore, she is expected to take the blame for “causing” her colleague to pinch her on the bottom, because of something she said, did, or wore.

Naah, it’s the guy’s fault what he did. Her fault for tempting him is not automatically nonexistent, though.

Women always have a God-given responsibility to help the men by covering up more, but the reverse issue is never addressed. Like we weren’t made with hormones to?

I say to the men, for the sake of our raging hormones, cover up. Don’t go around public w/out a shirt. Don’t wear skin tight shirts, pants or short shorts. Don’t wear sagging pants that show your boxers. Please show us the respect that you EXPECT us to automatically show you. We’re human too. It’s too much of a temptation for you to dress like you do so stop it already.

I agree. Oh, I remember reading a 19th century book where a priest made a woman look the other way round when there was a bare-chested guy. I guess the issue developed from *freedom to keep looking *too, at least to some extent. While men were expected to look the other way round, it was less strict for women normally. Not having the option to tell female spectators to go away can be quite frustrating.

I’ve read that when we are ovulating we are attracted to men with masculine features, which would suggest those are the men we want to be having sex with when we can get pregnant.

At other times of the cycle we prefer more “feminine” men, which would imply we might want to marry a committed, devoted man, but carry the offspring of the powerful alpha male with the best genes.

I’ve heard that too and read about surveys confirm it. I don’t think there’s any controversy in science regarding this but I wouldn’t know for sure. By the way, I don’t think there’s a necessary link between committed and devoted and feminine-looking, whereas it was the latter that seemed to attract women in the survey I read about. Only looks were compared anyway, but that in turn means all data came from the looks or their interpretation.

Maybe it’s not so surprising that men are preoccupied with controlling women’s sexuality. The non-alpha males would want to avoid having to put in resources to the alpha male’s child, so they try to hide their woman.

To be honest, I once had an uncertainty fit because of that. I basically doubted the point… but we’re all called to holiness and behaviours are not predetermined. I obviously hope I won’t be attractive only half of the time after marrying, but conscious decisions and efforts do count more.

 

[chevalier]

Male modesty can definitely be violated by choice of clothing, but perhaps we need to investigate whether it is more often violated by action and speech. Men seem to be much more into crude gestures and language than women are. When men do these sorts of things in front of women, I would suspect that it is a temptation against modesty for women.

I don’t mean to downplay the issue of male modesty and modesty in dress. Modesty in dress code seems to be one aspect of modesty in general. Perhaps-- and this is just a suggestion for investigation-- we may find that men and women are typically tempted more by one area of immodesty, and typically are guilty of a different form of immodesty.

Thoughts?

Agreed on the final aspect. There are different areas of immodesty posing different problems to each sex, but I wouldn’t know of any sex having it worse than the other considering all factors (though the notorious male visual “problem” probably doesn’t have a comparably general equivalent in women).

To me this sounds like something written by a Muslim to promote their view of dress code.

There is no way I can believe that Muslim women living in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, or places in Africa do not find it extremely uncomfortable and even dangerous to be fully covered. Can you imagine wearing a fully body burka in 100 degree weather? That just invites heatstroke in my opinion.

The idea that “most… do not find it impractical” is hard to believe.

Uncovering the body actually is not the best answer to heat. Isolation from heat works better and some clothing is able to fulfil that function. In the Muslim countries you mention, the traditional dress for men indeed involves a lot of flowing robes.

I don’t know, probably depends on the woman. I have a complete weakness for alpha males, I find them to be incredibly attractive. I also find it very attractive to watch them dominate other males, and the better they are able to decimate the other males in physical competition the more attractive they seem.

Be careful with that or you might end up with a guy you wouldn’t like to have after all. Winning in physical competitions is one thing, winning elections/getting appointed to positions of authority is another, actually dominating (breaking the opposition forcibly, ruling tyrannically etc.) is yet another. A guy with a propensity for getting what he wants despite opposition can turn against you.

I think it might be pretty common, take for instance the entertainment industries. The male leads have strong masculine, alpha-male features. This probably appeals to men and women alike. Can you think of any “sexiest guy” who didn’t have the alpha male look?

Emo looks do seem to work on women.

Maybe we are using the term a bit differently? I was thinking more of men with facial and physical features that suggest high testosterone levels like a strong jaw, prominent brow, thinner lips (and a more feminine face has a weaker chin, larger lips, larger eyes, more fat). I guess the higher testosterone might also make a guy more likely to physically dominate, sleep around and the like?

More likely in a statistical sense maybe, but we don’t know that. Probably more testosterone should mean higher sex drive and thus bigger temptation but then it could (alternatively or additionally) mean greater willpower to resist temptations. Watch how a guy acts, not how much of which hormone he has in him. Find your good warrior, avoid falling for the bad brigand.

