Marian apparitions

[Koineman]

Hello all,

I’ve been exploring the Catholic Church after having been away for about 27 years as a Protestant. In the course of my journey, I have come to accept fully the eucharistic and transubstantiation, and I have come to find that the CC’s teaching on justification is not as bad as I once thought. I still struggle with that to a certain degree, but actually one aspect of Catholic teaching I struggle with even more is Mariology.

Recently I was looking into the Marian apparitions as well as reading up on Mariology in general. (In fact, I’m enrolled in a graduate level course on Mariology this fall.) Although I can accept the teachings about Mary’s intercession, her being the Mother of God (theotokos), the Immaculate Conception and even the Assumption, I was disturbed by what I’ve read regarding some of the Marian apparitions. From what I’ve read, it seems that the apparitions practically ignored Christ, put Mary in the spotlight, and spoke about peace and unity among all religions. One video I watched showed a procession at one of the pilgrimage sites in which a statue of Mary was held on top of a platform; other footage showed huge crowds of people with lit candles, hoping to see or hear from the Blessed Mother. These kinds of things make it seem as if Marian devotion–at least at these pilgrimage sites–has become another religion in itself, with Mary at the center and in the spotlight.

I’m not trying to attack and bash, but I have repeatedly encountered this difficulty during my exploration of the CC. If anything keeps me from being fully united with the Catholic Church, this excessive emphasis on Mary would likely do it.

 

[Pomander]

Hi there-

I think generalizing about Marian apparitions can easily confuse someone. If you are interested in researching them, do so on a case by case basis. Indeed, there are authentic and false apparitions. Like the Church in these matters, one must be cautious.

If an apparition goes against Church doctrine, it certainly is a red flag. I don’t see how your examples below (the procession, candles, etc) show that attendees “practically ignored Christ”. Approved apparitions continually show that The Blessed Mother points the way to Christ in her messages/example. If they didn’t, it would certainly be another red flag. There is nothing inherently wrong with honoring The Blessed Mother and showing devotion at an approved site. Bear in mind that where TBM appears, Satan isn’t far behind. A friend of mine went to Lourdes and said that there were plenty of tourist traps to mislead/profit from pilgrims. Seeing this would make anyone skeptical.

As you know, you don’t have to believe in apparitions to be a faithful, practicing Catholic. If they make you uncomfortable, don’t focus on it for now. Or, take away what speaks to you.

Lastly, perhaps you could acknowledge that resistance to Mary could be some remaining thoughts associated with your former Protestant practice (Marian devotion is just that…not a separate religion). You could ask Jesus to help you know His mother, if that is what He would like. It sounds to me like you are trying, in good faith, to do the right thing, and how can Christ not value that tremendously? Ask Him, watch yourself so you aren’t disrespectful to TBM, and be at peace.

All the best,
P.

 

[The_Bucket]

Mary is a great saint and the Queen of Heaven. But she is no replacement for our Lord in any of His Persons. Being the Mother of Christ she is a great intercessor for us. We revere her because she is the perfect example of virtue for all of us not divinely conceived.

The cult of Mary, as with the cult of any saints, can be off-putting for those who are not part of the Church. I understand that. But as a Catholic I see Mary as being my chief ally in pleading with her Son to provide His great grace and mercy for us. If you find strength in knowing that other people on this Earth are praying for you, how much more strength will you have that Mary is praying for you and for all of us and asking her Son directly for His grace!

Mary was indeed sinless but she is not God nor a replacement for a relationship with Christ. She is, however, a tremendous vessel for our prayers as the Lord cannot refuse requests from the one He chose to be the mother of Christ. Underneath all of the extroverted reverence for Mary and devotion to her is knowledge that she would be nothing if God did not elevate her to the level that He did. Sometimes we Catholics simply find her more approachable than going directly to God; while He is infinitely merciful He is also infinitely just. People can have difficulty in melding these facets and fear of the Lord can hinder a personal relationship with Him. That’s where Mary steps in and tells us basically “Don’t be afraid. The Son of God was and is my child. I will help you come to Him.” For that she deserves our thanks and our reverence but ultimately all the grace and power comes from God.

