marian apparitions demonic?

[surgei]

(Edited)

I used to believe that non-sense too.

Talk about taking something out of context.

Can you clearify what you consider non-sense and taken out of context?

 

[honeysuckle]

Surgei,

I appreciate your guidance, and will read the sources you are recommending.

My issue is that I think there is a very big difference between suffering for the sake of Christ and a person taking on generalized suffering for the sins of mankind. Unless we are born innocent, then any suffering we experience cannot atone, though if we trust God, as Paul demonstrates, then it may give God the opportunity to glorify the sufferer through His strength.

Unless we are born without sin, then any suffering we experience in life is the result of sin, even if it is not our own personal sin. Hindus call suffering in response to the natural law of sin karma. Hindus teach we are locked into cycles of lifetimes of suffering in response to sin, or karma, and that we must take on suffering to atone. This is why hearing the apparition communicate the same idea to the children is troubling to me, especially when we know as Christians that Christ is our atonement.

Also, having experienced the fruit of a non-Christian religion, I have seen great, great, suffering, and I can promise you that the suffering of mind and body I witnessed was useless. It did nothing to atone for anyone’s sins. There is quite a difference between suffering for the sake of Christ, and suffering that is strengthened in faith, and the pure, complete destruction of lives I have witnessed. That kind of suffering is truly from the pits of hell.

The idea of suffering to atone for this sins of others, this is not the kind of suffering that Paul preached that we should rejoice in. Paul preached that if we suffer after accepting Christ as the appropriation for our sins, that we should suffer gladly, because of suffering builds character and brings one closer to God.

Romans 5 1-11 "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

 

[SPH1]

i saw an anti catholic marian video on youtube
youtube.com/watch?v=AnZIU4g6IHM

it discribes marian apparitions as demonic.

Didn’t look at the video, but I understand why anti-Catholic Protestants (is that redunant?) whould label any Marian apparation as demonic.

If Marian apparations were true, then what would that state … especially when the anti-Catholics don’t receive any?

 

[honeysuckle]

Didn’t look at the video, but I understand why anti-Catholic Protestants (is that redunant?) whould label any Marian apparation as demonic.

No, it would not be redundant, because clearly being Protestant does not mean a person is Anti-Catholic, anymore than being a Catholic means a person is Anti-Protestant.

If Marian apparations were true, then what would that state … especially when the anti-Catholics don’t receive any?

What you have said makes very little sense, but it does make me think to point out that there are a wide variety of spiritual and religious experiences throughout Christendom, all of which require testing to ensure they are authentically from God. For example, in the 1990s the Toronto Blessing of the Vineyard church spread throughout the US and Europe. I witnessed people speaking with and dancing with angels. I witnessed many prophecies. Discernment is a difficult task, it is very easy for us to be deceived if we do not remain humble and seek God and his righteousness before all else.

 

[surgei]

Didn’t look at the video, but I understand why anti-Catholic Protestants (is that redunant?) whould label any Marian apparation as demonic.

If Marian apparations were true, then what would that state … especially when the anti-Catholics don’t receive any?

What then do you do with the apparitions that the Coptic Church received and the Muslims verified? Does that attest to the ‘truth’ of the muslim faith?

 

[honeysuckle]

LOL.

Well, interestingly, I found this link. Hindu ceremonies are being performed at Fatima. That’s interesting considering my first reaction to hearing all of the words of the apparition to the children was that this was a Hindu theology, and definitely not Christian.

fatima.org/news/newsviews/060304rit.asp

 

[Church_Militant]

LOL.

Well, interestingly, I found this link. Hindu ceremonies are being performed at Fatima. That’s interesting considering my first reaction to hearing all of the words of the apparition to the children was that this was a Hindu theology, and definitely not Christian.

(I removed the link because I don’t want to give any kind of impression that they are at all credible.
CM)

Non source…that belongs to a suspended priest who is a raging wacko. That cite has zero credibility. I used to be on their mailing list and after I read their stuff a few times, it went from the mailbox to the garbage until it stopped coming.

 

[surgei]

LOL.

Well, interestingly, I found this link. Hindu ceremonies are being performed at Fatima. That’s interesting considering my first reaction to hearing all of the words of the apparition to the children was that this was a Hindu theology, and definitely not Christian.

Just because this hapened now does not mean that the origin of the site is in a hindu devil.
Perhaps you should try to get ahold of Clark Carltons Truth: What Every Roman Catholic Should Know About the Orthodox Church
Father has a great article about Fatima in it.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

my thoughts also. Why would Satan want to draw people closer to God?

Along the same thought: would satan pray with the seers? Mary such as in Lourdes, Fatima also prayed with the seers.

