Many children born out of wedlock: what is root cause?

[Ces280]

From the age of 14 all I heard from other guys was “You need to get laid.” “You won’t be a man till you get laid.” and because I refused, and insisted on waiting for marriage all I started hearing was “Are you gay?” “You’ve got to be a fag.” When you take a puberty age male who is already going through changes hearing that crud is what may contribute to taking the dive. Luckily I had the brains to say no, and now at age 27; I look back, and realise they were wrong, and I’m not friends with any of them anymore.

 

[vern_humphrey]

From the age of 14 all I heard from other guys was “You need to get laid.” “You won’t be a man till you get laid.” and because I refused, and insisted on waiting for marriage all I started hearing was “Are you gay?” “You’ve got to be a fag.” When you take a puberty age male who is already going through changes hearing that crud is what may contribute to taking the dive. Luckily I had the brains to say no, and now at age 27; I look back, and realise they were wrong, and I’m not friends with any of them anymore.

Guys who gave you advice like that were never your friends.

 

[deb1]

I think it’s sad that more people aren’t moved in humility and compassion for the experiences of those who are living without the Lord and the comfort of the Blessed Mother and Her Church. Maybe the Holy Spirit will move some people to respond to this issue through the eyes of Christ.

God Bless

The thread is about the ‘root causes’ of out of wedlock births. It is not how to treat mothers once they give birth. I am a little confused as to how you don’t understand the difference between the subjects.

What would Jesus do is a good question. Remember with the woman to be stone, he told the pharisees not to pass judgement but what did he tell her? Not to sin anymore. He didn’t just hug her and tell her that she was okay.

It isn’t loving to deny that there are problems with our culture that need to fixed. We have some serious problems in how we view sex, male responsibility and love.

By all means, show support for women once they get pregnant so that they choose life but also look at why we no longer view premarital sex as something immoral. Or why a guy can walk away from a woman who is pregnant with his child. Until you attempt to fix those problems, you can’t really say that you are showing a loving attitude at all.

 

[honeysuckle]

The thread is about the ‘root causes’ of out of wedlock births. It is not how to treat mothers once they give birth. I am a little confused as to how you don’t understand the difference between the subjects. .

You obviously did not read my posts, as I clearly addressed the appropriateness of my comment. I find your tone rude, condescending, and totally dismissive of what I intended to contribute. I question if you even read the post where I stated my reason for commenting. I find your attitude disturbing, and will not be discussing this matter further.

 

[deb1]

You obviously did not read my posts, as I clearly addressed the appropriateness of my comment. I find your tone rude, condescending, and totally dismissive of what I intended to contribute. I question if you even read the post where I stated my reason for commenting. I find your attitude disturbing, and will not be discussing this matter further.

I don’t understand how anything I wrote could be construed as condescending, rude or dismissive of you. I disagreed with you, that was all. We will probably agree with each other on a different thread and another subject.

As several people have done, I pointed out that you are getting off subject from the OP, The Root Causes of Children Born Out Of Wedlock.

Starting new threads is very easy and the subject of how to show love and care to unwed mothers is a good one. Perhaps you could start a new thread.

 

[Elric]

There’s been a BIG change in attitude on the part of society. While I’m not advocating a return to the days when women who got pregnant out of wedlock were shunned by “polite” society, I can’t help but feel… I don’t know… I guess, disappointed (for lack of a better word) when I hear women gushing to their friends how their sixteen-year-old daughter is pregnant and how HAPPY they are for them and that they’re decorating the baby’s room and planning the shower and what names they’re considering.

I’m thinking, “Uh, hello, are you aware that your daughter committed a very serious sin when she conceived this child? Have you given any thought to helping her get her soul right with God, instead of trying to choose between wallpaper with bunnies or teddy bears???”

That is quite a judgment call to make. How do you know that the mother hasnt already done this and is now simply trying to make the best of the situation?

Honestly what can the mother do?

Would you rather that the mother makes the daughter feel guilty for the rest of her life, disown the daughter or worse yet force the daughter (either passivly or aggressivly) to get an abortion?

Either way thats adding more sin to the situation.

The circumstances are not the best, but there is a new life comming into this world and that is a reason to be happy.

I think part of the cause of the OP’s question is–no one is ashamed of it anymore.

I would disagree with that.

I think in many cases it is people questioning the relevence of marriage and not seeing any reason (outside of religious beliefs) to get married.

 

[Sabda]

I think it’s sad that more people aren’t moved in humility and compassion for the experiences of those who are living without the Lord and the comfort of the Blessed Mother and Her Church. Maybe the Holy Spirit will move some people to respond to this issue through the eyes of Christ.

God Bless

Just some friendly advice. On this particular message board the rules state you must stay on topic, unless the op has stated otherwise. Getting off topic like this is a very good way to get the thread locked. As it was already stated it’s very easy to start a new thread.