 

[Dorothy]

Hello all,

I’ve been exploring the Catholic Church after having been away for about 27 years as a Protestant. In the course of my journey, I have come to accept fully the eucharistic and transubstantiation, and I have come to find that the CC’s teaching on justification is not as bad as I once thought. I still struggle with that to a certain degree, but actually one aspect of Catholic teaching I struggle with even more is Mariology.

Recently I was looking into the Marian apparitions as well as reading up on Mariology in general. (In fact, I’m enrolled in a graduate level course on Mariology this fall.) Although I can accept the teachings about Mary’s intercession, her being the Mother of God (theotokos), the Immaculate Conception and even the Assumption, I was disturbed by what I’ve read regarding some of the Marian apparitions. From what I’ve read, it seems that the apparitions practically ignored Christ, put Mary in the spotlight, and spoke about peace and unity among all religions. One video I watched showed a procession at one of the pilgrimage sites in which a statue of Mary was held on top of a platform; other footage showed huge crowds of people with lit candles, hoping to see or hear from the Blessed Mother. These kinds of things make it seem as if Marian devotion–at least at these pilgrimage sites–has become another religion in itself, with Mary at the center and in the spotlight.

I’m not trying to attack and bash, but I have repeatedly encountered this difficulty during my exploration of the CC. If anything keeps me from being fully united with the Catholic Church, this excessive emphasis on Mary would likely do it.

The way I see it, we cannot stop the individual behavior of people around Marian apparitions. It has to do with their own spiritual maturity or lack of it. I hope you do not allow such behavior to eclipse the truth of what the Church teaches.

Mary, as Mother of the Lord, always puts the emphasis on Jesus and says “Do whatever He tells you.”

 

[CaptFun]

Hello all,

I’ve been exploring the Catholic Church after having been away for about 27 years as a Protestant. In the course of my journey, I have come to accept fully the eucharistic and transubstantiation, and I have come to find that the CC’s teaching on justification is not as bad as I once thought. I still struggle with that to a certain degree, but actually one aspect of Catholic teaching I struggle with even more is Mariology.

Recently I was looking into the Marian apparitions as well as reading up on Mariology in general. (In fact, I’m enrolled in a graduate level course on Mariology this fall.) Although I can accept the teachings about Mary’s intercession, her being the Mother of God (theotokos), the Immaculate Conception and even the Assumption, I was disturbed by what I’ve read regarding some of the Marian apparitions. From what I’ve read, it seems that the apparitions practically ignored Christ, put Mary in the spotlight, and spoke about peace and unity among all religions. One video I watched showed a procession at one of the pilgrimage sites in which a statue of Mary was held on top of a platform; other footage showed huge crowds of people with lit candles, hoping to see or hear from the Blessed Mother. These kinds of things make it seem as if Marian devotion–at least at these pilgrimage sites–has become another religion in itself, with Mary at the center and in the spotlight.

I’m not trying to attack and bash, but I have repeatedly encountered this difficulty during my exploration of the CC. If anything keeps me from being fully united with the Catholic Church, this excessive emphasis on Mary would likely do it.

Seek and you shall find! Congratulations on your putting learning more about the Lord
as such a high priority. Pretty wise.

Regarding Mary - on one hand not everyone is called to a special devotion to her, and
the Creed is brief, simply remarking “born of the Virgin Mary …” and THAT as a detail of Jesus’ life.

On the other hand, Mary, though not spoken of a tremendous LOT* in scripture - is still quietly found at the most important moments of Human History (* - not a reliable dismissal of Mary though, since just four books of the 72 are centered specifically on Jesus’ life.)!

Yet now you seem called to take a class to better understand! I hope it’s a good class. Go ahead and keep discerning.

Not every “Marian appearance” is approved by the Church. They discern things even more critically than you might actually.

