marian apparitions demonic?

[6glargento]

i saw an anti catholic marian video on youtube
youtube.com/watch?v=AnZIU4g6IHM

it discribes marian apparitions as demonic. I posted a comment that basically said that marian apparitions cannot be demonic because many of them produce miracles of healing and satan cannot perform miracles of healing or excorsism(think back to the bible when the phasasies called jesus demonic ) because “satan cannot drive out satan”

i also noted that the argument of “satan can appear as an angel of light” is not applicable to marian apparitions because mary is not an angel. are these good argument? what other arguments would you suggest to refute accusations like this?

 

[dosdog]

i saw an anti catholic marian video on youtube
youtube.com/watch?v=AnZIU4g6IHM

it discribes marian apparitions as demonic. I posted a comment that basically said that marian apparitions cannot be demonic because many of them produce miracles of healing and satan cannot perform miracles of healing or excorsism(think back to the bible when the phasasies called jesus demonic ) because “satan cannot drive out satan”

i also noted that the argument of “satan can appear as an angel of light” is not applicable to marian apparitions because mary is not an angel. are these good argument? what other arguments would you suggest to refute accusations like this?

campus.udayton.edu/mary//resources/aprindex.html
campus.udayton.edu/mary//resources/aprtable.html

 

[Eden]

Marian apparitions always bring believers closer to the Holy Trinity. That is clearly not something a demonic presence would do.

 

[carol_marie]

Marian apparitions always bring believers closer to the Holy Trinity. That is clearly not something a demonic presence would do.

my thoughts also. Why would Satan want to draw people closer to God?

 

[rtconstant]

Yeah, I have too agree. Even the apparitions that are unapproved seem too draw people closer to God and more fully into a moral and devotional life. If this is Satan’s plan to steal our souls too hell, he needs better advisors.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… i also noted that the argument of “satan can appear as an angel of light” is not applicable to marian apparitions because mary is not an angel. are these good argument? what other arguments would you suggest to refute accusations like this?

Hi 6glargento,

The “angel of light” argument is not a good one; in fact, it’s probably a complete waste of time, because it is irrelevant to a Protestant’s stance on marian apparitions.

Protestants are heavily focussed on the bible; it is their complete authority. There are no marian apparitions in the bible; therefore, a Protestant would automatically dismiss them, even if the apparition was accompanied with spectacular miracles and mass conversions. (I’ve seen some Protestant Web sites that regard these holy aspects of an apparition as Satan’s way of sugar coating a lie. I think they are just so stubborn.)

Protestants are really missing out on a beautiful phenomenon. And there is nothing they can do about it. They need to give up the “complete authority of the bible” argument and come back to the authority of the Catholic Church where the Holy Spirit can teach them new things.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

i saw an anti catholic marian video on youtube
youtube.com/watch?v=AnZIU4g6IHM

it discribes marian apparitions as demonic. I posted a comment that basically said that marian apparitions cannot be demonic because many of them produce miracles of healing and satan cannot perform miracles of healing or excorsism(think back to the bible when the phasasies called jesus demonic ) because “satan cannot drive out satan”

i also noted that the argument of “satan can appear as an angel of light” is not applicable to marian apparitions because mary is not an angel. are these good argument? what other arguments would you suggest to refute accusations like this?

There have been pseudo-apparitions of Christ - why not of Mary ?​

The devil can perfectly well work miracles and do some good by them, in order to do far greater harm by not having been detected. A confidence trickster can easily give a man a fiver, in order to swindle him out of his credit card. The devil will endure a man’s increase in virtue, if he judges that he can ruin him all the more throughly by corrupting them. ##

AFAIR, writers on these matters, Saints included, agree on the truth of these points. ##

 

[RPConover]

There have been pseudo-apparitions of Christ - why not of Mary ?​

The devil can perfectly well work miracles and do some good by them, in order to do far greater harm by not having been detected. A confidence trickster can easily give a man a fiver, in order to swindle him out of his credit card. The devil will endure a man’s increase in virtue, if he judges that he can ruin him all the more throughly by corrupting them. ##

AFAIR, writers on these matters, Saints included, agree on the truth of these points. ##

AMEN!!!

