Manchester 'explosions': A 'number of fatalities' reported following Ariana Grande concert

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I am weary of sentimentality over riding sense in these cases. Yes, we should stand together, yes we should live our lives. But no amount of poetry in the streets and love hearts and flowers will assuage the pain these things cause, nor will it deal with the causes of these things. I don’t want sentiment when children are ripped apart, I want outrage. I want a strong government that deals with these men and women who threaten us.
 
pnewton said:
While I am always pleased to see the solidarity of the sane world when these attacks happen, I would be a lot happier when I see solidarity of the Muslim world with the whole of humanity and recognizing this evil that bears their name and banner, with the Muslim nations of the world leading the assault against Muslim terrorist states.

Until then, we keep praying for these victims. Might one to throw up a prayer for the mentally ill of the world while we are at it.
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What about the solidarity of Christianity? There’s the Roman Catholic Church and there are the numerous Protestant and Evangelical denominations – compared to only a half-dozen or so Muslim variations, including Sufism. Why isn’t all of Christianity united in solidarity against terrorist attacks committed by Christians, like whenever there’s an abortion clinic shooting?
 
randomuser said:
What about the solidarity of Christianity? There’s the Roman Catholic Church and there are the numerous Protestant and Evangelical denominations – compared to only a half-dozen or so Muslim variations, including Sufism. Why isn’t all of Christianity united in solidarity against terrorist attacks committed by Christians, like whenever there’s an abortion clinic shooting?
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A weak analogy at best
 
I am curious. Is there any form of nationalism that you would find acceptable?
 
You know what’s really sad, this bomber was just a minion, another radicalised youth. There have been three more arrests, his younger brother is one of the arrested. I feel for their mother as much as I do for the victims mothers. She was a refugee from Gaddafi long before all this. Thought she was keeping her kids safe.

The big question is how to stop this radicalisation. It works so well with youth who feel marginalised etc. A 22yo Sudanese refugee woman was just arrested here in Aus after being radicalised.

The psychology going into radicalising youth globally, and maintaining that state in them is quite professional and incomprehensible.
 
I do wish that peaceful Muslims and their clergy would be more outspoken re the issue of terrorism ,it has to be quelled within their community of faith.
 
The multi-cultural insanity of Western Europe, that Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia reject, has already spawned the massive riots in France in 2005, the 2011 riots in the UK, the mass gropings of German women in Koln, the Middle Eastern men brazenly firing guns in public in Berlin on New Years Eve, the Paris terror attack of Nov 2015, Charlie Hebdo, the Nice truck attack, London 7-7, Madrid train bombing, No Go areas in Sweden, France, Belgium, etc, ad nauseam. This is just a portent of the future unless Europe returns to the nation state.
 
Yes,I am aware that Muslms are targets more often than not as well.Fear probably plays a large role in their silence
 
No, it really shouldn’t. It’s not a Muslims against us proposition. There is a significant role for Muslims to play, precisely because they are victims of these monsters as much as anyone.
 
What does that mean though? From our conversations I reasonably concluded that you are not an “Ireland for the Irish” nationalist.
 
I know they do. I have Muslim friends who have spoken out. I was agreeing with you. I honestly think these terrorist creatures are wicked people who prey on the weak of mind, searching desperately for meaning. How often do we hear that the suicide bombers were profligate young men who found a cause in this madness. These are not the devout gentle people I know. They are truly brainwashed by the promise of glory
 
I think the Ariana Grande concert was chosen for no other reason than that security wasn’t too well enforced.
 
Your point about the lack of nuance in understanding is important.

Many of the perpetrators of these acts have had preceding criminal records and not necessarily related to anything terroristic. Their awareness of the orthodox fiqhs, say, of Sunni Islam and the consensus among Hanafi jurists (for instance, given that its the biggest school) on the immunity of non-combatants from harm, may be lacking. Many terrorists lack such religious literacy.

The petty criminality wedded to this poor understanding may help make them susceptible to radical groups like IS who simply reference Qur’anic material such as the ayat in Surah 9: 5 about “slaying the idolaters wheresoever you find them”, out of hand and out of context. Islamic terrorists justify their violent tactics through interpreting the Quran and Hadith according to their own goals and intentions.

When discussing Islamic theology it is important to distinguish between

(1) ‘jihad’ or ‘struggle’ as conceived of in the military sense of a holy war (which is only one of its definitions) and

(2) deliberate, indiscriminate acts of terror targeted towards civilians outside any military context.