Like you, the Church examines if any sound Church teaching is contradicted by the examined “appearances;” as well as any claims of miracles, uttered prophecies, seemingly fulfilled prophecies etc. Of course the Church also looks to see if the phenomena is “worthy of belief” due to the facts and the fruits of the spiritual gifts
(e.g. supporting the Gospel, conversions to the faith resulting, return of piety to a
worldly area).

AND even when the Church permits devotions, it is true that SOME might abuse the privelege or add their own errors to that which is true or allowed, and cause onlookers
to wonder about the veracity of the whole thing due to such individual sins (of profiteering, say; or superstitions of the ignorant barely faithful).

Meanwhile - the Church is not mean-spirited in DOING vigorous scrutiny on these matters.
When hearing the accounts of poor simple Juan Diego (at Guadaloupe), humble Bernadette (at Lourdes) and the children (Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta) at Fatima - the Church “inquisitors” (pardon the emotionally charged adjective) almost seemed to badger the appearance witnesses with multiple sessions, change of focus questions, andsoforth.

Their skepticism (yet not dismissal) of the seers led to more evidence and “hard won” permissions of devotions once the “jury was in” so to speak.

Considered in such scrutiny is usually: Is/are this/these witness(es) credible and consistent? Do THEY truly believe they’ve seen or experienced something? IF they have
experienced something supernatural - is it of God or something that leads to sins?

What does the local Bishop say (if anything) about the (new) phenomena being examined?
Do the “seers” have a true devotion or are they visibly, observably sly or rebellious in their duties?

When an appearance or miracle of Mary is involved - what is HER message, does it support or augment Christ’s Gospel, encourage repentance (like Fatima), conversion (like Guadaloupe) or affirm a Church teaching (Lourdes).

Jesus gave Mary as a gift to His most faithful apostle (John) from His cross. And John to her as a son. John was devoted to her and took her into his care. Drawing close to Mary he probably learned much more about Our Lord.

You may or may NOT be that part of the body called to have a special devotion to Mary as part of your faith walk. Then again, here you are being drawn in to study the matter
more deeply.

As a person who has been stupendously blessed via an unlooked-for but gradually revealed relationship with Our Blessed Mother (leading to a deeper appreciation of God’s desire to have a more intimate relationship with US!) I am excited for you.

Be discerning - never cynical. Be open to the special treasures of God a Marian devotion can bring. She is the first Christian (first human to accept Jesus into her life!) and her “Do whatever He tells you …” quote is a most perfect synopsis of Christianity and why she is
the patron saint of the Church. Handmaid and leader. A treasury chest “full of Grace” and
of the greatest treasure (Christ Himself).

Satan has enmity with her - and vice versa - put there by God. Satan will tempt people to
worship badly, blasphemously, incorrectly or not at all. Mary accepts God’s call fully, and tells others too. The “Lord is with (her)” and she is always found near Him, or searching for Him, or wanting to be closer to Him, suffering with Him and supporting Him when
most abandoned Him.

These are lessons the enemy doesn’t want us to have. Like the birds of Jesus’ parable
they swoop down on any Marian insight that might lead one to God more quickly.

You will notice that the anti-Marian spirit is often disturbed. Angry. Suspicious (as opposed to honestly discerning truth). Prideful and dismissive.

While people with a true Marian devotion SHARE HER love of the Lord as number ONE
and grow in Holiness day by day “pondering in their hearts” His mysteries and serving
others in His name.

When one doesn’t know how to feel about Mary, a good rule of thumb is " are my feelings about the Blessed Mother closer to Jesus’ or Satan’s?" It should be easy to discern and make corrections if necessary. Once the spirit is correct the other gifts can follow.

 

[robwar]

Hello all,

I’ve been exploring the Catholic Church after having been away for about 27 years as a Protestant. In the course of my journey, I have come to accept fully the eucharistic and transubstantiation, and I have come to find that the CC’s teaching on justification is not as bad as I once thought. I still struggle with that to a certain degree, but actually one aspect of Catholic teaching I struggle with even more is Mariology.

