D
dvdjs
Guest
[/QUOTE]
- Status
D
DadDave
Guest
From OCA website:
And from CCC:
So what is difference?
V
Vico
Guest
The difference comes from using the Greek text vs the Latin text of the Bible. Romans 5:12 particularly the phrase: eph’ho pantes hemarton.
Greek = “… and so death passed upon all men, because of which all have sinned.”
Latin = “… and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned,”
What comes from the ancestral sin is death, and from that comes sin. So it seems logical to say that if the Theotokos is free from the ancestral curse, that she would not age and be immortal and never sin. (Of course Our Lord was free from the ancestral curse and he aged and died.)
The Latin concept of the stain of original sin is the lack of grace which we all have at birth, it only encompases part of what the ancestral sin is.
In either east or west we are born sinless (free from actual sin with personal guilt) and need the Holy Spirit, so we are baptised.
Greek = “… and so death passed upon all men, because of which all have sinned.”
Latin = “… and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned,”
What comes from the ancestral sin is death, and from that comes sin. So it seems logical to say that if the Theotokos is free from the ancestral curse, that she would not age and be immortal and never sin. (Of course Our Lord was free from the ancestral curse and he aged and died.)
The Latin concept of the stain of original sin is the lack of grace which we all have at birth, it only encompases part of what the ancestral sin is.
In either east or west we are born sinless (free from actual sin with personal guilt) and need the Holy Spirit, so we are baptised.
E
Elijahmaria
Guest
orthodoxeurope.org/page/10/1.aspx#24
CONSEQUENCES OF ADAM’S SIN
After Adam and Eve sin spread rapidly throughout the human race. They were guilty of pride and disobedience, while their son Cain committed fratricide. Cain’s descendants soon forgot about God and set about organizing their earthly existence. Cain himself ‘built a city’. One of his closest descendants was ‘the father of those who dwell in tents and have cattle’; another was ‘the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe’; yet another was ‘the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron’ (Gen.4:17-22). The establishment of cities, cattle-breeding, music and other arts were thus passed onto humankind by Cain’s descendants as a surrogate of the lost happiness of Paradise.
The consequences of the Fall spread to the whole of the human race. This is elucidated by St Paul: ‘Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned’ (Rom.5:12). This text, which formed the Church’s basis of her teaching on ‘original sin’, may be understood in a number of ways: the Greek words ef’ ho pantes hemarton may be translated not only as ‘because all men sinned’ but also ‘in whom [that is, in Adam] all men sinned’. Different readings of the text may produce different understandings of what ‘original sin’ means.
If we accept the first translation, this means that each person is responsible for his own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression. Here, Adam is merely the prototype of all future sinners, each of whom, in repeating Adam’s sin, bears responsibility only for his own sins. Adam’s sin is not the cause of our sinfulness; we do not participate in his sin and his guilt cannot be passed onto us.
However, if we read the text to mean ‘in whom all have sinned’, this can be understood as the passing on of Adam’s sin to all future generations of people, since human nature has been infected by sin in general. The disposition toward sin became hereditary and responsibility for turning away from God sin universal. As St Cyril of Alexandria states, human nature itself has ‘fallen ill with sin’; thus we all share Adam’s sin as we all share his nature. St Macarius of Egypt speaks of ‘a leaven of evil passions’ and of ‘secret impurity and the abiding darkness of passions’, which have entered into our nature in spite of our original purity. Sin has become so deeply rooted in human nature that not a single descendant of Adam has been spared from a hereditary predisposition toward sin.
The Old Testament writers had a vivid sense of their inherited sinfulness: ‘Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me’ (Ps.51:7). They believed that God ‘visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation’ (Ex.20:5). In the latter words reference is not made to innocent children but to those whose own sinfulness is rooted in the sins of their forefathers.
From a rational point of view, to punish the entire human race for Adam’s sin is an injustice. But not a single Christian dogma has ever been fully comprehended by reason. Religion within the bounds of reason is not religion but naked rationalism, for religion is supra-rational, supra-logical. The doctrine of original sin is disclosed in the light of divine revelation and acquires meaning with reference to the dogma of the atonement of humanity through the New Adam, Christ: ‘…As one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous… so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord’ (Rom.5:18-21).
