mariolatry

[mlchance]

That seems to be the case with most Ex-Catholics who assumed, that we worship Mary. I wonder how many of them ever bother to ask a priest or look up Church document concerning this.

That point aside, I kind of feel bad for folks like Calliope. Because of negligent catechists, priests, et cetera, many folks apparently were taught a distorted version of Catholicism. The human mind is a wonderful thing that instinctively seeks out and tries to adhere to what is true. Once mis-catechized folks come to understand that their distorted Catholicism isn’t the truth, who can really blame them for leaving what they have been taught to see as the Church for something that makes more sense?

At the same time, I don’t understand how folks who were taught error (such as it’s okay to worship the Blessed Virgin) but who later learn about the error don’t then turn around and return to the Catholic faith as it is meant to be lived.

For folks like Calliope: I’m sorry you were taught, permitted, even encouraged to worship the Virgin Mary. That was wrong, and it is not now nor has it ever been what the Church teaches. But that’s in the past, and now it’s time to come home.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think we need to use explicitly the Catechism of the Catholic Church in the CDD Course and RCIA. I rather find them not thorough enough about what the Holy Mother, the Church teaches.

 

[1ke]

Thank you very much for explaining this to me. I thought I left the church over issues of doctrine and practice, but you have been able to see into my heart and tell me what is REALLY going on.

I did not say all ex-Catholics, so your indignation is misplaced. I do not know you so I cannot say why you left the church.

It seems to me you take things overly personally.

 

[Calliope]

I think we need to use explicitly the Catechism of the Catholic Church in the CDD Course and RCIA. I rather find them not thorough enough about what the Holy Mother, the Church teaches.

I think that is an excellant idea, and would do so much good, and prevent so much heartache.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think that is an excellant idea, and would do so much good, and prevent so much heartache.

You know what would be good to? Go visit the Tabernacle. Jesus Christ is there. In Catholicism, we truly believed he is there Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. You can spend a holy hour. Pray to him.

 

[Calliope]

I’m confused. Calliope admits that he/she (?) worshipped the Virgin Mary as a Catholic, but also must know by now that such activity really is contrary to Catholic teaching. It is a shame Calliope’s faith was malformed in such a way. But now, knowing that such activity was wrong (indeed gravely wrong), what other reasons are there from not returning the Catholic faith as it is truly meant to be practiced?

It might be hard to see from the inside, but I will try to explain some of it.

If you’ve ever read these forums from an outside perspective, or even a Catholic, but a little concerned or confused perspective, you might see it. Take a look at the Liturgy forum…I get the idea that Catholicism, as it is truly meant to be practiced, is nearly impossible to find, at least in the USA.

People are always listing horrible abuses, writing bishops who seem unconcerned about addressing the problems, singing songs that are full of bad doctrine, etc.

And I’ve visited numerous Catholic churches over the years, and it seems to be a recurring theme. Catholicism, as it is meant to be practiced seems to be locked in a Vatican vault for safe keeping.

From what I read here, even the validity of Eucharist is often in question, as priest change words, paraphrase, etc.

At this point, it seem Eastern rite, or orthodox might be the best way to go.

 

[Calliope]

I would highly recommending buying the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I also recommend going to John Martignoni’s Bible Christian Society website at biblechristiansociety.com

He has a great material on Mary.

biblechristiansociety.com/download/mp3/mary_and_the_bible.mp3

Thank you for those resources. I DO know what the Church teaches concerning Mary, and have no issue with it. I am concerned with some of the practices, which I think people have perverted. That is very sad, and the PRACTICES keep many people away.

Sometimes, when these discussions occur, I think people talk past each other, one side shouts…but the teaching is sound, while the other shouts, but the practices are questionable.

Again, I ask, is it worth the souls that are kept away to crown a statue with flowers? Mary could be just as beautifully honored by practices that do not look and feel so much like idolatry to many people.

I understand that you are able to take part in those rituals with only the purest of hearts and with full understanding between hyperdulia and latria, but for those who are not so strong, could not another way be found to honor the Mother of Christ?

No, I guess not, that would be catering to the weak. Maybe there is no answer to this.

 

[Calliope]

Do you believe then that Mary desired your devotion or was powerless to stop it. Is it not possible that she pray for you to cease it?

I guess it is possible that Mary prayed for me to cease it, but that is not how it seemed when the realization and conviction came upon me. I won’t pretend to know what is going on in heaven. But it very much sounded like the voice of God that called me out of those practices.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I understand that you are able to take part in those rituals with only the purest of hearts and with full understanding between hyperdulia and latria, but for those who are not so strong, could not another way be found to honor the Mother of Christ?

