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tgGodsway
Guest
You argue the point from the silence of scripture but ignore the many hints from that same scripture, such as the fact that Jesus is called the"first born" Son.
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TMC
Guest
True. Nor is it based on one’s grasp or acceptance of theological concepts.
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TMC
Guest
Hmmm. Its a pretty far jump from what I said to the parade of horribles that you list. nonetheless, it remains true that the Church teaches that one need not be Christian, or accept any particular dogma or doctrine, to be saved. Whether accepting some doctrines may be helpful to leading one to salvation is another question altogether. But are they “crucial”? The Church says “no,” and I agree.
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jmgi1957
Guest
For people who are accountable, and not having invincible ignorance, the primary theological concept is that it is required that you profess an initial faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. That’s my grasp of it.True. Nor is it based on one’s grasp or acceptance of theological concepts.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
So, what do you define as a “crucial” teaching?
Is it okay to just deny Our Lord Jesus Christ and say you don’t believe that he’s God or that he’s our Savior?
Is it okay to just not believe in God at all?
The Church defines things as “dogmas” because the Church has determined those are “Crucial” teachings. There are very few Dogmas.
You can choose to not believe what you want, but you’re playing with fire…hell fire.
Why are you so anxious to insist that we can reject whatever teachings we want and still be saved, anyway? It’s an odd position to take.
Is it okay to just deny Our Lord Jesus Christ and say you don’t believe that he’s God or that he’s our Savior?
Is it okay to just not believe in God at all?
The Church defines things as “dogmas” because the Church has determined those are “Crucial” teachings. There are very few Dogmas.
You can choose to not believe what you want, but you’re playing with fire…hell fire.
Why are you so anxious to insist that we can reject whatever teachings we want and still be saved, anyway? It’s an odd position to take.
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jmgi1957
Guest
Good point, I guess I let this one slip my memory.Was the teaching of the Council of Jerusalem “different” or “accursed”? After all, it was a new teaching on dietary law, wasn’t it? And it wasn’t “Scriptural” when it happened, now, was it? So, it really was a later “Catholic reasoning and tradition”!
And, if the Council of Jerusalem wasn’t “accursed”, then how can you claim that later councils were …?
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awesomecatholic
Guest
Yes but I am just saying you should actually listen to what the Catholic Church says about requirements for salvation. Of course I don’t know who goes to hell and who doesn’t. Nowhere in the catechism does it say you will go hell if your don’t accept the Marian dogmas.
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concretecamper1
Guest
One word: Obediance
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Gingersnaps4
Guest
Obstinately rejecting any dogma is heresy and that’s a mortal sin. So technically yes, it’s a grave sin to knowingly reject them. It can imperil your soul even if the catechism doesn’t single out the Marian Dogmas.
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stpurl
Guest
You’re arguing though in rather a strange way. The catechism also doesn’t say, “You will go to hell if you do not accept the dogma of the Trinity” or “You will go to hell if you do not accept the dogma of the Resurrection”.
I don’t think it uses any phrase that starts “You will go to hell” at all.
So you’re kind of arguing a strawman here, aren’t you?
The catechism, while helpful, is not fashioned to say, "You will go to hell if you do. . or ‘you will go to hell if you do not’. . .
However, we do know that, for one thing, every single Marian dogma. . .every single solitary one. . . is ultimately about Jesus.
And we know that Jesus, is the way, the truth, and the Life, and that no one comes to salvation except through Him.
So if that’s the case, then if every Marian dogma is ultimately a dogma about Jesus, then rejecting them is rejecting who He is, and rejecting Him.
And if we reject Him, we choose hell.
So. . .
I don’t think it uses any phrase that starts “You will go to hell” at all.
So you’re kind of arguing a strawman here, aren’t you?
The catechism, while helpful, is not fashioned to say, "You will go to hell if you do. . or ‘you will go to hell if you do not’. . .
However, we do know that, for one thing, every single Marian dogma. . .every single solitary one. . . is ultimately about Jesus.
And we know that Jesus, is the way, the truth, and the Life, and that no one comes to salvation except through Him.
So if that’s the case, then if every Marian dogma is ultimately a dogma about Jesus, then rejecting them is rejecting who He is, and rejecting Him.
And if we reject Him, we choose hell.
So. . .