Recently I was looking into the Marian apparitions as well as reading up on Mariology in general. (In fact, I’m enrolled in a graduate level course on Mariology this fall.) Although I can accept the teachings about Mary’s intercession, her being the Mother of God (theotokos), the Immaculate Conception and even the Assumption, I was disturbed by what I’ve read regarding some of the Marian apparitions. From what I’ve read, it seems that the apparitions practically ignored Christ, put Mary in the spotlight, and spoke about peace and unity among all religions. One video I watched showed a procession at one of the pilgrimage sites in which a statue of Mary was held on top of a platform; other footage showed huge crowds of people with lit candles, hoping to see or hear from the Blessed Mother. These kinds of things make it seem as if Marian devotion–at least at these pilgrimage sites–has become another religion in itself, with Mary at the center and in the spotlight.

I’m not trying to attack and bash, but I have repeatedly encountered this difficulty during my exploration of the CC. If anything keeps me from being fully united with the Catholic Church, this excessive emphasis on Mary would likely do it.

Study the approved Marian apparitions. Read about what the messages really were
The ones approved by the Church which include Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe (the big ones) because the message in them was not about peace and unity amoung all religions.
Especially the Fatima message, were more about repentance, praying, turning your life around. it is easy to look at something like a procession at Fatima (that is what I am assuming you were viewing in the video) and think it is all about Mary and not Jesus.
Remember, the church does not require you to follow or believe in Marian apparitions.
Some of the above mentioned ones came at a time of great crisis. Guadalupe came and actually prevented a war from breaking out between the natives and the Spanish. Fatima
had several warnings about WW2 and a coming war as well as warnings about communism. Lourdes was a very depressed time in Frances after the French revolution and Napolean. If you look at the messages, look at the historical happenings at the time, look at how the apparitions affected the visionaries themselves and how they ended up living their lives, you might see and understand them. Again the Church does an extremely careful investigation of any Marian apparition before approving of one. Continue to read and investigate and thank for asking.

 

[R_C]

Has the Church expressed a favorable opinion on those apparitions you mention?

You will be surprised at the answer. The Church is very careful in discerning Marian apparitions, and as Catholics we are not obliged to believe in those apparitions.

You may want to find out (and I am sure you will) exactly what is it that as Catholics we are called to believe - you mention the Immaculate Conception, the honor of Mother of God, and the Assumption, and that is excellent.

There is a great confusion on the hiperdulia that we give to the Blessed Virgin - considering her above the saints, but below God - and it would be so much easier if we consider that it was God Himself who loved her in a very special way, and if we consider that by her words of consent, “fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum”, the Word of God was made flesh - which is why the Holy Spirit spoke through Elizabeth and said: “blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.”

---

“Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.”
And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother, for I will not refuse you.””

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Della]

The highest virtue is love–of God and neighbor, yes? When we properly order our love towards God first all other loves fall into their proper place. What you have seen in the videos is expressions of love for God who thought of Mary before the foundations of the world to be the New Eve, the first disciple of Christ, the spotless Virgin who lived the life of Christ in perfection. That is what attracts devotees to Mary, not for herself, but for what, as she put it, what God accomplished for and through her–the Incarnation who is our redeemer and savior.

When we love we show it or it is no love at all. We show our family members we love them with words, kindly deeds, kisses, longing for them when separated, etc. It is the same in the Family of God, of which Mary is the Mother. We love her because Christ loved her, we love her because she is our Mother and sister, exemplar of faith, hope, and charity. She is more our mother than our biological mother for she was the instrument God chose to incarnate his Son as one of us and we will spend eternity with Jesus and Mary and all the Saints because her fiat negated Eve’s disobedient “no”.

As a former Protestant who had no understanding of these things it took me years to incorporate this kind of theology into my thinking, my outlook, my very being. I suggest you ask Mary to introduce herself to you. You’ll be surprised how much she understands about your dilemma, your reservations and unfamiliarity with her and Catholic understanding of her place within our salvation. She is a gentle teacher and a patient one–one you will grow to love as Jesus does and as the Church teaches we should.

 

[Nelka]

Abandoning the Mother is but one step from abandoning the Son.

