mariolatry

[Miserissima]

I have to agree with what calliope said, except that I firmly believe that it all does comes down to poor catechesis. If more people understood, there wouldn’t be so much of an issue.

I pray the Rosary daily.
All that being said, even as I pray the Rosary, I still feel a little uncomfortable about several aspects:

1. The “Mary, Mary…Mary, Mary, Jesus” still feels strange, because you would think the name of greatest importance would be recited the most. (Yes, I’m aware that we meditate on the mystery of each decade while we recite Mary’s name, and that most of the mysteries are about Jesus, but it still seems strange).

Think of it as a 5:1 ratio. You have to ask someone to intercede a little bit more than you would have to go straight to the source. But you want someone to back you when you do go to the source.

1. Since the Rosary concludes with the Assumption of Mary and the Crowning of Mary, Queen of Heaven, it makes it appear that those are the most important ones, as if all the preceding mysteries lead up to those.

The timeline of the Rosary is linear, but in waves – not one great crescendo. I see different valleys and peaks in the sets of mysteries.

For the Joyful mysteries, the most important is the Nativity, which comes third. In the Luminous mysteries, the Institution of the Eucharist comes last. The most important mystery in the Sorrowful is the Crucifixion, which also comes last. And the Resurrection is the highest point in the Glorious mysteries, and it comes first.

Because the Nativity comes third in the Joyful mysteries, we can’t say that the most important event always comes last. In fact, the Assumption and the Coronation seem like a predictable denoumont, and reaffirm why we can be assured of Mary’s intercession.

Please pick up Scott Hahn’s book “Hail Holy Queen.” It was a tremendous help.

 

[February]

recently i prayed nonstop for an intention for 3 weeks, something that was seriously depressing me. i asked Jesus to help me, our Blessed Mother to help me, certain saints to help me, and the communion of saints to help me.

i received some outright “signs” from saints (in particular, st. therese and st. jude) that my prayers were being heard. i’ve had some difficulties focusing on the rosary in the past; i asked the Blessed Mother to help me with my intention, and found myself praying all four mysteries of the rosary with no trouble…in one day. i also asked my own mother, who recently died, to help me; a number of “signs” from her as well.

of course, i also prayed to Jesus directly. He is the only one who can answer our prayers…the others are just joining us in prayer and asking Him to hear our intentions. i listened intently to the recent gospel readings about humility, perseverance, and thankfulness in prayer. i prayed to His sacred heart and went to adoration.

well, after going to adoration the first time, my intention was granted (i mean, literally soon after i got home). the second time i went, He helped me again (a minute after i left the church).

so what am i trying to say here? only God can answer our prayers, but asking others in heaven to pray for us too can certainly help. i might have gone crazy in the meantime without receiving certain signs that my prayers were being heard; God would eventually answer my prayers in His own time and way. not that we should expect signs, but it is a great comfort, especially to someone at an emotional low.

this discussion really hurts me personally as i have grown so close to our Blessed Mother in recent weeks. she is there to help us. it is not idolatry.

 

[Miserissima]

The phrase “Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope,” makes it sound like Mary (not Jesus) is our life, sweetness and hope.

I opened a new thread on this, because the topic intrigued me.

 

[RomanCrusader]

I do feel that some Catholics take Marian veneration to an extreme. For example, I do not support making “co-redemptrix” an official title of Mary. Regardless of the intention, the name deviates way too much from scripture and the early Catholic Church.

The Blessed Virgin is a most powerful intercessor and the Queen of Heaven, but she is also a human. She is an eternal virgin, immaculate conception, and assumed into Heaven. But she is not God or a demi-god, and she is not the Redeemer. We Catholics need to remember this.

 

[Roy5]

The emphasis many Catholics place upon Mary is troubling. I learned the Rosary at a young age, and later wondered why most of the prayers said were the ‘Hail Mary’. One priest said that this prayer came from the Bible, but then I discovered that to be a half-truth. The last part is not from the Bible.

I presume I am wrestling with some of the essential doctrines re Mary. Why is it necessary that Mary be born different from the rest of us - the Immaculate Conception, not declared an official doctrine until 1854? And why is it important that Mary not go to heaven like the rest of us - the Assumption, not declared an official doctrine until 1950?

When I have seen crowns placed on statues of Mary I can’t help but think of the commandment that forbids ‘graven images’. To honor Mary is one thing. To adore and idolize her as many do is another.

And all those apparitions! Fatima, Lourdes, and so many more. The Virgin Mary seen on the frosted window, a pizza, a tree - and large crowds gather in awe. Sounds a lot like pre-Christian paganism to me.

I want a Christianity that is reasonable, fit for this modern era, and not holding on to concepts that were acceptable in medieval times but seem primitive today. If the traditionalists win in the current battle for the soul of the the Catholic Church, the huge exodus we witness today will grow even larger.

 

[PinoyCatholic]

And that’s your infallible declaration on the matter, is it?

Did you even bother to research the underlying reason for all your observations? Why does Christianity have to fit into your definition of what is reasonable?