Now to get back on topic.
Why do you think that so many children are born out of wedlock? What happened in our society to cause the numbers that we are seeing today?

 

[Just_wondering]

I don’t know that in the strict sense of the term, we can say that contraception is the root cause…because if contraception were successful, well, then there would be fewer babies born out of wedlock.

Point taken,though, and I agree that the “freedom” of contraception is certainly a major factor, along with the other reasons posted.

I agree that contraception is a big part of it, as well as the cultural assumption that sex is something for everyone. I know we’re talking about the big picture, not individual stories, but here’s mine anyway.

I was not raised Catholic, and I grew up thinking that sex was just what couples did, before or after marriage. I figured I was smart to use contraception to avoid pregnancy, because I was never in the position of being pregnant and unmarried. We had sex ed in school, and it focused on abstinence, but there was always the comment “but you’ll be tempted, and if you do give in, use protection.” I wasn’t tempted in high school, but I had sex with my boyfriend in college. Frankly, I didn’t enjoy it that much because I was so afraid of getting a disease or getting pregnant. After I broke up with that boyfriend, I stopped dating for years because I wasn’t ready for marriage and wasn’t willing to risk pregnancy. People began to ask whether I was a lesbian and whether there was something wrong with me. Society doesn’t really accept abstinence, as much as schools might try to teach it (or not).

Personally, the thought of having a child out of wedlock was sufficient motivation for yours truly to abstain.

Now that I’m dating again and I’ve found the man I plan to marry, I have even more reason to abstain - I love him. Several people have questioned my judgment in choosing him - it’s an intercultural, international, interfaith relationship, and he doesn’t have a lot of money. If we were to give in to temptation, and if we became pregnant out of wedlock, nobody would ever believe that we were getting married for the right reasons. Because I love him so much, I want to prove my love for him by NOT having sex. I don’t think kids these days understand that. I certainly didn’t.

So based on my experience, which does not necessarily reflect everyone’s, society neither accepts nor respects abstinence before marriage. Everyone wants a trial run before they try marriage. “How can you buy a car without test driving it first?” But then they sneer at people who have children outside of marriage or who have a “shotgun wedding” with a visible baby bump. I guess the pro-life cause is doing okay, since there are so many children born out of wedlock. Now we just need to work on promoting abstinence.

 

[bluerose]

That is quite a judgment call to make. How do you know that the mother hasnt already done this and is now simply trying to make the best of the situation?

Um, I know these people; you don’t. Daughter is never in church (except when required by her confirmation prep) and mom is saying that she’s NOT going to dump guilt all over her daughter like her parents did to her.

Honestly what can the mother do?

How about NOT letting the boyfriend move in with them until he and the daughter are married? How about NOT offering to provide free child care whenever her daughter wants to go out with her friends?

Would you rather that the mother makes the daughter feel guilty for the rest of her life, disown the daughter or worse yet force the daughter (either passivly or aggressivly) to get an abortion?

Uh, where did I say any of that? I even said (look at my first post) that I am NOT advocating a return to the days when unwed mothers were shunned. What I am saying is that for Mom to be going around at work showing off her daughter’s ultrasound pictures to everyone and raving about how great it is that her daughter qualifies for free medical care and that the high school is providing free child care seems a bit much (and I’m not the only one at my work who feels that way.)

Either way thats adding more sin to the situation.

And fostering a sense of irresponsibility isn’t? How many mothers on these forums (whether married or unmarried) had that much support and help when they gave birth to this generation? When you don’t have to worry about money, child care, social stigma or even moral guilt, it sure makes it easier to engage in premarital sex… you don’t even have to worry about getting pregnant anymore!

The circumstances are not the best, but there is a new life comming into this world and that is a reason to be happy.

Of course it is. But teen mothers aren’t showing that they’ve learned anything except that if you REALLY don’t want to have another baby, get on the Pill (it’s FREE!), or else don’t worry, now you know what kind of help and support is available to you (all FREE!)

I would disagree with that.(that no one is ashamed of it anymore)

Maybe where you live. Around here, the only ones being made to feel ashamed are the ones who choose to give up their child for adoption, no matter how immature they are or how unstable or how dangerous their home life is. The ones who keep their babies are as proud as peacocks when they talk about how the social worker failed to prove negligence (again) and they can get a child care supplement while they’re working and their mom is watching the baby for free.

I think in many cases it is people questioning the relevence of marriage and not seeing any reason (outside of religious beliefs) to get married.

And it’s a cycle that will not be broken until people are made to be held accountable for their actions. Your child will not learn to clean up after herself if Mommy keeps doing it for her, nor learn the value of anything if everything is given to her, or that reckless actions have unhappy consequences if she learns to label herself a “victim” and blame society if something goes wrong.

