mariolatry

[Elliott]

Many Catholics turned Protestant have told me Catholics worship Mary. This leads me to believe that they were guilty of mariolatry. Now that I know more of what the Church teaches I see that these people were underinformed about their faith. My question is whether most Catholics are ignorant of Church teaching, or not, and do many Catholics worship Mary? Don’t get me wrong, I’m Catholic(less than a week) but I’ve been around many ex Catholics and don’t know if this is reserved mostly to them or not.

 

[Tietjen]

Elliott:

Many Catholics turned Protestant have told me Catholics worship Mary. This leads me to believe that they were guilty of mariolatry. Now that I know more of what the Church teaches I see that these people were underinformed about their faith. My question is whether most Catholics are ignorant of Church teaching, or not, and do many Catholics worship Mary? Don’t get me wrong, I’m Catholic(less than a week) but I’ve been around many ex Catholics and don’t know if this is reserved mostly to them or not.

With over 1 billion Catholics worldwide, there will of course be some who know little about their religion. Some Catholics never even practice their religion. They were simply born and their non-practicing parents had them baptized and that was the end of their religious life. Others may have been raised in a good Catholic home and have been exposed to Catholicism but for one reason or another, they did not want to believe. Every religion with over 1 billion people will have those (I should have probably said “both” because if I am not mistaken there are only two religions that have 1 billion members, Islam being the other).

As to the issue of the Blessed Mother, we venerate the Blessed Mother NOT worship her. There is a difference. To venerate as defined by Webster’s Dictionary is “to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference.”

I hope this helps. God bless.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Catholics only worship God. But that’s in the current understanding of the word. I will provide more info below. Try this link from this www for a thorough explainations on these type of questions.

catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm gives a good account of history on devotion to Mary by the Church.

I can’t remember it, but there are 3 levels of worship in the old definition of the word. Latria is the worship we give to God alone. It’s the highest. The middle one is to Mary. It’s not idolatrous though. And the lowest one is to all other Angels and Saints. Perhaps someone else remembers the old words. Slipped my mind. But this is what partially confuses other Christians.
And a big welcome to the Church.

 

[Catholic29]

Sadly I must say that a majority of Catholics are rather ignorant about what the Church teaches. And yes, mariolatry is sadly practiced to a degree, predominantly in some latin America countries and in the Philippines somewhat. But what they do there is not what is taught by Rome, like many Fundamentalist Evangelicals would want us to believe.

 

[Tietjen]

John Russell Jr:

Catholics only worship God. But that’s in the current understanding of the word. I will provide more info below. Try this link from this www for a thorough explainations on these type of questions.

catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm gives a good account of history on devotion to Mary by the Church.

I can’t remember it, but there are 3 levels of worship in the old definition of the word. Latria is the worship we give to God alone. It’s the highest. The middle one is to Mary. It’s not idolatrous though. And the lowest one is to all other Angels and Saints. Perhaps someone else remembers the old words. Slipped my mind. But this is what partially confuses other Christians.
And a big welcome to the Church.

Latria is for God alone
Hyperdulia is for Mary
Dulia is for angels and saints

God bless.

 

[Hesychios]

It is certainly difficult for some people to maintain the proper balance.

I think the big problem is that some people have a poor understanding of what the church actually teaches. I think the average cradle-Catholic has about a third grade level of religious understanding. We know that learning is for a lifetime, but the average person on the street would no more likely buy a book on theology than buy one on chemistry! yeccch!

In my circle most Catholics I know do not read the Bible, and I am the only Catholic at work I am aware of who owns a catechism (in fact I have several).

There is just no interest in that stuff generally. So people learn by doing, they observe the grandparents and when they’ve passed on, piety in the family is just a distant memory.

The first time a young Catholic shows an interest in religion what generally happens? Someone shoves a rosary in his hand! He knows virtually nothing about a faith he ignored when he was forced to attend CCD classes, and now he’s got a rosary in his hand.