 

[Koineman]

When I mentioned earlier how the Marian apparitions seemed to push Christ into the background, this is what I meant:

At Fatima, one of the “secrets” Mary told said:

“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go.** To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. **If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she [sic] will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. **In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. **The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.” (from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima)

The boldfaced portions point out what I’m referring to. This message seems centered entirely on Mary. Nothing about Christ here. Why wouldn’t Mary point the children to Christ? Why would she say that souls will be saved by devotion to her immaculate heart rather than by faith in Christ? Christ is not being pointed to at all.

The apparition at Lourdes told Bernadette Soubirous, “I am the Immaculate Conception.” (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Lourdes) Again, why would Mary focus on herself so much–and that in a way that sounds so much like one of Jesus’ “I am” statements from the Bible?

This is why these things seem doubtful to me. Now I realize that the Catholic Church does not require its members to believe in these apparitions, but all the same, it bothers me that the Church approves of these things in spite of the problematic things I pointed out. I find it disturbing that the Church, in trying to discern whether these apparitions were authentic, did not seem to have as one of its criteria that Mary should point people to her Son and not make anything of herself at all.

 

[Koineman]

Abandoning the Mother is but one step from abandoning the Son.

Really? For 27 years I had no Marian devotion in my life, and I never abandoned Christ during that time–assuming you mean some kind of full and final abandonment.

Statements like this one are what make me–and probably other Protestants–concerned about what seem to be excesses in Marian devotion. In this post, you practically make devotion to the Mother equal to devotion to the Son. You tie the two so closely together that to abandon the former is to come dangerously close to abandoning the latter. Sorry, I don’t buy that, and I am not sure that the CC intends to teach that, either.

 

[Della]

When I mentioned earlier how the Marian apparitions seemed to push Christ into the background, this is what I meant:

At Fatima, one of the “secrets” Mary told said:

“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go.** To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. **If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she [sic] will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. **In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. **The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.” (from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima)

The boldfaced portions point out what I’m referring to. This message seems centered entirely on Mary. Nothing about Christ here. Why wouldn’t Mary point the children to Christ? Why would she say that souls will be saved by devotion to her immaculate heart rather than by faith in Christ? Christ is not being pointed to at all.

The apparition at Lourdes told Bernadette Soubirous, “I am the Immaculate Conception.” (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Lourdes) Again, why would Mary focus on herself so much–and that in a way that sounds so much like one of Jesus’ “I am” statements from the Bible?

This is why these things seem doubtful to me. Now I realize that the Catholic Church does not require its members to believe in these apparitions, but all the same, it bothers me that the Church approves of these things in spite of the problematic things I pointed out. I find it disturbing that the Church, in trying to discern whether these apparitions were authentic, did not seem to have as one of its criteria that Mary should point people to her Son and not make anything of herself at all.

Each of these statements require more comment than can be made in one post. I hardly feel up to the task, but I can say this, that Mary was speaking as an ambassador for her Son, and that devotion to her leads to worship of God. And what does worship require but sacrifice, the sacrifice of the Eucharist which Christ gave us to impart saving grace to us. What Mary is stating is that her part in the Incarnation was ordained by God to remake man into the image of her Son. If we draw close to Mary she draws us close to her Son because God chose to be Incarnated in her. She is confirming the Incarnation of the Redeemer of man and the means of salvation. As Catholics, those who received her words understood that she is a conduit and not the source–that devotion to Mary, who distributes the graces God gave her to give to men, such as softening hearts towards her Son, makes us more receptive to conforming ourselves to him. Mary has an intricate part in our salvation. She didn’t just give birth and God was done with her. Her whole life was dedicated to him and his mission. Devotion to her enlivens in us this same desire for holiness for she is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, who continually brings Christ to birth and nourishes him within the lives of believers.

 

[Della]

Really? For 27 years I had no Marian devotion in my life, and I never abandoned Christ during that time–assuming you mean some kind of full and final abandonment.