CONSEQUENCES OF ADAM’S SIN
After Adam and Eve sin spread rapidly throughout the human race. They were guilty of pride and disobedience, while their son Cain committed fratricide. Cain’s descendants soon forgot about God and set about organizing their earthly existence. Cain himself ‘built a city’. One of his closest descendants was ‘the father of those who dwell in tents and have cattle’; another was ‘the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe’; yet another was ‘the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron’ (Gen.4:17-22). The establishment of cities, cattle-breeding, music and other arts were thus passed onto humankind by Cain’s descendants as a surrogate of the lost happiness of Paradise.
The consequences of the Fall spread to the whole of the human race. This is elucidated by St Paul: ‘Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned’ (Rom.5:12). This text, which formed the Church’s basis of her teaching on ‘original sin’, may be understood in a number of ways: the Greek words ef’ ho pantes hemarton may be translated not only as ‘because all men sinned’ but also ‘in whom [that is, in Adam] all men sinned’. Different readings of the text may produce different understandings of what ‘original sin’ means.
If we accept the first translation, this means that each person is responsible for his own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression. Here, Adam is merely the prototype of all future sinners, each of whom, in repeating Adam’s sin, bears responsibility only for his own sins. Adam’s sin is not the cause of our sinfulness; we do not participate in his sin and his guilt cannot be passed onto us.
However, if we read the text to mean ‘in whom all have sinned’, this can be understood as the passing on of Adam’s sin to all future generations of people, since human nature has been infected by sin in general. The disposition toward sin became hereditary and responsibility for turning away from God sin universal. As St Cyril of Alexandria states, human nature itself has ‘fallen ill with sin’; thus we all share Adam’s sin as we all share his nature. St Macarius of Egypt speaks of ‘a leaven of evil passions’ and of ‘secret impurity and the abiding darkness of passions’, which have entered into our nature in spite of our original purity. Sin has become so deeply rooted in human nature that not a single descendant of Adam has been spared from a hereditary predisposition toward sin.
The Old Testament writers had a vivid sense of their inherited sinfulness: ‘Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me’ (Ps.51:7). They believed that God ‘visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation’ (Ex.20:5). In the latter words reference is not made to innocent children but to those whose own sinfulness is rooted in the sins of their forefathers.
From a rational point of view, to punish the entire human race for Adam’s sin is an injustice. But not a single Christian dogma has ever been fully comprehended by reason. Religion within the bounds of reason is not religion but naked rationalism, for religion is supra-rational, supra-logical. The doctrine of original sin is disclosed in the light of divine revelation and acquires meaning with reference to the dogma of the atonement of humanity through the New Adam, Christ: ‘…As one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous… so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord’ (Rom.5:18-21).
M
Mickey
Guest
Try again.
Actually…I think your point…was to score points.
You seem to be infatuated with this silly amputation slogan.
It is quite true.
M
Mickey
Guest
Abba Nilus said, "Prayer is the seed of gentleness and the absence of anger."
D
DadDave
Guest
Sounds like RC catechism…
D
dvdjs
Guest
Yup. Except for this:
Of course that perspective only gained traction in the last 150 years in the EOC. And, curiously, it is clearly contradicted by the liturgical texts of the Entrance of the Theotokos.
G
Ghosty
Guest
I had never thought about the contradiction with the Entrance of the Theotokos. Very, very interesting. The whole point of this Liturgy is that Mary was already purified Holy, and possessing the Holy Spirit when she was presented at the Temple shortly after her birth.
Peace and God bless!
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
If by shortly you mean about 2 or 3 years. Readers who might not be familiar with the Feast might think the Theotokos was presented to the temple as an infant or toddler, but it is said she danced her way into the temple as a sign of joy to offer oneself to God.
G
Ghosty
Guest
The point is that it was long before the Annunciation, so any claim that she was purified then doesn’t really fly.
Peace and God bless!
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Gotcha
M
Mickey
Guest
I believe the term is called, “theologoumenon”.
