marian apparitions demonic?

[tm30]

i saw an anti catholic marian video on youtube
youtube.com/watch?v=AnZIU4g6IHM

it discribes marian apparitions as demonic. I posted a comment that basically said that marian apparitions cannot be demonic because many of them produce miracles of healing and satan cannot perform miracles of healing or excorsism(think back to the bible when the phasasies called jesus demonic ) because “satan cannot drive out satan”

i also noted that the argument of “satan can appear as an angel of light” is not applicable to marian apparitions because mary is not an angel. are these good argument? what other arguments would you suggest to refute accusations like this?

Many marian apparitions have been rejected as demonic. On the other hand, many have been authenticated by the local bishop, who enjoys the authority to discern. Fatima, Lourdes, LaSalette, Akita, St. Faustina (who saw both Jesus and Mary), St. Dominic, St. Catherine of Sienna and Our Lady of the Americas are just a few.

The key to all of this is to trust the discernment of the bishop. When people start making up their own minds, they risk finding themselves on opposite sides of the bishop, which is extremely dangerous for the soul that is not humble enough to accept his verdict.

 

[surgei]

i saw an anti catholic marian video on youtube
youtube.com/watch?v=AnZIU4g6IHM

it discribes marian apparitions as demonic. I posted a comment that basically said that marian apparitions cannot be demonic because many of them produce miracles of healing and satan cannot perform miracles of healing or excorsism(think back to the bible when the phasasies called jesus demonic ) because “satan cannot drive out satan”

i also noted that the argument of “satan can appear as an angel of light” is not applicable to marian apparitions because mary is not an angel. are these good argument? what other arguments would you suggest to refute accusations like this?

looked at the website at the front of the clip. anti catholic. look to scott hahn or some other scholastic view. this has more fundamental issues than saying the aparitions are demonic.
Hail Holy Queen might be a good start.

 

[surgei]

They have links to and are part of the same larger “ministry” as ICR. ICR (the Institute for Creation Research) is a psudo science group that is refuted by protesstant and Catholic alike.
They are not wrong in the scriptural call to test the spirit, but the way they test the spirit is by putting it up to their own perspectives on the scriptures. If their perspectives are in line with the church they may judge rightly. If not, they likely swing and miss. That is the case with this video.

 

[jkarp]

About the “angel” of light question. The word “angel” only means “messenger” so it could be translated that Satan can masquerade as a “messenger of light.”

Satan is, in fact, a angel (albeit a fallen one). The word angel does not describe or designate the nature of a being; it describes an office (according to St. Gregory:* nomen est officii, non naturae)*. A contemporary example could be the word “minister.”

With regard to the evil one being referred to as an angel of light, he commonly is. One of names by which the evil one is known is lucifer or “light bearer” (from the latin root: lux); though a valid argument can be made that this title is erroneously applied as it actually refers to the state from which he has fallen.

A good reference for more on this subject is:
newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Of course the Marian apparitions aren’t Mary! They’re demons masquerading as Mary! …

Alot of o protestants think that the Catholic Church is satanic. So, when Our Lady of Guadalupe converted the Aztec pagans of Mexico to catholicsm, it is only natural that the sceptic protestants would dismiss Our Lady of Guadalupe as satanic

And alot of protestants think that praying the Rosary is satanic. So when Our Lady of Fatima identified herself as “The Lady of the Rosary” and said “pray, pray alot”, then obviously protestants will dismiss Fatima’s miracle of the sun (Oct 13th, 1917) as satanic.

The protestant stance against marian apparitions has nothing to do with Mary or demons, and everything to do with anti-catholicism.

 

[jkarp]

A lot of o protestants think that the Catholic Church is satanic . . . The protestant stance against marian apparitions has nothing to do with Mary or demons, and everything to do with anti-catholicism.

Great point!

 

[surgei]

The protestant stance against marian apparitions has nothing to do with Mary or demons, and everything to do with anti-catholicism.

I don’t buy what you are selling here. Their are quite a few very good articles by theologains such as Clark in his book “The Truth: What every Roman Catholic should know about the Orthodox Church”.
Clark is of course Orthodox so it is not out of a spirit of hatred for Mary that he writes. Nor is it a hatred for sacred tradition. Nor is it cause he thinks Bedadict and all popes are the antichrist.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Marian apparitions always bring believers closer to the Holy Trinity. That is clearly not something a demonic presence would do.

