Marijuana = Sinfull?

[Stylites]

I believe that those who use marijuana are complicit in all of the crime that goes into its production, transportation, and distribution. That includes the murders, kidnappings, and the families destroyed by involvement, voluntary or not, in this criminal enterprise.

Then supposedly those “I-delclare-them-ungodly-sinners-because-they-disobey-human-laws” illegal immigrants are equally complicit in all the violent crimes associated with coyotes and smuggling of immigrants across the border, eh? One cannot use the violence associated with its illegality in order to justify its illegality, for that is a circular argument. Remove the sanctions against an otherwise mild substance and the underworld crime and violence associated with it disappear overnight.

Again, when ignorance and irrational fear are taken out of the equation it’s really another social justice issue.

 

[jmcrae]

Then supposedly those “I-delclare-them-ungodly-sinners-because-they-disobey-human-laws” illegal immigrants are equally complicit in all the violent crimes associated with coyotes and smuggling of immigrants across the border, eh? One cannot use the violence associated with its illegality in order to justify its illegality, for that is a circular argument. Remove the sanctions against an otherwise mild substance and the underworld crime and violence associated with it disappear overnight…

An even easier way to drive them out of business would be to stop being their customer.

 

[Stylites]

An even easier way to drive them out of business would be to stop being their customer.

Hahaha! Yes, your remark (and 80 years of injunctions and policework and jail time and civil fines) all together haven’t yet allowed that to happen, eh? Since the punishment is far worse than the crime, the Christian response should be one of social justice, not violence and smug remarks.

 

[jmcrae]

Hahaha! Yes, your remark (and 80 years of injunctions and policework and jail time and civil fines) all together haven’t yet allowed that to happen, eh? Since the punishment is far worse than the crime, the Christian response should be one of social justice, not violence and smug remarks.

When was I ever violent?

If you don’t want to do the time, don’t do the crime.

 

[Stylites]

When was I ever violent?

If you don’t want to do the time, don’t do the crime.

Regarding violence and complicity, I am turning the ‘complicit’ argument over on its head since no one has been able to counter why illegal aliens are not likewise complicit in murders and kidnappings and robberies along the border.

If anyone supports violent government sanctions against consuming cannabis then they are complicit in all the gang violence associated with its illegality.

 

[Tradycja]

Let me point out that while none of them are very religious, they are still good people. They may smoke pot every so often, but they commit no other crimes. As odd as it sounds they are all on the Honor Roll at school, too, and are considered upstanding young men and women by everyone. I take pride to be in their company.
.

This is your first problem. You need to stop hanging around with these people.

The first Mexican Novelist, Jose Joaquin Fernandez de Lizardi in his book “The Mangy Parrot” says

“Bad friends are devils who do not frighten.”

The first characteristic of true friendship is that it is morally beneficial for all parties. This friendship is not morally beneficial for you.

 

[jmcrae]

Regarding violence and complicity, I am turning the ‘complicit’ argument over on its head since no one has been able to counter why illegal aliens are not likewise complicit in murders and kidnappings and robberies along the border.

If they are giving money to the robbers and kidnappers, then they’d be complicit, but if not, then no - they aren’t part of the reason why these activities seem to be profitable.

If you pay for marijuana, though, then at least some portion of the money you pay goes to a major drug lord. Even if your dealer is “growing his own,” he still buys his seeds somewhere.

If anyone supports violent government sanctions against consuming cannabis then they are complicit in all the gang violence associated with its illegality.

As far as I know, none of my consumer or tax dollars are supporting these gangs in any way.

 

[Stylites]

As far as I know, . . .

As I said, remove ignorance and irrational fear, and it’s just another social justice issue which Christians should be addressing with compassion and reason, not smugness and callous disregard, much less with professional corruption.

 

[jmcrae]

As I said, remove ignorance and irrational fear, and it’s just another social justice issue which Christians should be addressing with compassion and reason, not smugness and callous disregard, much less with professional corruption.

I fail to see how making it legal for people to get high is a “social justice” issue. The laws against marijuana don’t deprive anyone of a necessary good.

 

[Stylites]

I fail to see how making it legal for people to get high is a “social justice” issue. The laws against marijuana don’t deprive anyone of a necessary good.

Being jailed is ‘not depriving anyone of a necessary good’? Freedom is not a necessary good? Being violently arrested and thown into a violent jail over a relatively harmless action is a good thing?

In order to get out the wall of ignorance and irrational fear, just substitute another more dangerous substance for the relatively harmless one of cannabis:

Alcohol is illegal to consume, and anyone who consumes it is subject to arrest and fines. If they don’t want to do the time then don’t do the crime, eh? John Quincy Public, Jr. goes out and buys a pint of beer, and is branded as an ungodly sinner for breaking a human law. The Golden Calf of Law casts him as an evil sinner, and its worshippers decry that he is also complicit in all the violent acts of Al Capone, because he went out and bought a pint. All the arrests and all the raids and all the fines over all the years haven’t done a thing in stopping the evil consumption of this dangerous drug, but an irrational and uncaring society has to look the other way when its irrational responses cause more actual harm than good.