The former is part of Islamic theology. It shouldn’t be denied and Islamic scholars need to do a better job of squaring it with modern pluralism. The latter, however, has no legitimacy in orthodox Sunni or Shia Islam. As Professor Bernard Lewis noted:

***"Being a religious obligation, jihad is elaborately regulated in sharia law, *which discusses in minute detail such matters as the opening, conduct, interruption and cessation of hostilities, the treatment of prisoners and noncombatants, the use of weapons, etc.[44] … Similarly, the laws of Jihad categorically preclude wanton and indiscriminate slaughter.[45] The warriors in the holy war are urged not to harm non-combatants, women and children, “unless they attack you first.” … A point on which they insist is the need for a clear declaration of war before beginning hostilities, and for proper warning before resuming hostilities after a truce. What the classical jurists of Islam never remotely considered is the kind of unprovoked, unannounced mass slaughter of uninvolved civil populations that we saw in New York two weeks ago. For this there is no precedent and no authority in Islam".

This cannot be emphasised enough both to non-Muslims and Muslims with only a cursory knowledge of the religion.

Some people desirous (justifiably it has to be said) to fend off scapegoating in the aftermath of these kind of atrocities, err to much on the side of caution and actually aid those doing the scapegoating by denying the place that holy war has in Islamic theology. It cannot and should not be denied because its everywhere in Islamic texts, which makes the scapegoaters jobs easier since they can simply point to it.

But equally, you have those who scapegoat because they are unaware of the nuances of Islamic theology such that they actually think classical Islam condones random, indiscriminate acts of terror against completely innocent civilians. It doesn’t and this cannot be emphasised enough.

(continued…)
 
Consider the following Hadith which illustrates my point, in relation to “jihad” against polytheists (i.e. those who are not 'people of the book’s):
"…It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say:
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Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children.
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When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm… If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya.
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If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands…"
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**Sahih Muslim 19:4294 **
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And this scholarly assessment of the laws of war from Shaikh Burhanuddin Ali of Marghinan (d. 1196), a famous medieval Hanafi jurist:
"…It does not become Muslims to break treaties or to act unfairly with respect to plunder or to disfigure people (by cutting off their ears and noses, and so forth). In the same manner it does not become Muslims to slay women or children, or men aged, bedridden, or blind, because opposition and fighting are the only occasions which make slaughter allowable (according to our doctors), and such persons are incapable of these. For the same reason also the paralytic are not to be slain, nor those who are dismembered of the right hand, or of the right hand and left foot.
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Whence it is evident that mere infidelity (unbelief in Islam) is not a justifiable occasion of slaughter. The Prophet, moreover, forbade the slaying of infants or single persons, and once, when the Prophet saw a woman who was slain, he said, ‘Alas! This woman did not fight, why, therefore, was she slain?’…"
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This is the consensus opinion among classical Islamic jurists.

There was a dissenting opinion among a heretical sect known by mainstream Sunnis as the Kharijites, who did permit the slaying of women and children in war. See:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism
Some Muslim commentators assert that extremism within Islam goes back to the 7th century to the Kharijites. From their essentially political position, they developed extreme doctrines that set them apart from both mainstream Sunni and Shi’a Muslims. The Kharijites were particularly noted for adopting a radical approach of Takfir, whereby they declared other Muslims to be unbelievers and therefore deemed them worthy of death
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en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khawarij
In the modern era, a number of Muslim theologians and observers have compared the beliefs and actions of the Islamic State (IS), al-Qaeda and like-minded groups to the Khawarij.[23][24][25][26][27] In particular, the groups share the Kharijites’ radical approach whereby self-described Muslims are declared unbelievers and therefore deemed them worthy of death and their disinterest in Quranic calls for moderation.[5][6][28] However, IS preachers strongly reject being compared to the Khawarij.[29]
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Catholic News Service:

Pope, English church leaders offer prayers after Manchester Arena attack
5.23.2017

MANCHESTER, England (CNS) – Pope Francis decried the “barbaric attack” on concertgoers in Manchester, adding his voice to Catholic leaders dismayed at what British officials said was the deadliest case of terrorism since 2005.

In a telegram sent to English church officials on Pope Francis’ behalf, Cardinal Pietro Parolin, Vatican secretary of state, said the pope “was deeply saddened to learn of the injury and tragic loss of life” after a suicide bomb killed at least 22 people and injured another 59 at Manchester Arena May 22. Many concertgoers at the Ariana Grande concert were teenagers, young adults and families.