Just to be devil’s advocate, what do you mean they always bring believers closer to the Holy Trinity?

I’ve heard people from both sides on Medjagoria, for example, just from the Latins. Let alone the Orthodox.

For the latter (although I don’t agree with all aspects):
orthodoxinfo.com/searchresults.aspx?kw=marian%20apparitions

 

[Mannyfit75]

Just to be devil’s advocate, what do you mean they always bring believers closer to the Holy Trinity?

I’ve heard people from both sides on Medjagoria, for example, just from the Latins. Let alone the Orthodox.

For the latter (although I don’t agree with all aspects):
orthodoxinfo.com/searchresults.aspx?kw=marian%20apparitions

That apparition is not approved. If an apparition say something contrary to the Magisterium and Public Revelation of Jesus, it is not from God.

 

[honeysuckle]

I am in RCIA, and have recently been reading about Fatima, and I have to admit, I am troubled and confused. I truly cannot say what I believe right now about Fatima, except that I think it is unquestionably supernatural. I would like to believe it is the work of God, but I am troubled by what I have read about the actual message of the apparition.

I am troubled that when the children asked whether they would go to heaven, the apparition told Francisco his salvation would hinge on the saying of many rosaries. On the one hand, if that is interpreted to mean the rosary is an evangelical tool to bring people to belief in the saving power of Jesus, then I can understand, but if not, then what difference is there between our faith and the works-righteousness faiths of the Jewish and Muslim religions? But, when you think about it, why would Mary not say to Francisco, “here is Christ, salvation is through Him?” Why does Mary emphasize herself? I understand that as Catholics , or in my case, transitioning Catholics, believe that Mary was the second Eve, and Immaculate, but even so she points to the Redeemer. She is not the redeemer. So why has she asked the world to be devote themselves to her?

And yet, I admit, there appears nothing wrong with the prayer of Fatima, why would the devil ask us to pray for the salvation of sinners?

There is also another part of the story that is deeply troubling, and that is the deaths of the children, and the report that Mary will heal some but not others. The problem is that this is not what the Lord does in the Bible. He heals and raises from the dead, He does not take children from their parents. He does not cause children to suffer and die. Most troubling is the report that Francisco wanted to know if his sufferings were enough for Jesus and Mary. Our own suffering is not redemptive for except that we are “taking up our crosses” in obedience to the Lord; it is the Lord’s perfect sacrifice that actually redeems and saves the sinner. It is His suffering that is redemptive. Our suffering is not redemptive, it is obedient.

I know you can argue this away theologically, but I am reminded of my childhood. I was not raised a Christian. I was raised in a family that venerated a Guru who claimed to be the reincarnation of Christ. I recall very clearly a story from a children’s book about two children who were told by an angel that one had a summer body and the other had a winter body. The one with the summer body was joyous because she knew she would die soon and go to Heaven. The one with the winter body would stay and live longer.

This is very subtle and difficult, because I know that we do hope for heaven and we do know our lives after death will be better than here on earth and we do willingly lay down our lives and willingly crucify the flesh according to Scripture, but we don’t rejoice in the death of children. Jesus wept when Lazarus died. He raised him.

I don’t know… these are just honest thoughts and honest questions and concerns.

 

[snowfly]

Therefore, some claimed private revelations are not from Heaven.

Ron Conte

Indeed they are not, and the devil is full of trickery, which is why we should follow the Church.

I’ve read numerous stories of demonic trickery, some being…

To Saint Pio…disguised as Our Lady,[

Blessed Alexandrina Maria ](Blessed Alexandrina Maria)Da Costa, often called the fourth seer of Fatima, for 10 years with satan even saying he was Jesus.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… why would Mary not say to Francisco, “here is Christ, salvation is through Him?” Why does Mary emphasize herself?…

• because the King gave Esther the authority to use his name and to use the royal seal. St Thomas recognised Esther as a Marian typology. (See Esther [Greek] 8:3,7-8)

… I understand that as Catholics , or in my case, transitioning Catholics, believe that Mary was the second Eve, and Immaculate, but even so she points to the Redeemer. She is not the redeemer. So why has she asked the world to be devote themselves to her?

Not quite… The Church is the second Eve; Mary is the personification of the Church. (Jesus is the new Adam and His Bride, The Church, is the new Eve.)