Could Satan praise God in the Our Father?:knight1:

 

[marymol]

The seers at Fatima had the extraordinary privilege of seeing our Bl.Mother , being shown the effects of sin - people going to hell…

As to our Lord not being mentioned in all her messages, read up the prayers in the beginning - " My God , I believe , I adore , I trust and I love thee …and beg pardon for those who do not …"

They yearned to do God’s will to an extraordinary degree , not just in words , but with all their will, even when it was very difficult …

And , this, in a world , where many were saying yes to the father below …and hence on the brink of the terrible sufferings that were to be allowed …for that is what he brings when he is invited …

And those little saints of heroic love for God knew this … and Bl.Mother too …that they would be willing to do all in their power , to try to love God, even in the midst of sufferings …Yet, as in that first Magnificat, and having reverence for our free will, she gently ask the children for their ’ yes’ …just like in Lourdes, when she promised St.Bernadette happiness not of this world but for next …when many live only for this world …

As to those shrines that were built, they are places offering God the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass - all the merits of The Son , on behalf of all our sins …

True , the call for penance is always difficult esp. in a narcisistic culture that tells us that even God is there to be
used -for wealth and fame !

Well, there were apparitions of our Lord to Sr.Lucy later on …and was told that for many of us , offering the daily trials of our lives is considerd as enough penance - our willingness to do His will …

May The New Year bring in the newness of grace for many that they can recognise His Mercy , esp. in The Mother He has given us !

 

[nsper7]

i saw an anti catholic marian video on youtube
youtube.com/watch?v=AnZIU4g6IHM

it discribes marian apparitions as demonic. I posted a comment that basically said that marian apparitions cannot be demonic because many of them produce miracles of healing and satan cannot perform miracles of healing or excorsism(think back to the bible when the phasasies called jesus demonic ) because “satan cannot drive out satan”

i also noted that the argument of “satan can appear as an angel of light” is not applicable to marian apparitions because mary is not an angel. are these good argument? what other arguments would you suggest to refute accusations like this?

To claim that all ‘apparitions’ are demonic goes against Scripture. Ask them if Samuel’s appearance to Saul in 1 Samuel 28 (note that what Saul did with necromancy was sinful, but never is Samuel’s appearance stated as being false or demonic) or Moses and Elijah’s appearance in Matthew 17, Mark 9 and Luke 9 was demonic?

Now, could Satan or one of his minions appear to someone looking like a human (whether Mary or anyone else)? In theory, it could occur, but if that apparition was performing true exorcism, then it could not, by Jesus’ own words, be a demonic apparition (Mark 3:23-26, Luke 11:17-20).

 

[johnstown_johnn]

looked at the website at the front of the clip. anti catholic. look to scott hahn or some other scholastic view. this has more fundamental issues than saying the aparitions are demonic.
Hail Holy Queen might be a good start.

Where the POPE is there is the Church.

 

[surgei]

Where the POPE is there is the Church.

What???

 

[Lev23]

Along the same thought: would satan pray with the seers? Mary such as in Lourdes, Fatima also prayed with the seers.

Could Satan praise God in the Our Father?:knight1:

Again, like I said in another thread, one has to go through this apparition of “our lady” to get to “God” or “Jesus”.

The Mary of the bible, in Luke 1:46-55, without a doubt gives praises to the only, true God, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Has any of these apparitions done the same? Does she speak ever speak of Israel? As a matter of fact, there is a “Our Lady of Palestine”, isn’t there? Even though the bible, even in the NT, refers to the land as “Israel.”

What the true Mary of the bible says of God-
** And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers.”**

 

[SPH1]

What then do you do with the apparitions that the Coptic Church received and the Muslims verified? Does that attest to the ‘truth’ of the muslim faith?

Don’t know your sources, but “no”, it wouldn’t verify the Muslim faith.

Verification means they didn’t actually receive apparations?

In any event, I don’t have to believe any apparation is valid or true.

 

[RomanCrusader]

I personally don’t put much stock in apparations. I think some other Catholics (unintentionally) border on idol-worship regarding these apparations.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Where the POPE is there is the Church.

You are aware that Surgei is paraphrasing St. Ignatius, our earliest reference to the Catholic Church, who doen’t even mention the bishop, let alone a pope, in his letter to Rome.

 

[Alexius]

You are aware that Surgei is paraphrasing St. Ignatius, our earliest reference to the Catholic Church, who doen’t even mention the bishop, let alone a pope, in his letter to Rome.

uch: :doh2:

Maybe he means the Pope of Alexandria…

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

An apparition can best be judged by its message. The only message that Mary has given in all of her apparations was the same as that at Cana, "Do whatever he tells you to do."
Deacon Ed B

 

[johnstown_johnn]

You are aware that Surgei is paraphrasing St. Ignatius, our earliest reference to the Catholic Church, who doen’t even mention the bishop, let alone a pope, in his letter to Rome.

If , by overwhelming force of arms, an anti-Christian group breaced St. Peter’s Basilica and all the Chuch buildings all over the world while the pope escaped to exile…The Church is where the pope is.