You know what my mother told me 25 years ago when I was a young teen? What every other mother in the neighborhood told their daughter–if you get pregnant before you’re 15 (or 16), you won’t be having a quinceanera (or Sweet 16 party). Guess what? We all had our parties–with no baby showers beforehand. Then they said–if you get pregnant before you graduate, you won’t go on the senior trip nor get a graduation party. Guess what? We DID go to Disneyland and we DID have the big party–again with no baby showers.

When I got engaged, my mother said straight out to my husband-to-be, “My daughter WILL wear white on her wedding day!” Now, it seems to the be the norm that the couple will live together for a year, maybe five, before the wedding day, ostensibly to see if they’re “compatible”, but mainly to save up for 1) a house 2) a HUGE wedding or/and 3) that big honeymoon trip. And this is applauded as being “sensible”. And if they “oops”, slip up and have a baby or two before the wedding date, well, it’s okay, everyone thinks it’s simply adorable that the bride and groom’s children are the flower girl and ring bearer.

So, yeah, I stand by my original statement: One of the reasons there is an increase of out-of-wedlock pregnancies is that no one is ashamed of it anymore.

My sister actually made a novena to St. Jude to get pregnant (she was divorced and seeing a married man at the time) and keeps making Thanksgiving pilgrimages to his local shrine every year to thank him for answering her prayer! I love my sister and I love my niece dearly. But she doesn’t seem to think she did anything wrong. And it hurts me to think that her daughter is going to grow up and think “that’s the way my mom did it, so that’s how I’m going to do it.”

I know I’ll probably take a lot of flak for a lot of what I’ve said, and it’s not meant to be a blanket statement condemning all single mothers because I know a lot of single mothers who have made the best of their circumstances and are raising their children to break the cycle. But this is what I’ve seen and experienced and it is heartbreaking.

 

[JimG]

My sister actually made a novena to St. Jude to get pregnant (she was divorced and seeing a married man at the time) and keeps making Thanksgiving pilgrimages to his local shrine every year to thank him for answering her prayer!

A novena to petition that a child will result from illicit sex? That just kind of leaves me speechless.

 

[Elric]

I put your responses in red.

Um, I know these people; you don’t. Daughter is never in church (except when required by her confirmation prep) and mom is saying that she’s NOT going to dump guilt all over her daughter like her parents did to her.

Well you have started off the right way (with the “I know, you dont” speil). You are right, I dont know these people and can only go the information that you provide.

But in general I can go by my experiences/what I know and apply it to the example you have provided. There may have been conversations/confrontations that nobody else has been made aware of where the things that you wanted have transpired.

I have to say that the church/confirmation is hippocritical, but I dont understand the objection to her not going to dump guilt all over her daughter. Aside from it not achieving anything, it sounds like she has personal experience with the “guilt dumping” thing and has come to the conclusion that it isnt the right thing to do in this situation.

I am not sure if you expect her to lay guilt on her daughter and constantly remind her of her mistake throughout the daughters pregnancy or what it is exactly you expect the mother to do.

I am of the opinion that you dont dwell on the getting pregnant part, you have it out and tell them that they have made a mistake and they are wrong and then you move on. Nothing will change what has happened and all you can do is try to make the best of the situation.

How about NOT letting the boyfriend move in with them until he and the daughter are married? How about NOT offering to provide free child care whenever her daughter wants to go out with her friends?

The boyfriend is moving in?

Well at least he can take responsibility for his part in this by being there to change nappies and such. Its not a completly negative thing.

I dont know about every time that she wants to go out with her friends (unless its an infrequent thing), but sometimes isnt a bad thing.

Uh, where did I say any of that? I even said (look at my first post) that I am NOT advocating a return to the days when unwed mothers were shunned.

A lot of your post kind of contradicted that, I did actually read it.

What I am saying is that for Mom to be going around at work showing off her daughter’s ultrasound pictures to everyone and raving about how great it is that her daughter qualifies for free medical care and that the high school is providing free child care seems a bit much (and I’m not the only one at my work who feels that way.)

What exactly is wrong with that?

Showing ultrasound pictures isnt bad (Im not sure if you are saying its the mother or the daughter doing this), why cant they look foward to the birth of the child?

Free medical care means less financial concerns. That is a good thing, I dont understand the objection.

Free child care at school, she can continue with her schooling and hopefully get into a career where she can support herself and her child. It sounds like the school is foward thinking and wont force her to drop out. What is wrong with that?

You and your work collages need to build a bridge if these are your concerns, dont be so judgmental.

And fostering a sense of irresponsibility isn’t?

Is that what is happening?

It sounds like they are making the best of a bad situation, plus it sounds like the daughter is staying in school. Where is the sense of irresponsibility bit?