You see, before 1854 Roman Catholics were free to believe that The Virgin Mary was conceived without original sin….or not. But after 1854, if you did not accept the new doctrine……it was under pain of mortal sin. The Orthodox are not forced to believe this doctrine. We know that the Virgin Mary was human….and like all humans was subject to original (ancestral) sin. We know that she was a great ascetic throughout her life by the grace of God. We know that she was sanctified to be the Mother of God. We venerate and honour her as the greatest of all saints.
H
hazcompat
Guest
Name that defect! What partnership has light with darkness or truth with a lie? Before time began she was chosen from all women to bear the Son and espouse the Spirit. What deformity would God permit?I believe the term is called, “theologoumenon”.
You see, before 1854 Roman Catholics were free to believe that The Virgin Mary was conceived without original sin….or not. But after 1854, if you did not accept the new doctrine……it was under pain of mortal sin. The Orthodox are not forced to believe this doctrine. We know that the Virgin Mary was human….and like all humans was subject to original (ancestral) sin. We know that she was a great ascetic throughout her life by the grace of God. We know that she was sanctified to be the Mother of God. We venerate and honour her as the greatest of all saints.
peace
D
dvdjs
Guest
But, I don’t know why an Orthodox priest would put a mere opinion into a Catechism. Nor do I understand how one goes about dividing theological opinion from authoritative teaching in the EOC. In any case, this comment, in light of other church teachings, strikes me as plain error.
Your story misses the mark. It is like saying we had, within the church, the “freedom” to believe in one nature or two, or to follow Arius or the Cappadocians. But then a new doctrine was pronounced, and we “forced to believe” it. This is not how things developed, as I am sure you know. We are never free to believe error. And our sense of what is true and what is error, has always been under development in the church. There were always some core teachings. At some point, there were discussions of theological details and implications of the teachings, often with esoteric elements connected to our understanding of philosophy, logic, and/or science. Eventually, these discussions and theological opinions were put to rest by the emergence of consensus, often but not always with some final declaration of the opinion of the church.
That progression is not a novelty within the church, it is the way we have always been. You may be troubled by 1800’s versus 800’s; but I suppose it was the same for people in the 800’s looking back to the 300’s.
Finally, how strange this idea of being forced to believe. What is it that EOs are “forced to believe anyway” - is their an authoritative list? Good Catholics don’t think about the faith this way. And that is probably true of good Orthodox.
The only difference that Catholics would have with this statement is the idea that while subject to most all of consequences of original sin, she was not subject to that ontological deficit, that spiritual death of separation (as Easterners would say it - and do say it in the statements above), or the deprivation of sanctifying grace (as Westerners would say it).We know that the Virgin Mary was human….and like all humans was subject to original (ancestral) sin. We know that she was a great ascetic throughout her life by the grace of God. We know that she was sanctified to be the Mother of God. We venerate and honour her as the greatest of all saints.
V
Vico
Guest
Catholics believe what you stated also, it is not contradictory to the Immaculate Conception dogma, with right understanding. The Theotokos was not included in the dogma on original sin given at Trent, and 1854 did settle a dispute between the Franciscans and Dominicans, that was not ended at Council of Trent Sess. V, Can. 6; Denz. n. 792.:I believe the term is called, “theologoumenon”.
You see, before 1854 Roman Catholics were free to believe that The Virgin Mary was conceived without original sin….or not. But after 1854, if you did not accept the new doctrine……it was under pain of mortal sin. The Orthodox are not forced to believe this doctrine. We know that the Virgin Mary was human….and like all humans was subject to original (ancestral) sin. We know that she was a great ascetic throughout her life by the grace of God. We know that she was sanctified to be the Mother of God. We venerate and honour her as the greatest of all saints.
Declarat tamen haec ipsa sancta Synodus, non esse suae intentionis, comprehendere in hoc decreto, ubi de peccato originali agitur, beatam et immaculatam Virginem Mariam Dei genitricem, sed observandas esse constitutiones felicis recordationis Sixti Papae IV, sub poenis in eis constitutionibus contentis, quas innovat.
