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adam_in_ohio
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:extrahappy: :clapping: :heaven:
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Protestant101
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“God, in his infinite wisdom, applied the merits of His Son’s sacrifice to Mary;” is a portion of what I am questioning within the Catholic view point. I am actually quite familiar with what the CCC tells us, especially with the portions you quoted, and I am glad you brought those particular quotes up.
In CCC #484, it mentions how that the “annunciation” given to Mary “innaugurates the fullness of time.” I would like to know what is mean’t here by “fulness of time?” What is the specific “time” being referred to here? Going by the Bible accounts, it would appear that the birth of Jesus was more related to this “fullness of time” rather than Mary. It relfects upon the principle of God being in control of nations and people, and of the plan of salvation. Unfortunately, this phrase re “the fullness of time” is often over or under looked at. I would like to see this “time” clearly identified in Catholic doctrine; if it is there.
The merits which God "applied’ to Mary are the same as any other believer. The phrase “full of grace” is a more “explicit” expression, but this is not always needed to say the same thing about others who have “found grace in the sight of the Lord.” The many “implicit” expressions of scripture are just as clear as the explicit one in reference to Mary. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; just as all believers who came after him. The Bible makes no distinctions as in some receiving more than others.
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surgei
Guest
I disagree in part.
The divine author is reffering the reader to the OT and pointing us not to the glory of Mary but the God within her. This is what is known as a rumens (forgive my spelling issues please). Luke puts a twist on the end of the quote. The origonal reads: “Blessed are you among women and Blessed is the God of heaven”.
The context in the OT is what shows us the Glory of the Mother of God. Judith is a handmaid of God who is used by God to cut off the head of a gentile general who is attacking Isreal. This then seems to combine well with Gen 3:15 to give us our understanding of Mary as the woman.
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benedictgal
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However, Noah and Mary are two very different people. Mary is the new Eve. Just as Eve was created without sin, so was Mary. Adam was also created without sin. Jesus, too, was conceived without sin. However, remember, that through Adam and Eve, sin entered the world. Noah is very much a son of Adam in that he, too, was born with original sin. He may have found “grace in the sight of the Lord”, but, he was not filled with it, meaning he did not experience the full plentitude of God’s grace as Mary.
Remember, too, what St. John’s final words in his Gospel were: not everything did and said by Jesus was completely recorded. If that were the case, then there wouldn’t be room in the whole world for all of the books documenting Jesus’ words and actions. Furthermore, while divine revelation stopped with the death of St. John, that is not to say that the Holy Spirit continuously inspires and reveals the fullness of the Truth. When declaring dogma and doctrine, Rome doesn’t act in a vaccuum. The Pope doesn’t wake up one morning and decide to declare a dogmatic statement on a subject such as Mary’s Immaculate Conception. This is done with much prayer and careful discernment. The Holy Spirit plays a very active role in the issuance of Dogma. The Pope, as St. Peter’s successor, is charged with the authority to loosen and to bind. This also gives him the authority to teach ex Cathedra, from the chair.
You still have not addressed the issue of who else has ever been addressed as “full of grace”.
It is also interesting to note that you say the Catechism “tells us”. Is it because, you, too are seriously inquiring about the faith?
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benedictgal
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I am a little fuzzy on your first sentence. Are you not in agreement with the CCC or with the statement I made? I’m quite okay with your not agreeing with me, but, I am a little concerned if it’s with the CCC.
Elizabeth further states, “Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should visit me?” She is very clear about Mary’s role when she further states, “blessed is she who believed that everything told to her would be fulfilled.” This actually is actually the exact opposite of Zechariah’s response to Gabriel’s message.
Elizabeth wouldn’t have been able to say these words had the Holy Spirit not inspired her to do so. It is interesting that in the readings for yesterday’s Mass, the Church paired the account of the Visitation with the Song of Songs readings. The context is beautiful in that Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit and her sweet voice in her greeting to Elizabeth causes the child in her cousin’s womb to rejoice because both Mother and Child are in very close proximity.
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surgei
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These are all Christocentric. That is they are not pointing to Mary but to Christ. “Mother of my Lord”
The issue of the Catholic interpretation in these scriptures is that it elevates Mary to the point that it distracts from her virtues as cooperating with God’s grace. It seperates both her and her son from the rest of humantity as not being like us in the core of who we are.
The protestants error in the other extreme.They project their own rejection of divine life onto the Mother of God. For some this is to the point of not only calling Mary nonvirginal but also attributing sin to her.
We cannot go to the left or to the right. We must stay the course and hold fast to what we received in word and deed.
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Protestant101
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My Replies will be in blue
I simply believe that if I am going to say “catholics believe…” then I need to be able to say exactly where they say this. People should do the same with any religion they are discussing. it would sure beat all the accusations one sees on the net.However, Noah and Mary are two very different people. Mary is the new Eve. Just as Eve was created without sin, so was Mary.
Yes, two different people, but one and the same "grace."
You still have not addressed the issue of who else has ever been addressed as “full of grace”.
In post #81, I did address this very issue in the last paragraph. I will look for your response to that.
It is also interesting to note that you say the Catechism “tells us”. Is it because, you, too are seriously inquiring about the faith?
po18guy
Well-known member
Amen!My Replies will be in blue
I simply believe that if I am going to say “catholics believe…” then I need to be able to say exactly where they say this. People should do the same with any religion they are discussing. it would sure beat all the accusations one sees on the net.
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