Which rituals?

Again, I ask, is it worth the souls that are kept away to crown a statue with flowers? Mary could be just as beautifully honored by practices that do not look and feel so much like idolatry to many people.

It’s due to honor. Would you not place flowers upon the grave on you departed family?

 

[Calliope]

That seems to be the case with most Ex-Catholics who assumed, that we worship Mary. I wonder how many of them ever bother to ask a priest or look up Church document concerning this.

Well, I can respond to that. I did bring up the issue and received much the same answers then as I have here. Basically that no Catholic EVER worships Mary, because the church teaches that only God is to be worshipped, so whatever I thought I was doing, I was mistaken.

They tell me I misunderstood what I was doing, feeling and participating in, and that it was OK, even though I knew what I was doing was worshipping.

That made me more mistrustful of the Church, that even when I told them that I was participating in grave sin, they explained it away and said I misunderstood, basically that it was impossible for a Catholic to worship Mary, no matter what, since I was not a priest and I could not offer a Mass to her, no matter what else I did, felt, believed, was OK. That I could NEVER honor Mary enough, let alone too much. That is what I was told.

 

[Calliope]

Which rituals?

It’s due to honor. Would you not place flowers upon the grave on you departed family?

Yes, Manny, I have conceded. For those who understand and do ritual with pure heart, there is no issue. For those who do not understand, have been led astray before, or are weak, these practices seem like idolatry. But it is not the job of the faithful to cater to the weak and uninformed.

Honor Mary in all the ways you find appropriate.

Perhaps you have not participated or witnessed some of the rituals toward her that I have. They were quite emotional and astounding, and certainly not something that I would ever do to honor any human being ever, not even my mother.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yes, Manny, I have conceded. For those who understand and do ritual with pure heart, there is no issue. For those who do not understand, have been led astray before, or are weak, these practices seem like idolatry. But it is not the job of the faithful to cater to the weak and uninformed.

Honor Mary in all the ways you find appropriate.

Perhaps you have not participated or witnessed some of the rituals toward her that I have. They were quite emotional and astounding, and certainly not something that I would ever do to honor any human being ever, not even my mother.

Currently, I have not been to any procession of the Virgin Mary. Perhaps when I was young too young to remember in the Philippines.

I’ve been praying the Vespers more often. Vespers by the way is the Liturgy of the Hours, it has Morning Praying, Evening Prayers, from the Psalms, NT, OT, etc.

 

[mlchance]

It might be hard to see from the inside…

Not really. I was on the outside for most of my life. I’m a convert who was received into the Church about three years ago. My conversion took nearly a decade of study and prayer.

…I get the idea that Catholicism, as it is truly meant to be practiced, is nearly impossible to find, at least in the USA.

One could say the same thing about Christianity in general. It’s always been that way. Remember that Jesus Christ had two apostles betray him: both Judas and Peter. The rest, except for John, weren’t exactly stellar performers either that particular night.

The many abuses you cite surely take place, but let’s not confuse the grognards in the Liturgy or Traditional Catholicism forums with a scientific study of the Church’s health.

The failures of other people are no excuse for my failures. Even if everyone else in Mass is clapping, talking on cell phones, and receiving Communion in the hand from Eucharistic ministers while altar girls dance in the aisles, I am still there to pay homage to my Lord.

At this point, it seem Eastern rite, or orthodox might be the best way to go.

I would say that is a definitive step in the right direction, but what do you do when you discover that the Eastern Rite and the Orthodox are both full of flawed human beings as well?

To paraphrase G. K. Chesteron: The only good argument against the Catholic Church are Catholics. But that’s not a very good argument.

I hope and pray things work out for you. Remember Jesus’ promise: All who seek shall find.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Good_Fella]

Many Catholics turned Protestant have told me Catholics worship Mary. This leads me to believe that they were guilty of mariolatry. Now that I know more of what the Church teaches I see that these people were underinformed about their faith. My question is whether most Catholics are ignorant of Church teaching, or not, and do many Catholics worship Mary? Don’t get me wrong, I’m Catholic(less than a week) but I’ve been around many ex Catholics and don’t know if this is reserved mostly to them or not.