Yet this holy Synod declares itself, in this decree where original sin is treated of its intention not to be to comprehend the Mother of God the blessed and immaculate Virgin Mary, but the constitutions ought to be observed of (joyful memory) Pope Sixtus IV * [papacy: 1471-1484], under the penalties contained in those constitutions, which it renews.
- Pope Sixtus IV established a feast of the Immaculate Conception to be celebrated on December 8. The penalties were excommunication for the Franciscans or Dominicans to teach, write, or preach that holding a contrary positon was heritical.
Baltimore Catechism 3: Q. 274. How is sin divided? A. (1) Sin is divided into the sin we inherit called original sin, and the sin we commit ourselves, called actual sin. (2) Actual sin is sub-divided into greater sins, called mortal, and lesser sins, called venial.
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Elijahmaria
Guest
Read all the way through very carefully. Note the section that says that the Virgin enters the Temple at the age of 3…Better go and check out that Menaion a little more carefully, Mickey.
Taken from The Festal Menaion translated from the original Greek by
Mother Mary and [then] Archimandrite Kallistos Ware.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple
At Orthros the Magnificat is replaced by these words:
“Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with
amazement, seeing how the Virgin entered into the Holy of Holies” (p.
190 Menaion )
The kontakion of the feast:
"The All-pure Temple of the Saviour, the precious Bridal Chamber and
Virgin, the sacred treasure of the glory of God, is led today into the
house of the Lord, and with her she brings the grace of the divine
Spirit. Of her God’s angels sing in praise: “She is indeed the
heavenly Tabernacle.” (P. 195 Menaion)
From Small Vespers:
O ye gates of the sanctuary, into the Holy of Holies receive ye a Virgin,
the spotless Tabernacle of God the Almighty.
Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.
The living Bridal Chamber of God the Word receives bread from the hands of a
divine angel, as she dwells in the Holy of holies.
From Great Vespers:
Led by the Holy Spirit, the holy Maid without spot is taken to dwell in the
Holy of Holies. By an angel is she fed, who is in truth the most holy Temple
of our Holy God. He has sanctified all things by her entry, and has made
godlike the fallen nature of fallen men.
After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.
Ann, truly blessed by God’s grace, led with gladness into the temple of the
Lord the pure and ever-Virgin, who is full of grace, and she called the
young girls to go before her, lamps in hand.
who gave thee unto me; be unto Him an offering and a sweet smelling incense.
Go into the place which none may enter: learn its mysteries and prepare
thyself to become the pleasing and beautiful dwelling-place of Jesus, who
grants the world great mercy.’
From Matins:
From Eve of old the transgression came upon mankind, and now from Eve’s
stock has flowered forth our restoration and incorruption, even the
Theotokos, who is brought today into the house of God.
Be glad today, O Joachim, and rejoice exceedingly in spirit, O Ann, who now
present unto the Lord your daughter, as a three-year old victim of
sacrifice, holy and utterly without spot.
The ewe-lamb of God without spot, the dove without blemish, the tabernacle
that is to hold God, the sanctuary of the glory, has chosen to dwell in the
holy temple.
Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.
Seeing the beauty of thy soul, O undefiled Virgin, Zacharias cried out with
faith: `Thou art our deliverance, thou art the joy of all. Thou art our
restoration, through whom the Incomprehensible appears comprehensible to
me.’
O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.
A child in the flesh but perfect in soul, the holy Ark enters into the house
of God, there to feed upon divine grace.
The ranks of angels rejoiced exceedingly and spirits of the righteous were
glad, when the Mother of God was led into the sanctuary.
Mary without spot rejoiced in body and spirit, dwelling as a sacred vessel
in the temple of the Lord.
Receiving heavenly food, she who was to become the Mother of Christ the
Saviour according to the flesh, increased in wisdom and grace.
O pure Theotokos, thou hast a clean and shining beauty of soul, and art
filled from heaven with the grace of God. Thou dost ever enlighten with
eternal light those who cry aloud in gladness: O pure Virgin, thou art truly
high above all.
Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with amazement,
seeing how she entered marvelously into the Holy of Holies.