 

[Todd_Easton]

Apparitions of holy people are not new. Samuel appeared to the medium of Endor and spoke with Saul. (1 Samuel 28:7-19) Moses and Elijah appeared to the Apostles Peter, James and John. (Matthew 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30) Onias and Jeremiah appeared to Judas Maccabeus in a vision. (2 Maccabees 15:12-16) So, it certainly would not be out of character for God to allow Mary to appear to someone.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Some claimed private revelation (apparitions/messages of Mary or Jesus) are true and others are false.

Of the false ones, most are caused by fallen angels deceiving human persons. This is clear because numerous claimed apparitions of Mary or of Jesus have messages that teach abject heresy or that are schismatic.

For example:

Louise Tomkiel - a message claiming that St. Joseph had an Immaculate Conception and was sinless and ever-virgin from conception (heretical)

John Leary - messages saying that the next Pope after John Paul II would be an evil Antipope associated with the Antichrist (schismatic)

the Two Patricks - message saying that Pope Benedict XVI is the Antichrist (schismatic and heretical)

the Silent Voice - messages claiming that when Jesus died, the Trinity ceased to be three Persons and became only two Persons; also messages denying that all persons receive the particular judgment immediately after death (heretical)

Marisa Rossi and Claudio Gatti - (schismatic) he is a validly ordained priest; she claims messages from Jesus saying that Gatti has been ordained a Bishop directly by the apparitions themselves, also numerous messages call him a Bishop; he was laicized by Cardinal Ratzinger and Pope John Paul II.

Annie Kirkwood - messages claiming that Mary was not ever-virgin, that she and Joseph had many other children besides Jesus, that she was reincarnated through many lifetimes (heretical)

I.A.N. and the Weeping Madonna of Rockingham - messages claiming that Jesus has already returned to earth in secret and now walks the earth (heretical)

Fr. Andrew Wingate ‘the Trumpeter’ - messages claiming that the Rapture has been occurring for years, but with only children being taken (heretical).

Valentina of Sydney, Australia - messages claiming that the next Pope after John Paul II would be a heretic who changes the doctrines of the Church for the worse in accord with modern society (schismatic).

Frances M. Klug - claims that Saint Joseph is the Holy Spirit, and that he will come again to the world by being born again of a woman (heretical).

Veronica Lueken - a message claiming that God was not always a Trinity of Three Persons (heretical); also claims that a Pope would be the Antichrist (heretical and schismatic).

There are many other examples of herectical, schismatic, false and absurd teachings found in messages from claimed apparitions of Jesus or Mary.

Therefore, some claimed private revelations are not from Heaven.

Now many of the above claimed apparitions are accompanied by various signs and wonders and claimed miracles. So it is not true that any claimed apparition accompanied by signs and wonders and claimed miracles is from Jesus or Mary. God does permit fallen angels to deceive human persons, even to the extent of presenting themselves as if they were Jesus or Mary.

Ron Conte

 

[puzzleannie]

even the Church admits that some “alleged” marian apparitions can be of diabolic origin, because that is one of the verdicts that may be given when the Church discerns a reported apparition or locution. Either the event may be judged to be of heavenly origin and authentic, or it can be a matter of fraud or deliberate misrepresentation, or it can be a purely natural psychological perception of a disturbed or innocent person with no supernatural basis, or it can be of demonic origin. the last 3 of course prove that it was not an authentic apparition or locution.

Not having seen the website in question, and as a general principle avoiding all such anti-Catholic sites, I can’t judge its content. When the Church judges that an apparition such as Lourdes or Fatima is authentic, it has rendered its judgment that the event was from heaven so the case is closed.