Alas, a very dear friend of mine left the Catholic Church and resorted to the same rationalization - and that’s all it is ! He was simply trying to justify his departure and change of Christian persuasion and so appease his troubled conscience. He left the Church because he knew there was no chance his marriage would be annuled and he felt compelled to get a civil divorce. He divorced one woman so that he could marry another. If the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Christ, then according to her teaching, he has committed adultery and has compromised the other two women in his life as well. This truth is too much to bear, so, according to his reasoning, the Catholic Church must be mistaken about our Lord’s prohibition on divorce, since she promotes “Mariolatry” and thus is apostate. One should leave the Church. And by criticizing the Church’s teachings, one is reminded and assured that he has made the right decision by leaving. These ex-Catholics are normally disaffected and hold some kind of grudge against the Church or their families, if it isn’t some other form of emotionalism or escapism. Protestantism had eventually reacted in the same way to appease the collective conscience. The Protestant contentions against the Church’s distinct doctrines are nothing more than an attempt to justify the legitimacy of the Reformation. The fear of God has a lot to do with it. :yup:

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[ElizabethPH]

Quote
“Again, I ask, is it worth the souls that are kept away to crown a statue with flowers? Mary could be just as beautifully honored by practices that do not look and feel so much like idolatry to many people.”

Hi Calliope; that you think and feel that I worship Mary does not make it so. If you feel like YOU are idolizing Mary when you pray in front of a statue of her, or by placing some flowers upon her head by all means don’t do it!!! I know what I am doing when I ask Mary to pray with me; kneeling before a statue of her, or kneeling before my bed while saying my prayers at night. I have a small shrine for Mary in my bedroom; I light a candle I have placed there with a little posy of flowers…in honor of her. It is an insult to me that anyone would assume that by my little shrine for Mary I am worshiping her. It seems no matter of explanation is helping you to understand otherwise. That it looks and feels like Mary worship to some Protestants or non-Catholics it’s just out of their own ignorance. And I must agree with folks here that have talked about ex-Catholics who justify themselves for leaving the Church and come up with Mariology or a myriad of other excuses.

 

[Calliope]

Quote
“Again, I ask, is it worth the souls that are kept away to crown a statue with flowers? Mary could be just as beautifully honored by practices that do not look and feel so much like idolatry to many people.”

Hi Calliope; that you think and feel that I worship Mary does not make it so. If you feel like YOU are idolizing Mary when you pray in front of a statue of her, or by placing some flowers upon her head by all means don’t do it!!! I know what I am doing when I ask Mary to pray with me; kneeling before a statue of her, or kneeling before my bed while saying my prayers at night. I have a small shrine for Mary in my bedroom; I light a candle I have placed there with a little posy of flowers…in honor of her. It is an insult to me that anyone would assume that by my little shrine for Mary I am worshiping her. It seems no matter of explanation is helping you to understand otherwise. That it looks and feels like Mary worship to some Protestants or non-Catholics it’s just out of their own ignorance. And I must agree with folks here that have talked about ex-Catholics who justify themselves for leaving the Church and come up with Mariology or a myriad of other excuses.

I am trying to find a consistency of logic or theology. Often people are chided NOT to do a specific behavior because it will cause scandal, misunderstanding or encourage another to sin. A case I have seen several times on these forums is if a young man and young woman were to share an apt, even if they did not engage in sexual activity.

Yet, that logic is considered faulty and spurious when applied to other practices. But I see that is because Catholics don’t believe that anyone ever has been led to honor Mary inappropriately and that others who see such practices and are scandalized by them are just pretending to be so, so they can offend the Truth that is the Catholic church.

I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to set me straight on these issues. I did come here trying to understand the Catholic viewpoint.

And I apologize if, in any of my posts, I accused or suggested than anyone here, worships Mary. I did try very hard to speak only of my own experience with the people I was in community with, and never intended to suggest that praying to Mary, lighting a candle, etc IS worship, only how confusing it often IS to people, some of those people even Catholics themselves.

And I have accepted responsibility for not knowing better in my youth, so I am sorry you feel that I cannot understand otherwise, because I have tried very hard to be open to what people have shared and conceded many points.

I think I have made the mistake here of taking a personal issue to the forums, and I apologize. I know, as I have stated already in this thread, that the teachings of the Church do not encourage, support or allow the worship of Mary.

I was addressing not the official teaching, but the unfortunate events that sometimes occur when a representative of the Church, whom one might mistakenly trust is accurately representing the teachings of the Church, leads some astray.

People here are defending the Virgin and ways in which she is honored and I am not attacking those things. I am wondering what, if anything should or can be done about the times when things go horribly wrong.

I have received the answer, every person is expected to take the personal responsibility to get a Catechism and learn the true teachings of the Church, and live them, regardless of what others do, say or teach.

I appreciate having gotten a bottom line answer. Thank you.