My thoughts - being devoted to Mary is the same as being devoted to The Church. And being devoted to The Church, the Bride of Christ, is the same as being devoted to the mystical body of Christ. :twocents:

And yet, I admit, there appears nothing wrong with the prayer of Fatima, why would the devil ask us to pray for the salvation of sinners?

Exactly. So, don’t be fooled by any protestant. A protestant’s faith is dependant on denying Fatima. A Catholic, whether they accept or deny Fatima, is still a Catholic.

I hope this helps. The rest of your post is too difficult for me to answer.

 

[honeysuckle]

I am asking those who read this to please pray for me, that I might have clear discernment and be in complete obedience to God, reconciled through the sacrifice of His Son.

I made the decision to convert to Catholicism because I desired to be closest to the original faith of our church. I desire God’s grace and mercy and favor, and to be obedient to His commands.

I am terribly frightened by the prospect of encountering idolatry, or demonic deception, as I have been previously deceived and have previously participated in pagan religions. I pray the blood of Christ would absolve me of those sins and lead me to a place of peace where I am wholly reconciled to God.

 

[Church_Militant]

I am asking those who read this to please pray for me, that I might have clear discernment and be in complete obedience to God, reconciled through the sacrifice of His Son.

Consider it done! I will remember you in all my daily prayers and at Mass tomorrow morning.

For right now, please join me in one of the most effective prayers that I know of.
Saint Michael Prayer

Saint Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle.
Be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,
by the power of God
cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits
who prowl throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen

I made the decision to convert to Catholicism because I desired to be closest to the original faith of our church. I desire God’s grace and mercy and favor, and to be obedient to His commands.

A very wise choice my friend. Now in the words of Our Lord as often quoted by Pope John Paul the Great. “Be not afraid”.

I am terribly frightened by the prospect of encountering idolatry, or demonic deception, as I have been previously deceived and have previously participated in pagan religions. I pray the blood of Christ would absolve me of those sins and lead me to a place of peace where I am wholly reconciled to God.

My dear friend,
Remember that the church is not incautious in approving these things and so you can remain confident that the discernment of the church is a safeguard against such deceptions. As I often remind people, what is the essential message of all the approved apparitions of the Blessed Virgin? The same one that she first gave in the Gospel at the wedding feast in Cana. “Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.” (John 2:5)

You’re gonna be fine.

 

[surgei]

I am troubled that when the children asked whether they would go to heaven, the apparition told Francisco his salvation would hinge on the saying of many rosaries. On the one hand, if that is interpreted to mean the rosary is an evangelical tool to bring people to belief in the saving power of Jesus, then I can understand, but if not, then what difference is there between our faith and the works-righteousness faiths of the Jewish and Muslim religions? But, when you think about it, why would Mary not say to Francisco, “here is Christ, salvation is through Him?” Why does Mary emphasize herself? I understand that as Catholics , or in my case, transitioning Catholics, believe that Mary was the second Eve, and Immaculate, but even so she points to the Redeemer. She is not the redeemer. So why has she asked the world to be devote themselves to her?

And yet, I admit, there appears nothing wrong with the prayer of Fatima, why would the devil ask us to pray for the salvation of sinners?

There is also another part of the story that is deeply troubling, and that is the deaths of the children, and the report that Mary will heal some but not others. The problem is that this is not what the Lord does in the Bible. He heals and raises from the dead, He does not take children from their parents. He does not cause children to suffer and die. Most troubling is the report that Francisco wanted to know if his sufferings were enough for Jesus and Mary. Our own suffering is not redemptive for except that we are “taking up our crosses” in obedience to the Lord; it is the Lord’s perfect sacrifice that actually redeems and saves the sinner. It is His suffering that is redemptive. Our suffering is not redemptive, it is obedient.

I know you can argue this away theologically, but I am reminded of my childhood. I was not raised a Christian. I was raised in a family that venerated a Guru who claimed to be the reincarnation of Christ. I recall very clearly a story from a children’s book about two children who were told by an angel that one had a summer body and the other had a winter body. The one with the summer body was joyous because she knew she would die soon and go to Heaven. The one with the winter body would stay and live longer.

This is very subtle and difficult, because I know that we do hope for heaven and we do know our lives after death will be better than here on earth and we do willingly lay down our lives and willingly crucify the flesh according to Scripture, but we don’t rejoice in the death of children. Jesus wept when Lazarus died. He raised him.