The Islamic State group claimed responsibility for the attack.

The pope “expresses his heartfelt solidarity with all those affected by this senseless act of violence,” the telegram said, as “he commends the generous efforts of the emergency and security personnel and offers the assurance of his prayers for the injured, and for all who have died.”

“Mindful in a particular way of those children and young people who have lost their lives, and of their grieving families, Pope Francis invokes God’s blessings of peace, healing and strength upon the nation.”

In Britain, Cardinal Vincent Nichols of Westminster, president of the Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales, and other Catholic leaders offered prayers for the victims of the attacks and their families.

“My shock and dismay at the horrendous killing of young and innocent people in the Manchester Arena last night is, I know, shared by all people of goodwill,” Cardinal Nichols said in a May 23 statement posted on the Westminster archdiocesan website. "I know, too, that Catholics and many others will be praying earnestly for those who have been killed, for the bereaved and for grieving loved ones.

“We pray in support of all those working so hard in response to this tragedy: the police and security forces, hospital staff, neighbors and friends and for all the people of Manchester. May God, in his mercy, strengthen and sustain us and keep us firmly united in the face of all evil.”

The terrorist attack took place within the Diocese of Salford, which incorporates most of Manchester and much of northwest England.

Bishop John Arnold of Salford offered a lunchtime Mass May 23 at St. Mary’s, a popular city-center church close to Manchester Arena.

In a statement the same day, he said: "The citizens of Manchester and the members of the Catholic community are united in condemning the attack on the crowds at the Manchester Arena.

“Such an attack can have no justification. I thank the emergency services for their prompt and speedy response which saved lives,” he continued. “We join in prayer for all those who have died and for the injured and their families and all affected by this tragedy. We must all commit ourselves to working together, in every way, to help the victims and their families and to build and strengthen our community solidarity.”

Bishop Mark Davies of Shrewsbury, whose diocese covers southern parts of Manchester, wrote to his clergy, urging them to pray for the victims and their families.
“Let us also keep in our prayer the police and emergency services, together with all hospital staff and chaplains,” he said in his letter.

The bishop added: “Together with church and religious leaders in Greater Manchester, I ask the prayers of your parishioners for peace and solidarity in all our communities that the hate which inspires such indiscriminate violence may be overcome by that love which faith and prayer inspires in our hearts. I hope the days ahead, overshadowed by this atrocity, will lead us all to such prayer and active charity.”

Cardinal Daniel N. DiNardo of Galveston-Houston, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, wrote Bishop Arnold to assure him of the prayers of Catholics in the United States.

“Words are not enough to convey the deep shock and sadness with which Catholics and all people of goodwill in the United States learned of the horrible attack which took place yesterday at England’s Manchester Arena,” said his letter, released May 23 in Washington. He mentioned “the unspeakable loss of life, terrible injuries, and untold trauma to families – especially to children.”

“Evil, as dense and dark as it is, never has the last word,” Cardinal DiNardo wrote. “As we prepare to celebrate the new dawn of Pentecost again, may the Easter words of the risen Christ, ‘Peace be with you,’ settle deep into the hearts of the citizens of your great country.”
catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2017/pope-prays-for-victims-of-barbaric-attack-in-manchester.cfm

May God bless us all and those who are no longer here but are in heaven.
 
So the US media and intelligence sources are at it again. Despite complaints from the UK, they continue to leak and report information and compromising the investigation and the hunt for potential suspects. That’s what countries with a ‘special relationship’ do when the terror threat is at critical, compromise investigations.
 
Jeanne_S said:
Yes,I am aware that Muslms are targets more often than not as well.Fear probably plays a large role in their silence
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Then let Iran, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia lead the military coalition to destroy ISIS. If Western involvement is worse, let them take action. Instead of stoning women and children for their immoral actions, let these countries have the guts to take on men that are far more evil. They may despise the West, but they are far more despicable when they commit violence against those who cannot defend themselves and allow evil men to flourish in their midst. This is why I question the resolve of Muslim countries in the region.
 
ATraveller said:
So the US media and intelligence sources are at it again. Despite complaints from the UK, they continue to leak and report information and compromising the investigation and the hunt for potential suspects. That’s what countries with a ‘special relationship’ do when the terror threat is at critical, compromise investigations.
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There is a concerted, patently obvious effort underway to undermine Trump, and the leaker(s) and media are not above compromising investigations and attempting to destroy alliances to do it. It’s despicable in every way.
 
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