 

[Calliope]

Not really. I was on the outside for most of my life. I’m a convert who was received into the Church about three years ago. My conversion took nearly a decade of study and prayer.

One could say the same thing about Christianity in general. It’s always been that way. Remember that Jesus Christ had two apostles betray him: both Judas and Peter. The rest, except for John, weren’t exactly stellar performers either that particular night.

The many abuses you cite surely take place, but let’s not confuse the grognards in the Liturgy or Traditional Catholicism forums with a scientific study of the Church’s health.

The failures of other people are no excuse for my failures. Even if everyone else in Mass is clapping, talking on cell phones, and receiving Communion in the hand from Eucharistic ministers while altar girls dance in the aisles, I am still there to pay homage to my Lord.

I would say that is a definitive step in the right direction, but what do you do when you discover that the Eastern Rite and the Orthodox are both full of flawed human beings as well?

To paraphrase G. K. Chesteron: The only good argument against the Catholic Church are Catholics. But that’s not a very good argument.

I hope and pray things work out for you. Remember Jesus’ promise: All who seek shall find.

– Mark L. Chance.

You have given me much to think about and I appreciate it. I don’ t have an answer. I think that when I left, it was the right thing to do. I was young and I was fleeing from practices that were wrong and dishonoring to God. It would have been very damaging to my soul to stay in that community.

What my future holds, I cannot say.

 

[LilyM]

Calliop:

Again, I ask, is it worth the souls that are kept away to crown a statue with flowers? Mary could be just as beautifully honored by practices that do not look and feel so much like idolatry to many people.

What about all the souls who are kept away from Catholicism by our Eucharistic practices - Adoration, Benediction, Eucharistic processions, even the liturgy of the Mass itself, or the practice of Holy Communion? Are we to do none of these things for fear of driving them away?

How about our respect for the Pope’s authority - calling him ‘Holy Father’ and so on. That in itself scandalises a lot of non-Catholics and non-Christians alike. Yet we believe we have every right to call priests father and that the Pope does indeed hold a unique position at the head of our church. Is this to cease because it scandalises some?

What about those Muslims who honour and respect Christ but don’t believe He rose from the dead, for whom the whole idea of Easter is blasphemy and wrong? Are we Christians then to cease celebrating it to avoid giving offence to them?

In other words are we to give up our whole understanding of honouring Christ, the Pope, Mary, for the sake of those who don’t comprehend the reasons we do so?

Of course not. It’s commanded us to honour our father and mother and Mary is certainly our spiritual Mother! Just as the Pope and our priests are our spiritual Fathers.

 

[mlchance]

You have given me much to think about and I appreciate it. I don’ t have an answer. I think that when I left, it was the right thing to do. I was young and I was fleeing from practices that were wrong and dishonoring to God. It would have been very damaging to my soul to stay in that community.

That’s quite possibly true. I recall some time ago one of the resident atheists posted a link to an atheist scientist’s “testimony” as to why the scientist left some Pentecostal sect. Turns out that the sect’s teachings didn’t hold up to rational scrutiny, and so the atheist rightly rejected the sect.

Of course, the atheist did have a point: Her Pentecostal sect was indeed something very much like a false religion. It would have been silly to remain within something discovered to be wrong. Unfortunately, she went one step too far and rejected religion in toto, but that isn’t necessarily a permanent decision.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Calliope]

What about all the souls who are kept away from Catholicism by our Eucharistic practices - Adoration, Benediction, Eucharistic processions, even the liturgy of the Mass itself, or the practice of Holy Communion? Are we to do none of these things for fear of driving them away?

How about our respect for the Pope’s authority - calling him ‘Holy Father’ and so on. That in itself scandalises a lot of non-Catholics and non-Christians alike. Yet we believe we have every right to call priests father and that the Pope does indeed hold a unique position at the head of our church. Is this to cease because it scandalises some?

What about those Muslims who honour and respect Christ but don’t believe He rose from the dead, for whom the whole idea of Easter is blasphemy and wrong? Are we Christians then to cease celebrating it to avoid giving offence to them?

In other words are we to give up our whole understanding of honouring Christ, the Pope, Mary, for the sake of those who don’t comprehend the reasons we do so?

Of course not. It’s commanded us to honour our father and mother and Mary is certainly our spiritual Mother! Just as the Pope and our priests are our spiritual Fathers.

I regret that you did not read, or perhaps simply chose not to quote the rest of my post where I stated that I didn’t think the Church should cater to the weak, and that perhaps there is no answer to the dilemma.