I don’t know… these are just honest thoughts and honest questions and concerns.

Prayer is the center of who we are as human. The fathers said: Fish swim. Birds fly. Humans pray.
The Rosary is a meditative prayer. As such it brings us closer to God the Father of mercies and the origin of our salvation. I think it would be wrong to categorize the call on the Fatima youths to pray the rosary as a type of works with the sense that the jews and moslems use them. The primary purpose of the Rosary is to put the venerable tradition of meditative prayer into the hands of the people.
Please know that the meditative prayer spoken of here is likely a world away from the meditative prayer you had as a child. “Conversation with Christ” by Peter Thomas Rohrbach is a book one of my RC priest friends has all of his spiritual children read, that is those who use him as their regular confessor.
Mary is the new Eve spoken of by the Fathers. They do so explicitly but not exclusively. Youi are right in that she points us to Christ. Our devotion to Mary is not an end in and of itself. Perhaps something that could help you is the works of St Maxamillian Kolbe. The website www.consecration.org might be a good place to start. If you are in the Chicago area of the country, a visit to Marytown would bennefit you greatly.
The suffering we endure is not merely in obedience to Christ. It is an integral part of our salvation. St Paul writes ‘For this reason I beat my body so that I may complete that wich is lacking in the sufferings of Christ’. What is lacking in the suffering of Christ? Our suffering can become redemptive as well when placed in union with the suffering of Christ on the Cross. Also in the vein of Kolbe is the apostolate he started called ‘Knights at the Foot of the Cross’.

 

[Riley259]

i saw an anti catholic marian video on youtube
youtube.com/watch?v=AnZIU4g6IHM

it discribes marian apparitions as demonic. I posted a comment that basically said that marian apparitions cannot be demonic because many of them produce miracles of healing and satan cannot perform miracles of healing or excorsism(think back to the bible when the phasasies called jesus demonic ) because “satan cannot drive out satan”

i also noted that the argument of “satan can appear as an angel of light” is not applicable to marian apparitions because mary is not an angel. are these good argument? what other arguments would you suggest to refute accusations like this?

Marian apparitions that the Church deems worthy of belief are obviously not of demonic origin. However, there are many others of dubious authenticity (ex., Bayside) that may indeed be demonically influenced or they may simply be generated from the mind of a person with either mental illness or selfish, attention-grabbing motives. This is why we need the Church to rule on any apparition.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I am asking those who read this to please pray for me, that I might have clear discernment and be in complete obedience to God, reconciled through the sacrifice of His Son.

I made the decision to convert to Catholicism because I desired to be closest to the original faith of our church. I desire God’s grace and mercy and favor, and to be obedient to His commands.

I am terribly frightened by the prospect of encountering idolatry, or demonic deception, as I have been previously deceived and have previously participated in pagan religions. I pray the blood of Christ would absolve me of those sins and lead me to a place of peace where I am wholly reconciled to God.

Pray that you receive no visions, miraclesetc. until you are ready for them. Then you don’t need to worry about it.

When I was converting, I did so. When I later saw my first miracle (weeping icon at St. Nicholas Albanian Orthodox), it was just icing on a cake already baked.

 

[honeysuckle]

Consider it done! I will remember you in all my daily prayers and at Mass tomorrow morning.

This is deeply appreciated, thank you.

surgei:

The suffering we endure is not merely in obedience to Christ. It is an integral part of our salvation. St Paul writes ‘For this reason I beat my body so that I may complete that wich is lacking in the sufferings of Christ’. What is lacking in the suffering of Christ? Our suffering can become redemptive as well when placed in union with the suffering of Christ on the Cross.

I appreciate your words, and I do not, or have not until now, had any reason to reject the rosary for being meditative. I said before that I can accept an admonition to say the rosary if one understands it to be a tool to understand our salvation, much in the same way that Mary is a device to understand God Incarnate.

As I said, I am most troubled by the apparation inviting the children to “suffer all that God will bring to you for the salvation of souls”. I think there is a subtle but important difference between “strength made perfect in weakness”, which I think is what you are quoting? 2 Corinthians 12:9 “And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”

Contrasted with this, taken from a transcript of the apparition of May 13, 1917, “Will you offer yourselves to God, and bear all the sufferings He sends you? In atonement for all the sins that offend Him? And for the conversion of sinners?”