If you “learn by doing” what have you got? A bunch of faithful Catholics saying the rosary a lot does give a fine example of Catholic piety and spirituality but a new observer could get an impression like: Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Jesus - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Jesus - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Jesus - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary

That’s why hundreds of thousands of young cradle Catholics have left the church, with more on the way.

I’m not knocking the rosary, it has it’s place. There are plenty of worse things I can think of. I think the first two things that should be shoved into a new inquirers hands are a catechism and a Bible, followed by a prayer book. That’s a winning combination.

+T+
Michael

 

[Della]

If you “learn by doing” what have you got? A bunch of faithful Catholics saying the rosary a lot does give a fine example of Catholic piety and spirituality but a new observer could get an impression like: Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Jesus - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Jesus - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Jesus - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary - Mary

That’s why hundreds of thousands of young cradle Catholics have left the church, with more on the way.

I’m not knocking the rosary, it has it’s place. There are plenty of worse things I can think of. I think the first two things that should be shoved into a new inquirers hands are a catechism and a Bible, followed by a prayer book. That’s a winning combination.

+T+
Michael

For a Catholic who has several catechisms this statement is disappointing to say the least. I’m afraid you are “knocking” the Rosary with this explanation of what it is all about.

It is NOT about Mary. The Hail Mary is Bible verses in which the angel of God, St. Gabriel, and Mary’s cousin, St. Elizabeth, said these words to Mary. And why? Because she was chosen to be the Mother of God.

So, it is JESUS that is the center of meditation in the Rosary NOT Mary. By praying the Hail Mary we are praying with her as she intercedes for us.

If Protestants hear Mary’s name more often than that of Jesus, they are listening, as they often do, with selective hearing. We Catholics shouldn’t be doing the same thing.

 

[mrS4ntA]

Della:

For a Catholic who has several catechisms this statement is disappointing to say the least. I’m afraid you are “knocking” the Rosary with this explanation of what it is all about.

It is NOT about Mary. The Hail Mary is Bible verses in which the angel of God, St. Gabriel, and Mary’s cousin, St. Elizabeth, said these words to Mary. And why? Because she was chosen to be the Mother of God.

So, it is JESUS that is the center of meditation in the Rosary NOT Mary. By praying the Hail Mary we are praying with her as she intercedes for us.

If Protestants hear Mary’s name more often than that of Jesus, they are listening, as they often do, with selective hearing. We Catholics shouldn’t be doing the same thing.

I agree. It’s a Christocentric meditation through the heart of Mary. “Taught by the school of Mary,” as the Holy Father puts it.

In Christum via Mariam,
S4ntA.

 

[Hesychios]

Della:

For a Catholic who has several catechisms this statement is disappointing to say the least. I’m afraid you are “knocking” the Rosary with this explanation of what it is all about.

It is NOT about Mary. The Hail Mary is Bible verses in which the angel of God, St. Gabriel, and Mary’s cousin, St. Elizabeth, said these words to Mary. And why? Because she was chosen to be the Mother of God.

So, it is JESUS that is the center of meditation in the Rosary NOT Mary. By praying the Hail Mary we are praying with her as she intercedes for us.

If Protestants hear Mary’s name more often than that of Jesus, they are listening, as they often do, with selective hearing. We Catholics shouldn’t be doing the same thing.

You missed my point entirely, which many people probably will.

I don’t require a lecture about what the rosary is or isn’t, I was trying to explain why so many young people (and older ones as well) leave the church thinking we worship Mary. If you could just put yourself into the position of one of these people for just one moment you would see that I am right.

Go ahead, pray the rosary, but the next time you get an inquirer or young Catholic asking to learn more about being a Catholic you had better teach them something more than how to pray a rosary.

The Orthodox Catholic faith is a lot more than that, but somehow we have generated hundreds of thousands of hostile former Catholics who think that they were never taught about Jesus. There has to be an explanation for it, this is my theory.

No other church turns out so many of it’s own sons and daughters to not only reject it’s own traditional family faith, but actually despise it!

 

[Della]

Hesychios:

You missed my point entirely, which many people probably will.

I don’t require a lecture about what the rosary is or isn’t, I was trying to explain why so many young people (and older ones as well) leave the church thinking we worship Mary. If you could just put yourself into the position of one of these people for just one moment you would see that I am right.