How many mothers on these forums (whether married or unmarried) had that much support and help when they gave birth to this generation?

There are quite a few generations on this forum, could you be more specific please?

My mother was a teenager in the 60’s, I think that this might be around the era that you are talking about. She was a single teenage mother in the society that you are refering to (the father didnt stick around), she told me the stories of her being a pregnent teen and teen mother.

She felt shame for what happened and she also felt a lot of fear when she had to tell her father, back then it was not uncommon for families to disown their daughters and kick them out of the home for being pregnant, my mother feared that her father was going to do that to her. While he was angry about the situation, he also loved his daughter and instead helped support her and her son when he arrived.

Unfortunatly she was unable to go back to school (young mothers were “frowned upon”), but she did get part time work and contributed to the household. She is thankful that families these days are more prone to take a leaf out of her fathers book by sticking together and supporting each other and that young mothers are able to go to school to improve their qualifications.

When you don’t have to worry about money, child care, social stigma or even moral guilt, it sure makes it easier to engage in premarital sex… you don’t even have to worry about getting pregnant anymore!

I dont agree with this at all.

Of course it is. But teen mothers aren’t showing that they’ve learned anything except that if you REALLY don’t want to have another baby, get on the Pill (it’s FREE!), or else don’t worry, now you know what kind of help and support is available to you (all FREE!)

What exactly do you base this on?

 

[Elric]

continuede:

(that no one is ashamed of it anymore)

Yes.

Maybe where you live. Around here, the only ones being made to feel ashamed are the ones who choose to give up their child for adoption, no matter how immature they are or how unstable or how dangerous their home life is.

Who exactly should be making them feel ashamed?

The ones who keep their babies are as proud as peacocks when they talk about how the social worker failed to prove negligence (again) and they can get a child care supplement while they’re working and their mom is watching the baby for free.

I wont even try to deny that there are unfit parents, because there are loads of them (single, unmarried and married). I wont deny that there are those that try to rort the system, there are always exceptions to the rule as the saying goes.

But these blanket statements of yours are labeling every young/unwed mother as the same and it is wrong to do that.

And it’s a cycle that will not be broken until people are made to be held accountable for their actions. Your child will not learn to clean up after herself if Mommy keeps doing it for her, nor learn the value of anything if everything is given to her, or that reckless actions have unhappy consequences if she learns to label herself a “victim” and blame society if something goes wrong.

That isnt even relevent to my comment.

You know what my mother told me 25 years ago when I was a young teen? What every other mother in the neighborhood told their daughter–if you get pregnant before you’re 15 (or 16), you won’t be having a quinceanera (or Sweet 16 party). Guess what? We all had our parties–with no baby showers beforehand. Then they said–if you get pregnant before you graduate, you won’t go on the senior trip nor get a graduation party. Guess what? We DID go to Disneyland and we DID have the big party–again with no baby showers.

Thats great, my father told me that if I got a girl pregnant he would circumcise my head.

My head is fine (as in he didnt carry out his thread).

When I got engaged, my mother said straight out to my husband-to-be, “My daughter WILL wear white on her wedding day!” Now, it seems to the be the norm that the couple will live together for a year, maybe five, before the wedding day, ostensibly to see if they’re “compatible”, but mainly to save up for 1) a house 2) a HUGE wedding or/and 3) that big honeymoon trip. And this is applauded as being “sensible”. And if they “oops”, slip up and have a baby or two before the wedding date, well, it’s okay, everyone thinks it’s simply adorable that the bride and groom’s children are the flower girl and ring bearer.

Well I wouldnt know about that being the reason that my parents got married and all.

But yes they “slip up” and then appear to take responsibility for their actions, by taking care of their kids. I think that you are too judgmental of others and unable to move past certain things.

So, yeah, I stand by my original statement: One of the reasons there is an increase of out-of-wedlock pregnancies is that no one is ashamed of it anymore.

I think that your idea of “ashamed” is quite far fetched and involves people not moving on with their lives.

My sister actually made a novena to St. Jude to get pregnant (she was divorced and seeing a married man at the time) and keeps making Thanksgiving pilgrimages to his local shrine every year to thank him for answering her prayer! I love my sister and I love my niece dearly. But she doesn’t seem to think she did anything wrong. And it hurts me to think that her daughter is going to grow up and think “that’s the way my mom did it, so that’s how I’m going to do it.”

Sounds like you sister did the wrong thing by her faith and was acting selfishly.

But that doesnt condone you comment about her daughter, your neice. Try to be charitable towards her and perhaps show her that isnt the way to do things, if you are concerned.

I know I’ll probably take a lot of flak for a lot of what I’ve said, and it’s not meant to be a blanket statement condemning all single mothers because I know a lot of single mothers who have made the best of their circumstances and are raising their children to break the cycle. But this is what I’ve seen and experienced and it is heartbreaking.