 

[Kindness]

Following our Beta thread about Alpha Males from what little I have read when an Alpha dies a Beta rises up to become the Alpha. Therefore although Alphas may have certain physical characteristics that are very masculine surely to rise through the social ranks that will not be enough. You need intelligence and other qualities depending on the situation to claim the Alpha spot. Wouldn’t that mean that the ability to attain the Alpha spot(s) is a mixture of genes and culture? We all know brawny men who don’t have the other attributes to be an Alpha. Also some men may not be as physically dominant but their other qualites are strong enough to overcome that. We are complex social beings and I don’t think how men (or women) become socially dominant can be predicated or preordained.

In the past there was the belief in the Divine Right Of Kings where a man was King because God willed it. But plenty of men born to be king and groomed from birth were horrible, weak and unsuccessful rulers. Everyone believed you were the Alpha male, you were conditioned to believe it was your right to rule and yet you still didn’t have what it takes. So social dominance appears complex to me and not to be summed up in sound bites.

You may now return to your Alpha thread .

 

[chevalier]

Also some men may not be as physically dominant but their other qualites are strong enough to overcome that.

Yes. They are called lawyers.

 

[Kindness]

Yes. They are called lawyers.

Chev!

This officially gives me an excuse to reveal my major long time crush before I settled for my tall, wholesome American husband.

Bob Hoskins - if you don’t know who he is, he is a short British actor who usually plays gangsters, and other dodgy characters . He must be getting on a bit now but for much of my teens and twenties he was my perfect man.

“He was slated to be a last-minute replacement in the film The Untouchables if star Robert De Niro had not decided to play Al Capone. When De Niro took the part, director Brian De Palma mailed Hoskins a cheque for £20,000 with a Thank You note, which prompted Hoskins to call up De Palma and ask him if there were any more movies he didn’t want him to be in.”

 

[whatevergirl]

*Hmmm…interesting thread. When I think of male modesty…I don’t only think of a man bearing his chest on the beach for example, although, I understand everyone’s comments on the physical, and I agree that men owe others the same ‘‘courtesy’’ as we women do, for men. (when it comes to bearing a little too much skin)

Rather, I tend to think of male immodesty, as cat calling, obnoxious vulgar behavior directed at women, reading Playboy, going to strip clubs, and all of that. To me, that is how men display a lack of modesty, by not respecting women in a moral sense. Used to be that when a woman entered the room, a man would curb his language, and not tell an off color joke while she was there. Those days are long gone for many. At work for example, there is a guy I have an office near, who feels the need to drop the ‘f’ word in every sentence when he’s telling me about a project he’s working on. I tolerated it for a while, and then finally one day I said…’‘do you have any idea how bad that sounds?’’ He stopped saying it. I’m not a saint, but I’m a woman, and I deserve respect, just like he deserves respect, and I wouldn’t speak to him using that language. Plus, it’s a conservative corporation…save your potty mouth for the bar. (If we only said everything we thought)

It isn’t respect a woman is going for when she dresses seductively to attract men, and it isn’t respect a man is going for when he doesn’t know how to treat and view women. Two way street.

I think there is nothing wrong with noticing a beautiful body, and thinking so in one’s mind…but, to lust after the person, is where one can get into trouble.

I think that both sexes play out immodesty in similiar but also different ways. Just my two cents.*

 

[flyingfish]

Be careful with that or you might end up with a guy you wouldn’t like to have after all. Winning in physical competitions is one thing, winning elections/getting appointed to positions of authority is another, actually dominating (breaking the opposition forcibly, ruling tyrannically etc.) is yet another. A guy with a propensity for getting what he wants despite opposition can turn against you.
…

Emo looks do seem to work on women.

…

More likely in a statistical sense maybe, but we don’t know that. Probably more testosterone should mean higher sex drive and thus bigger temptation but then it could (alternatively or additionally) mean greater willpower to resist temptations. Watch how a guy acts, not how much of which hormone he has in him. Find your good warrior, avoid falling for the bad brigand.

I guess it’s true about emo guys, I should be careful about projecting my own preferences to the female average. There have definitely been plenty of situations where guys other women found very attractive weren’t at all attractive to me.

I’d like to think/hope that I have the intelligence to tell the “good warrior” apart from the “bad brigand.” Good choice of words there

Kindness:

You need intelligence and other qualities depending on the situation to claim the Alpha spot. Wouldn’t that mean that the ability to attain the Alpha spot(s) is a mixture of genes and culture? We all know brawny men who don’t have the other attributes to be an Alpha. Also some men may not be as physically dominant but their other qualites are strong enough to overcome that.

It definitely goes beyond just being “brawny”. It’s really hard to put into words. Some men present as natural leaders, and they are good at leading. They come across as strong, determined, competent, they inspire confidence. They don’t have to give orders, they just present as the competent, strong man who will lead you to victory if you choose to follow.

The physical qualities come into play with sexual attraction. I don’t if a guy who didn’t at least meet some minimum requirements could be an alpha.