Cool your jets. Everyone needs to be reminded of things from time to time. Me more than anyone else. I was thinking primarily of lurkers and seekers who would not understand what you were driving at with your odd explanation of the practice of the Rosary.

Go ahead, pray the rosary, but the next time you get an inquirer or young Catholic asking to learn more about being a Catholic you had better teach them something more than how to pray a rosary.

Actually, I don’t pray the Rosary daily. Like St. Therese I don’t find it all that helpful to me. I do pray Morning and Evening Prayer. And praying the Rosary does not negate explaining things to young people. We ought to be telling them what the Rosary means and why Catholics pray it instead of blowing it off.

The Orthodox Catholic faith is a lot more than that, but somehow we have generated hundreds of thousands of hostile former Catholics who think that they were never taught about Jesus. There has to be an explanation for it, this is my theory.

Of course, orthodox Catholicism is more than that, but the Rosary shouldn’t be pointed out as the cause of people leaving the Church when they didn’t understand what it was about. There are many reasons why people leave the Church. Believe me it isn’t because they had a hang up about the Rosary but because they drifted away from the faith or never understood it in the first place or were proselytized by people very good at twisting the Bible to say what they want and telling Catholics lies about what the Church teaches. I was in the Assemblies of God 20 years and saw plenty of Catholics for whom this was true.

No other church turns out so many of it’s own sons and daughters to not only reject it’s own traditional family faith, but actually despise it!

Even if true (documentation please), that is no reason for suggesting that praying the Rosary, of all things, is a major factor in their leaving. I do hope that is not what you are trying to say. Catholics leaving the faith of their families is very painful and a problem but let’s try to find ways to solve that problem without throwing out our traditional Catholic devotions.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

In my oppinion praying the rosary praises [exalts] Mary rather then God. HAIL MARY, FULL OF GRACE, THE LORD IS WITH THEE, BLESSED ART THOU AMONGST WOMEN AND BLESSED IS THE FRUIT OF THY WOMB JESUS ,HOLY MARY MOTHER OF GOD, PRAY FOR OUR SINNERS, NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH, AMEN. TRUE THESE WORDS ARE WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE AND ARE TRUE BUT IM SURE MARY WOULD RATHER YOU PRAISE GOD WITH YOUR PRAYERS INSTEAD.

 

[Hesychios]

Della:

Even if true (documentation please), that is no reason for suggesting that praying the Rosary, of all things, is a major factor in their leaving. I do hope that is not what you are trying to say. Catholics leaving the faith of their families is very painful and a problem but let’s try to find ways to solve that problem without throwing out our traditional Catholic devotions.

Did I suggest throwing out the rosary?

My point is that many Catholics are in complete denial about the reasons we lose our young people and why non-Catholics have so many misunderstandings about us. If our own children do not understand the faith, how in the world can we expect outsiders to understand it?

The fact is, the Catholic faith is an open book. Anyone curious about the faith doesn’t have to talk to one of us, or actually even a priest, they can find out anything they need to know for starters by buying a catechism. We have nothing to hide.

But our own people (most of whom have attended Catholic schools for at least part of their education) are so ignorant of their own faith as to be a real scandal. They can pray a rosary, but they cannot defend the faith.

It’s not just the Protestants, our own young people watch us pray and don’t “get it”.

+T+
Michael

 

[Della]

Hesychios:

Did I suggest throwing out the rosary?

Well, perhaps you didn’t say so, but I got the impression you thought it could go and no one would be the worse off. I rather doubt you meant to say that, though.

My point is that many Catholics are in complete denial about the reasons we lose our young people and why non-Catholics have so many misunderstandings about us. If our own children do not understand the faith, how in the world can we expect outsiders to understand it?

The fact is, the Catholic faith is an open book. Anyone curious about the faith doesn’t have to talk to one of us, or actually even a priest, they can find out anything they need to know for starters by buying a catechism. We have nothing to hide.