Statements like this one are what make me–and probably other Protestants–concerned about what seem to be excesses in Marian devotion. In this post, you practically make devotion to the Mother equal to devotion to the Son. You tie the two so closely together that to abandon the former is to come dangerously close to abandoning the latter. Sorry, I don’t buy that, and I am not sure that the CC intends to teach that, either.

If I might answer for Nelka, what is meant by that statement is that abadoning Mary as the Mother of God leads to abandoning Jesus as the Son of God. And this has been shown to be true for those groups that not only reject any acknowledgement of Mary, but have gone so far as to deny the divinity of Christ. The title Theotokos was given to her not merely to honor Mary, although it does that, too, but to firmly establish that Jesus was fully God and fully human when he was conceived in Mary’s womb. The Arian heresy is an old one, but it never really died out. It’s alive and well in those groups that have abandoned Mary, as well as Christ’s divinity, you see. I hope that helps.

 

[Andrew1980]

Koineman,

I didn’t have a chance to read through the whole thread, so I appologize if this has already been addressed. One area that I think you could reflect on is the Catholic belief that God has chosen Mary as his conduit for his grace. Clearly, God could have created Jesus just as he had created Adam. There was no reason why God had to have Jesus born of a woman. But God did choose to grant the greatest gift to humanity through Mary. Through Mary, God has chosen to grant us the graces we need on this earth. This is similar to the old testment and how the people would go to Moses and Aaron for prayers.

I know alot of people get hung up (especially since the reformation) on Mary’s role as taught by the church, but I went ahead and added some quotes from EARLY church father’s to help show that this teaching has been around since some of the earliest times of the church.

St. Justin Martyr (d.165), the early Church’s first great apologist, describes Mary as the “obedient virgin” through whom humanity receives its Savior, in contrast to Eve, the “disobedient virgin,” who brings death and disobedience to the human race:

“As Eve was seduced by the speech of an angel, so as to flee God in transgressing his word, so also Mary received the good tidings by means of the angel’s speech, so as to be God within her, being obedient to this word. And though the one had disobeyed God, yet the other was drawn to obey him; that of the virgin Eve, the virgin Mary might become the advocate and as by a virgin the human race had been bound to death, by a virgin it is saved, the balance being preserved- a virgin’s disobedience by a virgin’ obedience.” (Against Heresies, 3, 19) (130 A.D.)

One of the oldest catacombs contains a drawing of the Madonna and Child dating back to the second century, and the oldest known request to Mary, the “Sub Tuum Praesidium”, dates back to at least 300 AD!

*We fly to your patronage, O holy Theotokos2;
despise not our petition in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O ever-glorious and blessed Virgin. *

LINKS BELOW:
piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/heart_mary/mary_early_church_miravalle.htm
staycatholic.com/ecf_immaculate_conception.htm
davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_in_the_early_church.htm

 

[Koineman]

If I might answer for Nelka, what is meant by that statement is that abadoning Mary as the Mother of God leads to abandoning Jesus as the Son of God. And this has been shown to be true for those groups that not only reject any acknowledgement of Mary, but have gone so far as to deny the divinity of Christ. The title Theotokos was given to her not merely to honor Mary, although it does that, too, but to firmly establish that Jesus was fully God and fully human when he was conceived in Mary’s womb. The Arian heresy is an old one, but it never really died out. It’s alive and well in those groups that have abandoned Mary, as well as Christ’s divinity, you see. I hope that helps.

That clarifies it somewhat, as all Nelka talked about was abandoning Mary, so perhaps it was just oversimplified.

Having said that, I’m aware of the historical background to the theotokos doctrine (response to the heretic Nestorius). All the same, I can assure you that many Protestants don’t call Mary “Mother of God” or even think much of her in that way yet hold firmly to the deity of Christ. I was one of those for many years.

 

[Koineman]

Koineman,

I didn’t have a chance to read through the whole thread, so I appologize if this has already been addressed. One area that I think you could reflect on is the Catholic belief that God has chosen Mary as his conduit for his grace.