An argument against an approved apparition is an argument against the authority of the Church to make such a judgement and pronouncement, and should be debated as such. Such a debate should point out, furthermore, that an approved apparition is private revelation, adds nothing to Divine Revelation or to Church doctrine, and the lay faithful are free to disregard it.

and yes, Satan is capable of working miracles and cures in order to delude the faithful. Read the story of Simon Magus in Acts, or the magicians who debated with Moses. by themselves miracles are not evidence of the authenticity of an alleged apparition. the marian website cited at U of Dayton gives great info on the whole topic.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Marian apparitions always bring believers closer to the Holy Trinity. That is clearly not something a demonic presence would do.

Absolutly. Why would Satan ask people to pray,
“O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, and lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy. Amen.”

 

[water]

My simple answer to these people is Satan trying to lure them into thinking that apparition is demonic because they don’t want people to turn to God.

Obviously, more people are devoted to God because of the apparition. If this were demonic, then God in Heaven would have a good laugh at the Satan’s brilliant plan.

I wouldn’t waste too much time about this anti-catholic group. Those who want to seek truth will find the truth; but for those who hate Catholic so much, we just need to pray for them.

 

[rtconstant]

Yeah again, while all of this “what is Satan capable of?” Is neat theory but in the end we have to look at the fruits. People are being drawn into devotion to God. I really fail to see how that getting thousands of people too turn to the Lord helps Satan in the slightest.

 

[SolaFide]

i saw an anti catholic marian video on youtube
youtube.com/watch?v=AnZIU4g6IHM

it discribes marian apparitions as demonic. I posted a comment that basically said that marian apparitions cannot be demonic because many of them produce miracles of healing and satan cannot perform miracles of healing or excorsism(think back to the bible when the phasasies called jesus demonic ) because “satan cannot drive out satan”

i also noted that the argument of “satan can appear as an angel of light” is not applicable to marian apparitions because mary is not an angel. are these good argument? what other arguments would you suggest to refute accusations like this?

Of course Satan can produce miracles of healing! What do you think this reference is?

Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, **and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ **
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

2Th 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
2Th 2:11 **For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, **

and this:

Rev. 13:1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.
Rev 13:3 ** I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed **. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 ** He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.**
Rev 13:14 **And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs **which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.

About the “angel” of light question. The word “angel” only means “messenger” so it could be translated that Satan can masquerade as a “messenger of light.” Of course the Marian apparitions aren’t Mary! They’re demons masquerading as Mary! No, Mary is not an angel but the demons are getting people to believe it’s Mary. No one knows what Mary looked like so the demons can make themselves look like whatever they want and tell people it’s Mary.

 

[rtconstant]

Of course Satan can produce miracles of healing! What do you think this reference is?

Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, **and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ **
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

Actually that doesn’t imply at all that miracles of healing come from Satan. God is more that capable of working miracles through agencies that are not in communion with Him. God spoke through an *** once that doesn’t mean that the *** was a believer. The vehicle through which God can work His grace is irrelevant what is more important is God’s desire and the Faith of the person being cured.

If you’re still not convinced then take a look at what you quoted. The verse you have there references casting out Demons, an act Jesus specifically stated that Satan cannot/will not do. Therefore the source of the exorcism would need to be something other than Satan.

2Th 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
2Th 2:11 **For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, **

While those are important verses all they really point to is that one should pay attention to the fruits of an event, and look at how they play out in context of the Faith as it has always been believed. If the event encourages the Faithful to lives of greater devotion to God and souls are won to the Lord and no new gospels are presented then one should feel pretty safe.

 

[rtconstant]

and this:

Rev. 13:1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.
Rev 13:3 ** I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed **. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 ** He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.**
Rev 13:14 **And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs **which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.

Well I should think that the problem with the above verses should be rather obvious. In order to use these verses to back up your position one would need to assume that the verses are speaking litterally. In other words, we have to assume that a monstrous beast wearing crowns will appear that will have a physically wounded head that it will then regenerate causing people to immediately worship it. I don’t know about you but I’m figuring that the beast is symbolic as is its wound.