But our own people (most of whom have attended Catholic schools for at least part of their education) are so ignorant of their own faith as to be a real scandal. They can pray a rosary, but they cannot defend the faith.

It’s not just the Protestants, our own young people watch us pray and don’t “get it”.

+T+
Michael

Well, you are preaching to the choir here. I don’t know of any Catholic who knows anything at all about his faith that wouldn’t say the same things.

The reason so many Catholics don’t know about their faith is due to the very poor catechize they received in the wake of Vatican II when many in leadership positions in the Church seized upon the council’s directives and misused them to gut Catholic education from learning the Creed and praying the Rosary to “I’m OK, you’re OK” thinking with a good deal of minimalism and feminism thrown in.

Catholic young people weren’t taught the authentic Catholic faith. Many Catholic leaders went against all the Vatican II wanted for the faithful. Blame those bishops, priests and nuns who replaced the faith with their own agendas for the great exodus from the Church in the last half of the 20th century.

 

[cestusdei]

I have never met a Catholic who worships Mary. Nor have I ever met an ex-Catholic who left because of Marian devotion. That usually comes later. Often they leave because of a marriage situation or are evangelized by a fundamentalist. Few would spontaneously leave because of the rosary. On the other hand Marian devotion has actually attracted some people to the Church.

I often respond to Protestants by saying “we no more worship Mary then you worship the Bible”. If they disagree then I accuse them of bibliolatry. Sauce for the goose…

 

[jpsheehn]

This is why I believe we Catholics should have like a mandatory class room style Cathoilc faith 101 study each week.

I am a cradle Catholic who has finally decided to get confrimed. Right now I am in the RCIA. I am learning so much that I did not know!!!

I sincerely wish that more Catholics would recieve this wondering teaching about our faith. So many are so ignorant of our faith even those within our own church.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I usually tell such people, "If there is any mariolatry going on–that is, giving the LATREIA that belongs to God alone to the Virgin–then it happens not BECAUSE of the taching of the church, BUT IN SPITE OF HER TEACHING.

“Furthermore, I don’t know anyone who actually indulges in mariolatry, and what’s more, you don’t either, because I really doubt that God has granted you the gift of seeing into other people’s hearts. If He did, you would find it a terrible burden.”

 

[Mark_Robert]

Veneration of Mary becomes idolatry when she is given a more prominent place than Christ. When Mary is mentioned MORE OFTEN than Jesus and prayed to almost exclusively with maybe an afterthought given to Christ, it angers me. I mean, where are people’s sense of hierarchy here? God comes first or should come first. Yes Mary is to be given the highest veneration. Yes Mary leads us to her son, Jesus. BUT some Catholics idolize Mary as an end in herself when she is merely pointing the way to Jesus. The rosary is wonderful and people should petition Mary for intercession but we must also not lose touch with what is ulimately important e.g. giving worship and our highest love to God.

 

[Calliope]

I have been lurking for a long time, but feel I must jump in.

I am a former Catholic, and know several others who left over Mariolotry.

When I read explanations and defenses here of everything Mary, I get that same sinking feeling, because most Catholics refuse to even concede that it may be an issue, and a serious one at that.

People blame it on the person who “misunderstood” or “couldn’t be bothered to learn the truth”, but never on the people who are involved in the practices themselves.

I have read here that whenever a Catholic looks at a statue of Mary or a saint, they think of Jesus. Huh? And when a Catholic says “pray to a saint” all Catholics understand that is shorthand for “ask the saint to intercede for you”

Sorry, but that is NOT true.

And the “tsk, tsk, poor catechesis” doesn’t cut it either.

or the “you can’t see into people’s hearts” bit. No, but when you are raised in a church and a Catholic culture, people share what is in their hearts. Mariolotry is rife, and because it is a sensitive issue in Catholicism, any real discussion of it is often cut short. People are so rabid to defend Mary, that they too often end up protecting the very things that most dishonor her.

Mary, most of all, would loathe to be the issue that causes souls to leave the church, yet, over and over again, the marian practices are what drive people away (or seek them from coming).

Many marian devotions have become stumbling blocks, and border or cross the border to superstition.