Today, we don’t see any Al Capones or Legs Diamonds out there running rum or beer to John Q. Public Jr’s local grocer and shooting anyone who stands in their way, because there’s no big and easy profit in it. And if there’s no big and easy profit in it then law enforcement won’t be out there looking to confiscate their loot in turn.

With the end of prohibition came an end to the prohibition-related violence. But a new menace was devised to replace the menace of alcohol. Since it was viewed that too many uppity people of color were using cannabis, the Federal government used junk science and propaganda to make it illegal. The proponents of prohibition have ever since been eager to justify their prohibition with any and all studies, since justice would require them to change their actions otherwise, and there’s too much corrupt money at stake in continuing prohibition to be concerned with justice.

Ending prohibition is a social justice issue because the laws against an otherwise harmless action are causing real harm.

 

[jmcrae]

Being jailed is ‘not depriving anyone of a necessary good’? Freedom is not a necessary good? Being violently arrested and thown into a violent jail over a relatively harmless action is a good thing?

In order to get out the wall of ignorance and irrational fear, just substitute another more dangerous substance for the relatively harmless one of cannabis:

Alcohol is illegal to consume, and anyone who consumes it is subject to arrest and fines. If they don’t want to do the time then don’t do the crime, eh? John Quincy Public, Jr. goes out and buys a pint of beer, and is branded as an ungodly sinner for breaking a human law. The Golden Calf of Law casts him as an evil sinner, and its worshippers decry that he is also complicit in all the violent acts of Al Capone, because he went out and bought a pint. All the arrests and all the raids and all the fines over all the years haven’t done a thing in stopping the evil consumption of this dangerous drug, but an irrational and uncaring society has to look the other way when its irrational responses cause more actual harm than good.

Today, we don’t see any Al Capones or Legs Diamonds out there running rum or beer to John Q. Public Jr’s local grocer and shooting anyone who stands in their way, because there’s no big and easy profit in it. And if there’s no big and easy profit in it then law enforcement won’t be out there looking to confiscate their loot in turn.

With the end of prohibition came an end to the prohibition-related violence. But a new menace was devised to replace the menace of alcohol. Since it was viewed that too many uppity people of color were using cannabis, the Federal government used junk science and propaganda to make it illegal. The proponents of prohibition have ever since been eager to justify their prohibition with any and all studies, since justice would require them to change their actions otherwise, and there’s too much corrupt money at stake in continuing prohibition to be concerned with justice.

Ending prohibition is a social justice issue because the laws against an otherwise harmless action are causing real harm.

You know, they say that habitual use of marijuana leads to paranoia. I am starting to think that it might be true.

 

[Stylites]

You know, they say that habitual use of marijuana leads to paranoia. I am starting to think that it might be true.

Feel free to return to try to counter arguments that those who support prohibition are complicit in the violence which prohibition brings, much as illegal immigrants are somehow complicit in border violence and are supposedly sinners for breaking human laws, or just continue with smug remarks.

 

[jmcrae]

Being jailed is ‘not depriving anyone of a necessary good’? Freedom is not a necessary good? Being violently arrested and thown into a violent jail over a relatively harmless action is a good thing?

There is an easy solution - just don’t do it. You don’t need marijuana to survive. Nor do you need alcohol to survive. (If you think you do, then you are addicted, and that’s a serious problem, whether it’s legal or it isn’t.)

 

[LilyM]

Being jailed is ‘not depriving anyone of a necessary good’? Freedom is not a necessary good? Being violently arrested and thown into a violent jail over a relatively harmless action is a good thing?

In order to get out the wall of ignorance and irrational fear, just substitute another more dangerous substance for the relatively harmless one of cannabis:

Alcohol is illegal to consume, and anyone who consumes it is subject to arrest and fines. If they don’t want to do the time then don’t do the crime, eh? John Quincy Public, Jr. goes out and buys a pint of beer, and is branded as an ungodly sinner for breaking a human law. The Golden Calf of Law casts him as an evil sinner, and its worshippers decry that he is also complicit in all the violent acts of Al Capone, because he went out and bought a pint. All the arrests and all the raids and all the fines over all the years haven’t done a thing in stopping the evil consumption of this dangerous drug, but an irrational and uncaring society has to look the other way when its irrational responses cause more actual harm than good.

Today, we don’t see any Al Capones or Legs Diamonds out there running rum or beer to John Q. Public Jr’s local grocer and shooting anyone who stands in their way, because there’s no big and easy profit in it. And if there’s no big and easy profit in it then law enforcement won’t be out there looking to confiscate their loot in turn.

With the end of prohibition came an end to the prohibition-related violence. But a new menace was devised to replace the menace of alcohol. Since it was viewed that too many uppity people of color were using cannabis, the Federal government used junk science and propaganda to make it illegal. The proponents of prohibition have ever since been eager to justify their prohibition with any and all studies, since justice would require them to change their actions otherwise, and there’s too much corrupt money at stake in continuing prohibition to be concerned with justice.

Ending prohibition is a social justice issue because the laws against an otherwise harmless action are causing real harm.