I dont really believe that to be true, otherwise you would not be so damning with your posts.

 

[blessedtoo]

Who exactly should be making them feel ashamed?

I think that your idea of “ashamed” is quite far fetched and involves people not moving on with their lives.

The boyfriend is moving in?

Well at least he can take responsibility for his part in this by being there to change nappies and such. Its not a completly negative thing.

I dont know about every time that she wants to go out with her friends (unless its an infrequent thing), but sometimes isnt a bad thing.

I am guessing that you are still quite young since your mama was pregnant in the 60’s. I am guessing that you also have a personal investment in this discussion since she was never married to your dad and hence is one of the “single” moms we are discussing. So while you’ve suggested to bluerose that:

I think that you are too judgmental of others and unable to move past certain things.

it is also possible that you are not able to approach this issue objectively.

In addition, your posts above are truly a perfect illustration of the idea bluerose put forth that there is simply no sense of shame where premarital sex and out-of-wedlock pregnancy is concerned. As a youngin’, you have been exposed to this dismantling of traditional morality and perhaps can’t understand what we mean by the word “shame”.

As Catholics, sin should always be shameful. No, it is not a sin to be pregnant and unmarried. It is certainly not a sin to bring a child into the world even without two married parents. However, the route one takes to get to this destination invloves the sin of premarital sex. When we stop feeling shame about sin, we are in a state of moral bankruptcy.

 

[Elric]

I am guessing that you are still quite young since your mama was pregnant in the 60’s.

Well I am in my mid 30’s, I dont know if that really classifies as quite young or not

I am guessing that you also have a personal investment in this discussion since she was never married to your dad and hence is one of the “single” moms we are discussing.

I suppose you could say that I have a personal investment in this, since it did happen to my mother.

But I think that you missed something. The father did not marry my mother, he ran off (which I did mention) and I have never met him. I did not state that the child in question was me, nor did I state that my mother and father did not marry (I actually suggested the oppisite).

The child in question is my older brother, he is in his late 30’s and has met his father on a couple of ocassions. Our fathers are different and a I said before I was the reason that my parents got married, their wedding beat my birth by 3 months.

So while you’ve suggested to bluerose that:

think that you are too judgmental of others and unable to move past certain things.

it is also possible that you are not able to approach this issue objectively.

I disagree.

That remark is called for when someone frowns on others looking positivly at things like free child care at the school the expectant mother goes to and for looking foward to the birth (with showing ultrasound pictures).

I am looking at this objectivly (well the teenage/unwed pregnancy thing) and practically. You let them know that they have messed up and have made a big mistake, you express your disapointment in what has happened. But you cant change what has happened and you cant continue laying guilt trips on them, at some point you have to move on and accept the situation.

You have to play with the cards that you have been dealt and hopefully that means supporting your pregnant teenage daughter and sticking together as a family.

In essence you make them aware that they made a mistake, express your disapointment, anger and upset and then deal with the situation. Nothing gets achieved by dwelling on the mistake or by constantly reminding them of it or your disapointment.

In addition, your posts above are truly a perfect illustration of the idea bluerose put forth that there is simply no sense of shame where premarital sex and out-of-wedlock pregnancy is concerned.

I dont really see that, but I guess that my idea of shame would be different to yours and bluerose.

As a youngin’, you have been exposed to this dismantling of traditional morality and perhaps can’t understand what we mean by the word “shame”.

I am not sure if “youngin” is appropiate, or has much bearing on the validity of my opinion.

As to morality. If you are talking about matrimonial morality, then I have already expressed my opinion on that.

As Catholics, sin should always be shameful. No, it is not a sin to be pregnant and unmarried. It is certainly not a sin to bring a child into the world even without two married parents. However, the route one takes to get to this destination invloves the sin of premarital sex. When we stop feeling shame about sin, we are in a state of moral bankruptcy.

As a cathloic, you are also meant to forgive and not to judge others. How long should a pregnant teen feel shame for?

How long should you express your disapointment in said teen for?

How long should you remind the teen of their mistake?

Who is allowed to pass judgment on the teen and for how long?

I mean are we talking for the rest of the pregnancy, the rest of her life, is there a point when you are allowed to say “whats done is done, lets deal with it the best we can”?

From what the suggestion seems to be, there is no stopping and you are not allowed to look foward to the birth or discuss positive issues like free child care at school or free medical care. I hope that I have it wrong, but it doesnt look good.

 

[bluerose]

Elric,

I am not going to go over every point again. Apparently we are not going to agree. So let’s go back to the bare basic original question:

Many children born out of wedlock: what is root cause?

Without being facetious, here it is:

The cause of children being born out of wedlock is SEX out of wedlock.