If however, you do see these verses in a literalistic way it still doesn’t really help you because the Beast is curing itself. No one ever claimed that Evil doesn’t help itself however, helping others and giving the credit to God is a completely different ball game.

Also take a look at the miracles of the second beast His acts are destructive acts. No doubt impressive but they are not miracles of love.

About the “angel” of light question. The word “angel” only means “messenger” so it could be translated that Satan can masquerade as a “messenger of light.” Of course the Marian apparitions aren’t Mary! They’re demons masquerading as Mary! No, Mary is not an angel but the demons are getting people to believe it’s Mary. No one knows what Mary looked like so the demons can make themselves look like whatever they want and tell people it’s Mary.

Well the angel/messenger thing is really neither here nor there. As to your assertion that Marian apparitions are demonic in nature you would really have a hard time backing that up in any reasonable way. Not believing in them at all I could understand, but seeing them as demonic seems a little desperate. I suppose I can understand though, it must be comforting to see Satan as toothless, naive and dim. Working hard to deceive people with miracles that in reality draw them closer to God.

 

[tm30]

Obviously, more people are devoted to God because of the apparition. If this were demonic, then God in Heaven would have a good laugh at the Satan’s brilliant plan.

Certain Marian “apparitions” have done a brilliant job of drawing people closer to God and setting them against their own bishops, who are to be obeyed. That’s a defacto schism - a much greater victory for Satan than the extra rosaries people may be saying. I’d say it’s quite a brilliant plan since so many have committed mortal sin by being deliberately insubordinate to certain bishops who speak for the Church on local matters. If someone knowingly places their allegiance in a private revelation over the local bishop, no amount of rosaries and pilgrimages can earn merit.

 

[tm30]

About the “angel” of light question. The word “angel” only means “messenger” so it could be translated that Satan can masquerade as a “messenger of light.” Of course the Marian apparitions aren’t Mary! They’re demons masquerading as Mary! No, Mary is not an angel but the demons are getting people to believe it’s Mary. No one knows what Mary looked like so the demons can make themselves look like whatever they want and tell people it’s Mary.

Utter rubbish. Were Peter, James, and John witnessing one of your demons masquerading as Moses and Elijah during the Transfiguration?

Of course Satan can produce miracles of healing! What do you think this reference is?

Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, **and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ **
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS

Because someone thinks they’re performing miracles doesn’t mean they are. Demons cannot perform supernatural miracles because they cannot create. Demons rely on natural phenomena to present the appearance of a miracle, which is what takes place during many false Marian apparitions. Supernatural miracles, such as the immediate drying of a crowd of 70,000 witnesses after a deluge at Fatima is a supernatural miracle that only God can do. Bone and muscle tissue that suddenly heals and reconstitutes itself is a supernatural miracle that only God can do. People regaining their sight while their retinas are still detached constitutes a supernatural miracle. Demons cannot accomplish any of these.

Someone being cured of a bad back is likely not a supernatural miracle. Someone walking with a shattered spinal cord is.

Thus, those who come to Jesus and proclaim that they are performing miracles, are automatic liars, because true miracles can only be performed by God THROUGH a vessel such as Peter, or the Virgin Mary, or the communion of saints. This is the message of the passage you site above. The Virgin Mary has indeed appeared in many places, and has indeed been the conduit through which God has performed many miracles.

 

[tm30]

In addition, the greatest supernatural miracle of all - the transubstantiation - is the power of God working THROUGH His priest.

It’s acceptable to say that someone is cured by their doctor, but it’s really the medicine doing the curing. Likewise, it’s acceptable to say that a miracle was performed by Mary though it’s actually God who is performing it through her.

The problem is, most people do not discern between “miracles” and “supernatural” phenomena. It’s a miracle I get to work on time in the morning. It’s a supernatural miracle if I get to work on time and I’m still in bed.