Thy wonders, O pure Theotokos, surpass the power of words. For in thee I see
something beyond speech; a body that was never subject to the taint of sin.
Therefore in thanksgiving I cry to thee: O pure Virgin, thou art truly high
above all.
Angels and men, let us honour the entry of the Virgin, for in glory she has
gone into the Holy of Holies.
Taken from The Festal Menaion translated from the original Greek by
Mother Mary and [then] Archimandrite Kallistos Ware.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple
At Orthros the Magnificat is replaced by these words:
“Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with
amazement, seeing how the Virgin entered into the Holy of Holies” (p.
190 Menaion )
The kontakion of the feast:
"The All-pure Temple of the Saviour, the precious Bridal Chamber and
Virgin, the sacred treasure of the glory of God, is led today into the
house of the Lord, and with her she brings the grace of the divine
Spirit. Of her God’s angels sing in praise: “She is indeed the
heavenly Tabernacle.” (P. 195 Menaion)
From Small Vespers:
O ye gates of the sanctuary, into the Holy of Holies receive ye a Virgin,
the spotless Tabernacle of God the Almighty.
Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.
The living Bridal Chamber of God the Word receives bread from the hands of a
divine angel, as she dwells in the Holy of holies.
From Great Vespers:
Led by the Holy Spirit, the holy Maid without spot is taken to dwell in the
Holy of Holies. By an angel is she fed, who is in truth the most holy Temple
of our Holy God. He has sanctified all things by her entry, and has made
godlike the fallen nature of fallen men.
After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.
Ann, truly blessed by God’s grace, led with gladness into the temple of the
Lord the pure and ever-Virgin, who is full of grace, and she called the
young girls to go before her, lamps in hand.
Go, Child,' she said, to Himwho gave thee unto me; be unto Him an offering and a sweet smelling incense.
Go into the place which none may enter: learn its mysteries and prepare
thyself to become the pleasing and beautiful dwelling-place of Jesus, who
grants the world great mercy.’
From Matins:
From Eve of old the transgression came upon mankind, and now from Eve’s
stock has flowered forth our restoration and incorruption, even the
Theotokos, who is brought today into the house of God.
Be glad today, O Joachim, and rejoice exceedingly in spirit, O Ann, who now
present unto the Lord your daughter, as a three-year old victim of
sacrifice, holy and utterly without spot.
The ewe-lamb of God without spot, the dove without blemish, the tabernacle
that is to hold God, the sanctuary of the glory, has chosen to dwell in the
holy temple.
Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.
Seeing the beauty of thy soul, O undefiled Virgin, Zacharias cried out with
faith: `Thou art our deliverance, thou art the joy of all. Thou art our
restoration, through whom the Incomprehensible appears comprehensible to
me.’
O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.
A child in the flesh but perfect in soul, the holy Ark enters into the house
of God, there to feed upon divine grace.
The ranks of angels rejoiced exceedingly and spirits of the righteous were
glad, when the Mother of God was led into the sanctuary.
Mary without spot rejoiced in body and spirit, dwelling as a sacred vessel
in the temple of the Lord.
Receiving heavenly food, she who was to become the Mother of Christ the
Saviour according to the flesh, increased in wisdom and grace.
O pure Theotokos, thou hast a clean and shining beauty of soul, and art
filled from heaven with the grace of God. Thou dost ever enlighten with
eternal light those who cry aloud in gladness: O pure Virgin, thou art truly
high above all.
Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with amazement,
seeing how she entered marvelously into the Holy of Holies.
Thy wonders, O pure Theotokos, surpass the power of words. For in thee I see
something beyond speech; a body that was never subject to the taint of sin.
Therefore in thanksgiving I cry to thee: O pure Virgin, thou art truly high
above all.
Angels and men, let us honour the entry of the Virgin, for in glory she has
gone into the Holy of Holies.
M
Mickey
Guest
It is not my story. It is a fact that we are not held to embrace this 1854 doctrine. And it is a fact that there was a time that it was not a mortal sin if you did not embrace it.
M
Mickey
Guest
I have read it many times Mary…you did not need to post it. But thank you anyway…it is more beautiful each time I read it!
But I see no IC doctrine here.
- Status