The fact is, whether anyone likes it or not, sex outside of marriage is a SIN. Whether one is remorseful and asks for forgiveness or not does not change the fact that the ACT itself is a SIN.

And society, as a whole, has relaxed their standards to the point that few see this as a sin anymore. That is what I mean by “ashamed”. Maybe I should phrase it as “no one thinks there’s anything wrong with it.” And because no one thinks there’s anything wrong with it, it’s going to keep happening.

Here’s what it looks like where I live:

When 14-year-old girls are being put on the Pill BY THEIR OWN PARENTS because “they’re going to have sex anyway”… something’s wrong.

When 15% of our local high school girls are pregnant (regardless of free contraception)… something’s wrong.

When we have a generation being raised without a father or by their grandparents… something’s wrong.

And God forgive me if I am mistaken, but when there is a 60% increase in programs designed to help pregnant teenagers… something is WRONG.

The programs aren’t wrong. The fact that children are being raised by their grandparents or single parents isn’t wrong. It’s the fact that these things are needed and the need for them is increasing is a very clear signal that somewhere, somehow, something went very wrong.

And my apologies to the pro-choice faction : apparently abortion and contraception are not the answers to the problems either, because while both have been widely available and mostly acceptable, the number of children being born out of wedlock is increasing.

I am not a cold-hearted witch. I have a great deal of compassion for women who find themselves in this kind of situation, regardless of the circumstances, and I have helped many of them try to get their lives in order. It’s the ones who take advantage of society and individuals in order to continue living recklessly and making irresponsible decisions that try my patience and compassion. I pray for an increase of both, not only that I may not judge others harshly, but so that others might not judge ME harshly either. No one likes a witch.

 

[JimG]

So let’s go back to the bare basic original question:

Many children born out of wedlock: what is root cause?

Without being facetious, here it is:

The cause of children being born out of wedlock is SEX out of wedlock.

You’re entirely right; and that backs up the question to “why is there so much sex out of wedlock now compared to, say thirty or forty years ago?

From the standpoint of a guy who went to high school back in the enchanted era, I don’t think we–the boys anyway–were any less tempted by lust. I knew several high school buddies who made it their “project” to get not just to 3rd base but to hit a home run. The difference then was, none of them were successful! The entire weight of social pressure militated against success! Contraceptives were nearly unavailable except behind the counter. The girls knew that if they succumbed and it became known, they would be outcasts even among their friends. If they got pregnant, they pretty much disappeared from their former social circle. Porn was nowhere available except in a few sleazy bookshops. There were few if any titillating images to be found in newspapers, advertising, TV, and of course no internet.

Now it seems the social pressure goes all the other way, so it hardly seems surprising that so many are succumbing to it.

 

[Elric]

Elric,

I am not going to go over every point again. Apparently we are not going to agree. So let’s go back to the bare basic original question:

I wish that you could answer some of the questions that I asked.

Many children born out of wedlock: what is root cause?

Without being facetious, here it is:

The cause of children being born out of wedlock is SEX out of wedlock.

I think that there is a little more to it than that.

Why are people having sex out of marriage?

Why are people choosing not to get married?

The fact is, whether anyone likes it or not, sex outside of marriage is a SIN. Whether one is remorseful and asks for forgiveness or not does not change the fact that the ACT itself is a SIN.

To your beliefs its a sin, but not everyone shares those beliefs.

But this again raises the issue of dwelling on the sin, focusing more on the act than the forgivness part.

And society, as a whole, has relaxed their standards to the point that few see this as a sin anymore. That is what I mean by “ashamed”. Maybe I should phrase it as “no one thinks there’s anything wrong with it.” And because no one thinks there’s anything wrong with it, it’s going to keep happening.

Should we just dwell on mistakes (that we cant change), or should we accept that a mistake has been made and move foward?

How long should we make someone ashamed for their mistake?

Who are the people that should judge them?

How do you know that they are not ashamed for what they have done?

Here’s what it looks like where I live:

When 14-year-old girls are being put on the Pill BY THEIR OWN PARENTS because “they’re going to have sex anyway”… something’s wrong.

When 15% of our local high school girls are pregnant (regardless of free contraception)… something’s wrong.

When we have a generation being raised without a father or by their grandparents… something’s wrong.

And God forgive me if I am mistaken, but when there is a 60% increase in programs designed to help pregnant teenagers… something is WRONG.

This is really a seperate issue.

This is more about teen pregnancy rather than the topic of children born out of wedlock. I am alarmed by 14yo girls going on the pill (they have not fully developed yet and things like that can be bad for their growing bodies) as a precaution, it worries me that children are having children instead of exploring the world they are in and discovering wonderful things (like going to Disney World). It upsets me that children grow up without their father (although sometimes it is necessary) or are being raised by their grandparents (although sometimes its safer for the child).