You tell others not to look into people’s hearts and see “worship” where there is none, but what about when Catholics say “they didn’t really leave over that issue, they really left so they could sin without remorse, and are using Mary as a scapegoat.” Isn’t that looking into someone’s heart, not taking them at their word?

Most Catholics seem unwilling to even consider that their own actions, behaviors, speech etc, in regard to Mary have anything to do with the notions people have about the Catholic church and their relationship to the mother of Christ. They just blame the other guy, say they are “haters”, etc. But sometimes there really IS an issue that should be looked at.

Is the practice of placing a crown on a statue and bowing to it and saying prayer before it more important than the souls that are frightened away by such practice?

If the statue has no power, if you KNOW it is NOT Mary, if you can speak to her and honor her in ways that do not cause scandal…wouldn’t that be worth the souls saved?

 

[Larry1700]

I was raised a Baptist, and became Catholic (sort of), when I married at age 22 (in 1981). I say “sort of” because I did not believe the typical “tough stuff” that Protestants don’t like about Catholicism: papal infallibility, confession, and yes, the Mary issues.

In 1999 I began an intense 3 years study of scripture, apologetics, and the Catechism, and overcame 99.9% of the issues. I believe in papal infallibility, apostolic succession, and the magesterial authority stemming from them. I began to understand that Mary is not worshipped, but she is to be viewed as the greatest saint, and the one closest to Jesus (as anyone’s Mother would be). I pray the Rosary daily.
All that being said, even as I pray the Rosary, I still feel a little uncomfortable about several aspects:

1. The “Mary, Mary…Mary, Mary, Jesus” still feels strange, because you would think the name of greatest importance would be recited the most. (Yes, I’m aware that we meditate on the mystery of each decade while we recite Mary’s name, and that most of the mysteries are about Jesus, but it still seems strange).
2. Since the Rosary concludes with the Assumption of Mary and the Crowning of Mary, Queen of Heaven, it makes it appear that those are the most important ones, as if all the preceding mysteries lead up to those.
3. The phrase “Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope,” makes it sound like Mary (not Jesus) is our life, sweetness and hope. Several months ago, Lily_M (another poster in this forum) said that “Mercy” refers to Jesus, which means that the phrase could be restated as “Mother of Mercy (Jesus), **who is **our life, our sweetness and our hope.” This excited me, but Lily_M couldn’t provide any authoritative documentation to support this. However, I asked a visiting priest a couple of months ago, and he concurred with Lily_M’s statement. That makes me feel better, but it still sounds when you say it, though.

I know for a fact that the Church itself does not place Mary equal to Jesus. Mary is seen as above the status of the other saints, but below Jesus. However, even with my knowledge of Church teachings, I have seen things that make it appear that Catholic laity place her equal to Jesus. I don’t know their hearts, and they would probably tell you that Jesus is more important, but they give the distinct impression that she’s equal to or more important than Jesus. Poor catechesis notwithstanding, I know it gave me problems with the Church for years, so if I were in a position of authority I would caution them that they’re probably giving a bad impression of the Church to non-Catholics.

I have read St. Louis of Montfort’s book, Pope John Paul II’s encyclical on the Rosary, and several other respected works related to the Rosary. None of these has adequately addressed these issues for me.

 

[mkross]

Being a cradle catholic, a mother, grandmother and great grandmother I would like to add to this forum. I have never stopped learning about the rich depth of our faith. As I plow through the troubles and joys of human life understanding expands for me all the time. There is a verse in scripture that says (paraphrased) that Jesus had much more to tell the apostles but they could not receive it. It would happen when the Holy Spirit came to them. My whole life has been constant studying and receiving from the Holy Spirit and I have miles to go. The presence of Mary in our lives is such a practicel gift to us. She is one of us who sits close to the King of All. When you think about her life and see how totally she was committed to her Son in very ordinary ways and simple acts I can only hope to imitate her. When I say the rosary the prayer to my mother becomes a quiet melody in the back ground of my meditation of the life of my Savior. My love for Jesus increases
as i sit in prayer amid the saints of heaven and earth, which includes Mary.