Where are we instructed in the earliest faith of the fathers, as evidenced by scripture, that our sufferings atone? The only atonement is through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. He said, “It is finished”.

Paul asks us to present our bodies as a “living sacrifice”. Romans 12:1, “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your spiritual worship.”

What we suffer and sacrifice is the flesh by the grace of God, but rather than atone for our sins, we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit. So, it is by grace we are made perfect, and by the Holy Spirit we are sanctified.

I am joining the Church not because I wish to practice and believe what is contrary to scripture, but becaues I believed that the traditions of the Church complement and support scripture, and that the Church will not be out of line with scripture. Therefore, we are called to test all things. I Thessalonians 5:21"Test all things and hold fast to that which is good".

My difficulties lie in reading the words of the apparition to the children that deal with how we are redeemed. There is no mention of Christ, only of her Immaculate Heart. Perhaps the heart of Mary represents the Church, and the willingness of man to embrace God. In that case, then there is no problem. However, I am troubled that Mary appears alone, and the Blessed Fruit of Her Womb is not mentioned.

I am also perplexed that she directs the building of a shrine both at Fatima and Lourdes. It just doesn’t strike me as modeling the hearts of even the angels in heaven who when they appear before men, always point upwards to God, and never direct worship to themselves.

 

[surgei]

This is deeply appreciated, thank you.

I appreciate your words, and I do not, or have not until now, had any reason to reject the rosary for being meditative. I said before that I can accept an admonition to say the rosary if one understands it to be a tool to understand our salvation, much in the same way that Mary is a device to understand God Incarnate.

As I said, I am most troubled by the apparation inviting the children to “suffer all that God will bring to you for the salvation of souls”. I think there is a subtle but important difference between “strength made perfect in weakness”, which I think is what you are quoting? 2 Corinthians 12:9 “And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”

Contrasted with this, taken from a transcript of the apparition of May 13, 1917, “Will you offer yourselves to God, and bear all the sufferings He sends you? In atonement for all the sins that offend Him? And for the conversion of sinners?”

Where are we instructed in the earliest faith of the fathers, as evidenced by scripture, that our sufferings atone? The only atonement is through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. He said, “It is finished”.

Paul asks us to present our bodies as a “living sacrifice”. Romans 12:1, “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your spiritual worship.”

What we suffer and sacrifice is the flesh by the grace of God, but rather than atone for our sins, we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit. So, it is by grace we are made perfect, and by the Holy Spirit we are sanctified.

I am joining the Church not because I wish to practice and believe what is contrary to scripture, but becaues I believed that the traditions of the Church complement and support scripture, and that the Church will not be out of line with scripture. Therefore, we are called to test all things. I Thessalonians 5:21"Test all things and hold fast to that which is good".

My difficulties lie in reading the words of the apparition to the children that deal with how we are redeemed. There is no mention of Christ, only of her Immaculate Heart. Perhaps the heart of Mary represents the Church, and the willingness of man to embrace God. In that case, then there is no problem. However, I am troubled that Mary appears alone, and the Blessed Fruit of Her Womb is not mentioned.

I am also perplexed that she directs the building of a shrine both at Fatima and Lourdes. It just doesn’t strike me as modeling the hearts of even the angels in heaven who when they appear before men, always point upwards to God, and never direct worship to themselves.

As far as your questions about suffering being redemptive I suggest you read “On the Christian Meaning of Human Suffering” by HHJPII.
Realize that the Churches view on Fatima and Lourdes is that they do not contain that which is contrary to scripture and that they do not apear to be of natural origins.
Look at the aparitions again. You will find Christ there.
I am glad you use the phrase blessed fruit of her womb.It is a rumenation with a twist. A rumenation is like the “I’m lovin it” jingle. It pulls into the mind so much in such a little phrase. Luke does the same. He is quoting from the OT book of Judith. He twists it at the end. The OT says “Blessed are you among women and Blessed is the God of heaven”. If you don’t know this part you don’t get what Luke is doing. He is telling us that God is in her womb.
One of the reasons Mary speaks of her own heart is that it is united with the heart of God. This does not make her devine but just as you calling my dad’s last name funny calls my last name funny, so too are the hearts of Mary all the saints and God linked.
I have to go fill in a watch for a friend now.
In Christs love,
Surgei

 

[vocatio]

(Edited)

I used to believe that non-sense too.

Talk about taking something out of context.