Teen pregnancy is a vaild and noble topic, it is one that concerns me and deserves to be discussed. But it is a seperate issue to this.

The programs aren’t wrong. The fact that children are being raised by their grandparents or single parents isn’t wrong. It’s the fact that these things are needed and the need for them is increasing is a very clear signal that somewhere, somehow, something went very wrong.

Again this is about teen pregnancy.

And my apologies to the pro-choice faction : apparently abortion and contraception are not the answers to the problems either, because while both have been widely available and mostly acceptable, the number of children being born out of wedlock is increasing.

That seems to be a bit of a strawman, I dont think that abortions are actually meant to prevent pregnancy. Although the shaming mentality does get people to have them.

I am not a cold-hearted witch. I have a great deal of compassion for women who find themselves in this kind of situation, regardless of the circumstances, and I have helped many of them try to get their lives in order.

I can only go by the information that you provide, but I do find that statement questionable what you have stated that you have “frowned” on a person for discussing the benifets of free child care at her pregnant daughters school and called her irresponsible.

It’s the ones who take advantage of society and individuals in order to continue living recklessly and making irresponsible decisions that try my patience and compassion. I pray for an increase of both, not only that I may not judge others harshly, but so that others might not judge ME harshly either. No one likes a witch.

I dont think that you are a witch, I think that you can be overly judgemental (I think that I already mentioned that) and you seem unwilling to let things go. If God can forgive them, then I think that we should have a go as well.

People who rort the system and are neglegent in taking care of their kids or dont take responsibility for their actions are bad/wrong, they should reconsider their ways (sadly many dont). But that isnt the case with every unwed pregnancy.

 

[bluerose]

I honestly have NO idea what kind of answers you expect from me. You call me judgmental (we’ll leave THAT right there) because I’m seeing a problem and calling it what it is.

A society that views out of wedlock pregnancy as the norm (and therefore not “shameful” or “wrong”) would not have unmarried pregnant celebrities splashed all over their covers, with glowing articles about how how gushingly happy they are. Whether it’s teenagers or adults is irrelevant. SOMETHING IS WRONG and I have no idea how to fix it except to suggest that we need to stop making it out to be something that is good or, at the very least, morally neutral.

And “my” beliefs seemed to be universally held at least until the middle to late part of the last century. I’m not saying that artificial contraception, abortion, extra and pre-marital sex, didn’t exist, but they certainly weren’t considered to be the norm or acceptable.

As for why people are choosing not to get married–I don’t know. Is it too much work? Are they afraid of failure? Do they think it old-fashioned? Or is it society’s “disposable” mentality–if it doesn’t work, don’t try to fix it; just throw it out. Much easier to have walk-in/walk-out relationships than to actually sacrifice yourself to make a permanent commitment work.

And I am well aware that not every woman who gets pregnant out of wedlock is out to milk the system. I know a lot of women who’ve been left single mothers, either by widowhood or deadbeat men who walked out on their responsibilities whether married or not, who are doing their best to raise their families without taking advantage of the system. I happen to know a few men who got left as single fathers by women who not only left HIS children behind, but their own children by other men!

It’s the seventeen-year-olds with one or two children already in the high school day care expecting their second or third child that bothers me. And as I stated before, that IS a problem in my area that seems to be increasing.

One last thing: you keep bringing up “forgiveness”, as if that’s the answer to the original question. As if you don’t believe that I, individually, or society, as a whole, haven’t forgiven people who have sinned (but then I’m the one who’s judgmental; you’re not.) I suppose forgiveness must equate acceptance of irresponsible or immoral behavior, regardless of how often it occurs. Or let me put it this way: I can forgive my child or my spouse or whoever for their sin seventy times seven.

Does that mean I have to ACCEPT their sin?

 

[Elric]

I honestly have NO idea what kind of answers you expect from me.

How about ones that support your statements or clarifies them?

For example: when you make statements like "Mom to be going around at work showing off her daughter’s ultrasound pictures to everyone and raving about how great it is that her daughter qualifies for free medical care and that the high school is providing free child care seems a bit much " you are asked what is wrong with these things, you dont support or clarify your statement.

I dont think that it is unreasonable to ask you to support this.

You call me judgmental (we’ll leave THAT right there) because I’m seeing a problem and calling it what it is.

No, lets not leave it “right there”.

There is a reason that I am saying that you are judgmental and it has nothing to do with you “seeing a problem and calling it what it is” because that isnt what you are doing.

It is because of statements that you have made like the quote in red above.

A society that views out of wedlock pregnancy as the norm (and therefore not “shameful” or “wrong”) would not have unmarried pregnant celebrities splashed all over their covers, with glowing articles about how how gushingly happy they are.

I think that you mean that they would.