Then why didn’t the apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima point to the One through Whom grace and truth came–Jesus Christ? It still doesn’t add up. If they had said something like, “I was at the foot of the cross, suffering with my Son as He brought about redemption for sinful mankind. I implore you: Flee to Him for forgiveness and salvation! Repent!” I’d be inclined to regard them as authentic.

I’m not disputing the Catholic practice of praying to Mary, just the CC’s acceptance of these events as authentic.

 

[Cryptic1]

Really? For 27 years I had no Marian devotion in my life, and I never abandoned Christ during that time–assuming you mean some kind of full and final abandonment.

Statements like this one are what make me–and probably other Protestants–concerned about what seem to be excesses in Marian devotion. In this post, you practically make devotion to the Mother equal to devotion to the Son. You tie the two so closely together that to abandon the former is to come dangerously close to abandoning the latter. Sorry, I don’t buy that, and I am not sure that the CC intends to teach that, either.

Dear friend,

Your commentary on Marian devotions seems to have struck a nerve and if I may, I would like to add my dissenting voice to this forum topic. As a former Catholic, I understand the powerful appeal the Blessed Mother has within the confines of the Catholic church for all Catholics are taught early on that Mary holds a highly exalted place next to Jesus, by virture of her being his mother. So to raise up any issue regarding Mary, in this case, Marian devotions, is to open yourself up for personal attack.

All that aside, I don’t believe most Catholics are aware of the true nature of the Marian devotions, most accepting it as tradition and most walking in with a surface knowledge or understanding of what is taking place here. You however, as a seeker of truth, are merely pointing out and questioning inconsistencies you have noted within the Marian devotions which are not in line with the teachings of the Catholic church. After studying some of the Marian prophecies at Mejugordie, for instance, I myself was surprised that, while the prophecies of the Blessed Mother spoke of Jesus, they mostly spoke about Mary herself. And while the church has not given full approval to all Marian devotions, it has given approval to those at Fatima and Lourdes, thereby affirming Marian devotions as an accepted part of catholic tradition.

I believe there is no way this topic will ever be reconciled here, as this is a Catholic forum and Marian devotions are at the very core and center of Catholic teaching. However, you do raise a valid point and one worth further investigation. All I can say here is that, it is good to question one’s beliefs, even at the point of challenging one’s faith, for if the faith is true, it will withstand any issues that arise and will only become stronger as a result of it. I pray you continue on your journey for truth,

God Rocks

 

[R_C]

All the same, I can assure you that many Protestants don’t call Mary “Mother of God” or even think much of her in that way yet hold firmly to the deity of Christ.

We know

The first one to call Mary “Mother of God” was her cousin

“Et unde hoc mihi, ut veniat mater Domini mei ad me?”

Biblia Sacra Vulgata, 5th Century, emphasis mine

 

[Todd_Easton]

Marian apparitions are so-called “private” revelations. Here’s what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about them:
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfilment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

Personally, because they do not belong to the deposit of faith, I don’t pay too much attention to Marian apparitions.

 

[Della]

That clarifies it somewhat, as all Nelka talked about was abandoning Mary, so perhaps it was just oversimplified.

Yes, I agree. The word “abandon” does carry more meaning than merely disregarding or downplaying, though. I think Nelka wanted to impart a deeper sense of the word.

Having said that, I’m aware of the historical background to the theotokos doctrine (response to the heretic Nestorius). All the same, I can assure you that many Protestants don’t call Mary “Mother of God” or even think much of her in that way yet hold firmly to the deity of Christ. I was one of those for many years.

Yes, I was brought up Episcopalian, and even though we believed in the Communion of Saints Mary was very seldom mentioned–at least I don’t remember much emphasis on her as a child. Then my father died and my mom took us kids into the Assemblies of God, which was even farther away from Catholic beliefs, but there too we held strongly to the deity of Christ.

It’s groups like Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah’s Witnesses that deny Christ’s divinity by denying the divine conception in her womb that I believe Nelka was thinking about. In their case abandoning Mary led to abandoning the Incarnation, and in others like them.