Tis_Bearself
Patron
The Catechism doesnt say you will go to Hell for genocide either. Would you tell someone, " You shouldn’t commit genocide, but you won’t go to Hell if you do, because the Catechism doesn’t say that committing genocide will send you to Hell?"
The Catechism was written by human beings like you and me, and none of us have any idea whether God might choose to send a person to Hell and why God would make that judgment, so it’s not going to ever say doing act X will send you to Hell.
The Catechism was written by human beings like you and me, and none of us have any idea whether God might choose to send a person to Hell and why God would make that judgment, so it’s not going to ever say doing act X will send you to Hell.
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awesomecatholic
Guest
Rejecting Mary IS NOT the same as rejecting Christ and AGAIN of course I don’t know whether or not someone is going to hell for sure,that is not my judgement to make. Do you honestly think if someone does not accept the Immaculate conception,then they are rejecting Christ? If you do I think that is a little strange. Accepting the Marian dogmas are crucial to the Catholic church and I myself accept them all. Do you believe Anglicans will go to hell? They don’t accept all of the Marian dogmas.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
This whole argument/ discussion whatever started with me telling you that we have no idea if someone is going to Hell or not and why.Do you believe Anglicans will go to hell? They don’t accept all of the Marian dogmas.
I have NO IDEA if Anglicans will go to hell or not and I would expect that God would make the decision for each individual Anglican, not for “Anglicans” as a group. Furthermore, it’s entirely possible that someone’s rejection of a Marian dogma could be a factor in God’s judgment of a person; it’s also entirely possible that he might choose to set it aside. We simply don’t know. The person who wrote the Catechism doesn’t know either.
Therefore, from a logical POV, you cannot say, “It’s okay to skip believing in any dogmas, or in certain dogmas, because you won’t go to Hell for that”
and from a logical POV, you also cannot say, “You WILL go to Hell if you don’t believe dogmas”.
I feel like I have repeated this point about 10 times now because for whatever reason, you’re not making logical arguments. You don’t seem to understand the responses being made to you. I would suggest gently that you may want to read and respond to what is actually written, rather than going off on some completely different tangent. It is absurd for you to ask me that question about Anglicans when I stated in my very first post to you that we cannot say for sure if someone will go to Hell and I have repeated that multiple times.
Have a nice day
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awesomecatholic
Guest
I did read what was written and clearly your didn’t read my posts either! I have said that it is not my judgement. I think your the one not making logical arguments. The church has never said you have to accept any particular dogma. A dogma might help a person get to heaven, but I really don’t think they are crucial,but I do think they are true.
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Gingersnaps4
Guest
It’s a mortal sin to obstinately reject ANY dogma. The church DOES teach that you have to assent to dogma. The logical conclusion of that is that it IS possible to go to hell for rejecting dogma!
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awesomecatholic
Guest
Furthermore, One’s conscience plays a role in the final judgement. No priest,bishop or pope can ever override that.
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awesomecatholic
Guest
I agree. I don’t think it is impossible,but unlikely. God looks at a person’s conscience at the final judgement. Getting into heaven is not some theological test you have to pass.
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concretecamper1
Guest
If God wills the salvation of all, He would not make the means of salvation ambiguous. Your example is gray. Gray is Satan’s favorite color.Therefore, from a logical POV, you cannot say, “It’s okay to skip believing in any dogmas, or in certain dogmas, because you won’t go to Hell for that”
and from a logical POV, you also cannot say, “You WILL go to Hell if you don’t believe dogmas”.
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Fauken
Guest
God is Truth. God established the Catholic Church to hold and teach His truths. God promised to protect that Church from Hell, which is lead by the Prince of Lies. So if you deny something that the Church teaches as true and not to be contested, then…Getting into heaven is not some theological test you have to pass.
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Justin_Mary
Guest
The Bible comes from our Catholic tradition. It can not contradict its source.I’m not saying one is more “important” than the other, as I realize that the Bible came out of the Church, but Tradition cannot ever contradict Scripture,
& that is their tradition whether they call it tradition or not.but when I speak with people of other Christian faiths, the Marian dogma’s invariably are on the top of the list for discussion, and in most cases, they don’t want to hear anything about Tradition and Church authority, they need to be able to go to Scripture and see it in print or they don’t accept it.
So we have a tradition that goes back as far as Abraham vs a tradition that goes back to the Renaissance
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