Whether it’s teenagers or adults is irrelevant. SOMETHING IS WRONG and I have no idea how to fix it except to suggest that we need to stop making it out to be something that is good or, at the very least, morally neutral.

And “my” beliefs seemed to be universally held at least until the middle to late part of the last century.

It seems that you completly missed the point about your beliefs.

I’m not saying that artificial contraception, abortion, extra and pre-marital sex, didn’t exist, but they certainly weren’t considered to be the norm or acceptable.

As for why people are choosing not to get married–I don’t know. Is it too much work? Are they afraid of failure? Do they think it old-fashioned? Or is it society’s “disposable” mentality–if it doesn’t work, don’t try to fix it; just throw it out. Much easier to have walk-in/walk-out relationships than to actually sacrifice yourself to make a permanent commitment work.

Perhaps people dont see the relevence of marriage. You dont need it to commit to someone, looking at the divorce rate apparently you dont need to be commited to get married. Some people argue that they dont need a piece of paper to show that they love someone or that they are commited to that person, others see it as an archaic institution that can be demeaning to women (with the whole giving away the bride, taking the husbands name, the brides family pays for the wedding ect) and would rather not participate in such a practice.

There are a lot of reasons that people choose not to get married and not all of them are negative.

And I am well aware that not every woman who gets pregnant out of wedlock is out to milk the system.

Well perhaps you should be more expressive of that when posting.

I know a lot of women who’ve been left single mothers, either by widowhood or deadbeat men who walked out on their responsibilities whether married or not, who are doing their best to raise their families without taking advantage of the system. I happen to know a few men who got left as single fathers by women who not only left HIS children behind, but their own children by other men!

Yep, there are some nasty people in the world.

It’s the seventeen-year-olds with one or two children already in the high school day care expecting their second or third child that bothers me. And as I stated before, that IS a problem in my area that seems to be increasing.

Actually you didnt state that specifically.

But hey, I agree. They are not doing the right thing and I am not usually impressed with people like that.

One last thing: you keep bringing up “forgiveness”, as if that’s the answer to the original question.

No I dont, I keep bringing it up because of your apparent unwillingness to move on after a mistake has been made. It really has nothing to do with the original question.

As if you don’t believe that I, individually, or society, as a whole, haven’t forgiven people who have sinned (but then I’m the one who’s judgmental; you’re not.)

I really have no idea where you got that from.

I certainly didnt state that I wasnt judgemental, I actually think that I have shown the opposite, I didnt say anything about society (although it can be unforgiving).

I suppose forgiveness must equate acceptance of irresponsible or immoral behavior, regardless of how often it occurs. Or let me put it this way: I can forgive my child or my spouse or whoever for their sin seventy times seven.

Please dont put words into my mouth.

Does that mean I have to ACCEPT their sin?

Actually I think it means that you should accept that they have sinned (ie: done the wrong thing) and move on. You cant change what has happened and will not achieve anything by dwelling on their mistake, you cant hold a persons one sin against them forever. That isnt suggesting that you forgive them every single time for the same sin.

 

[blessedtoo]

Elric,
I think we can all agree that reiterating the sin and inducing ongoing guilt in a person who has, blessedly, chosen to have their baby outside of wedlock (rather than abort) is unproductive.

Can we now move on?

And since you appear to want to quibble about “beliefs”, let’s just speak about facts.

Children raised outside of intact marriages are significantly more likely than other children to use drugs … to drop out of school … to commit crimes … to suffer from depression and emotional distress … to be neglected or abused … to be sexually active early … to commit or consider suicide … and later in life to get divorced themselves and to bear children outside of marriage.
The weakening of marriage costs taxpayers billions of dollars — in more jails, welfare payments, medical costs, court costs, remedial education, and juvenile justice systems — and creates untold suffering for millions of children and for society as a whole.

center.americanvalues.org/?p=5

Study after study reveals that traditional marriage is the best environment for children. Obviously, out of wedlock birth is a societal problem BEYOND belief systems and religious doctrines.

It can be argued that people are more willing to adhere to traditional moral standards if religious belief is the basis. Prior to the “sexual revolution” of the late 50’s and 60’s, Church attendance and adherence to religious tenets was the norm. With everything authoritative being called into question during that tumultuous time, traditional belief was jettisoned for the more pleasurable “do you own thing” belief system. We are seeing the results of this philosophy.

Without a foundation in some religious tradition, it is nearly impossible to maintain high moral standards. Reason and logic alone will not persuade a 15 year old girl that premarital sex is wrong because science and our culture is constantly coming up with the means to make immoral choices acceptable. There is ample evidence that these lifestyle choices present tremendous obstacles for children yet, as bluerose stated, such behaviors are glorified and exalted in our media daily impacting the most vulnerable and easily influenced among us: the youth.