Your analogy is false - no-one would be branded a sinner for disobeying prohibition laws regarding alcohol. Not only did Christ Himself consume alcohol, He commanded its use in our liturgy. Thus alcohol is not just permissible, but REQUIRED for use among Christians. As no human law can trump God’s law, any law banning alcohol completely would not stand and could not be valid, any more than a law prohibiting the production or reading of Bibles.

Jesus did NOT pass a spliff around among His disciples at the last supper saying ‘this joint is my body … smoke herb in my memory’. Nor did He command the servants at Cana to bring him a few kilos of parsley and miraculously transform the humble stuff into highest-grade MJ.

 

[Stylites]

Your analogy is false - no-one would be branded a sinner for disobeying prohibition laws regarding alcohol.

I know that prohibition allowed for an exemption to Communion wine, but the analogy still stands as far as Catholics (or anyone else) being criminalized for consuming wine or beer with one’s dinner between 1919 and 1933.

That same argument has been used on this thread: “Disobey laws and it’s a sin to do so,” in spite of the fact that obeying conscience always trumps obeying human law. I can point out the posts if you wish.

Again, no one has been able to counter the argument that those who support the prohibition of cannabis are complicit in the violence associated with its prohibition, and it is a social justice issue because the violent punishments are far worse than the relatively harmless actions being punished.

 

[Stylites]

Jesus did NOT pass a spliff around among His disciples at the last supper saying ‘this joint is my body … smoke herb in my memory’. Nor did He command the servants at Cana to bring him a few kilos of parsley and miraculously transform the humble stuff into highest-grade MJ.

So then bacon, pork chops, and jumbo shrimp should be criminalized, too?!

 

[LilyM]

So then bacon, pork chops, and jumbo shrimp should be criminalized, too?!

No, just as cars and computers shouldn’t, because these things aren’t nearly as morally problematic as mind-altering drugs. There is a spectrum - mind-altering drugs on or near one end, harmless things like jumbo shrimp on the other

For that matter there are, as people are fond of pointing out, plenty of currently LEGAL drugs that are, and perhaps more that should be, very heavily circumscribed and restricted if not banned outright. I wouldn’t argue that any drug that is currently banned shouldn’t be - for one, the decision to ban such things usually isn’t taken lightly, and when it is a mistake (as with prohibition of alcohol), the mistake is realised fairly quickly and the situation reversed fairly quickly.

If the same were really true of marijuana - that banning it was a mistake and it really wasn’t harmful enough to be illegal - then the ban would’ve been reversed long before now as it was with alcohol.

 

[Stylites]

. . . and when it is a mistake (as with prohibition of alcohol), the mistake is realised fairly quickly and the situation reversed fairly quickly.

If the same were really true of marijuana - that banning it was a mistake and it really wasn’t harmful enough to be illegal - then the ban would’ve been reversed long before now as it was with alcohol.

Prayer and fasting are also ‘mind-altering,’ and to a much greater extent than cannabis, so what’s going to be the next rationalization, one wonders?

Yes, 14 years was a ‘quick realization’ that a mistake was made. It has been longer with cannabis because of ignorance and irrational fear, and since there are fewer users of cannabis than of alcohol, although the latter is far more dangerous than the former, and the former is not at all addictive as is the latter.

While prohibition rightly required a Constitutional amendment, the laws against cannabis were foisted upon the states without one, contrary to the Catholic principle of subsidiary. Also, historically there were racist undercurrents in enacting the ban. Of course, the universal ban is getting lifted across most of the population, but there are still good people in Texas doing hard time merely for possessing a couple of seeds, which is an outrage against justice.

Again, once the ignorance and irrational fear are removed from the equation, it is a social justice issue.

 

[Stylites]

No, just as cars and computers shouldn’t, because these things aren’t nearly as morally problematic as mind-altering drugs. There is a spectrum - mind-altering drugs on or near one end, harmless things like jumbo shrimp on the other

Just as the two examples you provided are morally-neutral (cars and computers) they act as ‘vehicles’ for good, bad, or neutral actions. A car can transport the kids to a soccer match or rush one to the hospital, or be used to harm others in road rage. A computer can be used to be informed of medical issues, or be used to sell counterfeit medicines on the internet. Likewise, cannabis is merely a ‘vehicle’ for the intent of the user. There are good, bad, and neutral uses of it, too. But even the worst intent of cannabis can’t compare in the amount of real harm to the worst uses of perfectly legal things, such as alcohol or cars or computers.

 

[CCHSstudent]

Hemlock is from the ground too. It’s natural and poisonous. That God put something on the earth does not mean it was meant for our consumption.

Given that marijuana’s entire purpose is the hallucinatory effects that it has upon the mind, I would counsel that to use this substance is to seek escape from the reality of God’s creation in preference for some chemically induced fantasy. This is directly opposed to being alert in one’s service to God.

marijuana is not a hallucinogen. It does not create an alternate reality it just heightens some senses and lowers others temporarily. its not addictive and is accountable for 0 deaths in recorded history. someone please tell me how a person who consumes this plant is committing any crime. in both a civil, lawful aspect as well as a religious one