 

[Jestocost]

You know, you do often hear this charge from ex-Catholics, but every practicing Catholic I’ve ever known, from the “pew sitters” who know almost nothing about their faith right on up to the amateur theologians and apologists, just find the charge confusing. I admit that a crowning ceremony can look bad to those who are ignorant of the reasoning behind it, but I think that the reaction would be to ask questions rather than to scream “Mariolotry!” and run away, unless you had other issues. While I agree better catechesis is needed. I don’t think that is the issue here.

 

[Church_Militant]

The emphasis many Catholics place upon Mary is troubling. I learned the Rosary at a young age, and later wondered why most of the prayers said were the ‘Hail Mary’. One priest said that this prayer came from the Bible, but then I discovered that to be a half-truth. The last part is not from the Bible.

It’s not a half truth…Asking other believers (known as the communion of saints) is as scriptural as it gets. Download a FREE MP3 Bible study that goes along with those notes, on it here.

I presume I am wrestling with some of the essential doctrines re Mary. Why is it necessary that Mary be born different from the rest of us - the Immaculate Conception, not declared an official doctrine until 1854?

For the same reason that the original Ark of the Covenant was “born” (read: “constructed”) different from other boxes of its day. Set aside for a holy purpose.

And why is it important that Mary not go to heaven like the rest of us - the Assumption, not declared an official doctrine until 1950?

Reasons Why I Believe in The Blessed Virgin Mary’s Assumption

When I have seen crowns placed on statues of Mary I can’t help but think of the commandment that forbids ‘graven images’. To honor Mary is one thing. To adore and idolize her

as many do is another.Faithful Catholics do neither of these things.Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

You seem to have a problem with the dates at which these dogmas were defined, yet if you knew your Christian history, you would know that the Church only defines a dogma or doctrine when there is need for it. Usually when someone else attacks it.

And all those apparitions! Fatima, Lourdes, and so many more.

Perhaps you should actually look into those Marian apparitions that are approved as worthy of belief by the Church. (They are never required for belief). I believe that you’ll find that you have been misled concerning them by n-Cs & a-Cs.

The Virgin Mary seen on the frosted window, a pizza, a tree - and large crowds gather in awe. Sounds a lot like pre-Christian paganism to me.

Does to us too. Hence the lack of Church approval.

I want a Christianity that is reasonable, fit for this modern era, and not holding on to concepts that were acceptable in medieval times but seem primitive today.

Then you are out of luck. Christianity is 2,000 years old and the modern post reformation step children are actually teaching and preaching a different and deficient gospel than the one laid out in the context of the Word of God that they so loudly proclaim as their sole authority and the one that you will find proclaimed and preached in the writings of the early church.

If the traditionalists win in the current battle for the soul of the the Catholic Church, the huge exodus we witness today will grow even larger.

I disagree and in fact I do not see it as a traditionalist issue. Most of TCs that I know are faithful Catholics who love their Latin Mass and are not the extremists that a small number are.

I also disagree that there is some kind of “huge exodus” from the Catholic Church today. Where I am it is growing in numbers and strength every day. When my wife and I went to the cathedral here when we were in RCIA, the place was PACKED!

IMO, some will indeed bail, but most of that will be due to refusal to follow moral teachings, seeking and easier gospel (what I call a “Christianity Lite”) and nothing more, though they will often try to make it appear as something else.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I have been lurking for a long time, but feel I must jump in.

I am a former Catholic, and know several others who left over Mariolotry.

The Catholic Church does not teach nor practice that we worship Mary. She is venerated. We ask her to pray for us. Catholics have allies, and many of them are in heaven. It is fruitful to ask for help in our spiritual battle against the Evil One.

When I read explanations and defenses here of everything Mary, I get that same sinking feeling, because most Catholics refuse to even concede that it may be an issue, and a serious one at that.

People blame it on the person who “misunderstood” or “couldn’t be bothered to learn the truth”, but never on the people who are involved in the practices themselves.

I have read here that whenever a Catholic looks at a statue of Mary or a saint, they think of Jesus. Huh? And when a Catholic says “pray to a saint” all Catholics understand that is shorthand for “ask the saint to intercede for you”

When a Catholic looks at an icon or statue, he reflects on the life of that saint. These saints live out their life as good Christians. They suffer like Jesus, and they died like him, because they bare their own cross. Jesus said, “He who wishes to follow me, must take up his own cross.”

Likewise, we do the same. Saints are role models. Mary, the perfect exemplar lived her faith, by being obedient to God. She said yes to God by becoming the Mother of God. Her committed to God did not end there. She remain with Jesus at the foot at the cross while others left, except John, and other holy woman.

Sorry, but that is NOT true.

And the “tsk, tsk, poor catechesis” doesn’t cut it either.

or the “you can’t see into people’s hearts” bit. No, but when you are raised in a church and a Catholic culture, people share what is in their hearts. Mariolotry is rife, and because it is a sensitive issue in Catholicism, any real discussion of it is often cut short. People are so rabid to defend Mary, that they too often end up protecting the very things that most dishonor her.

Mary, most of all, would loathe to be the issue that causes souls to leave the church, yet, over and over again, the marian practices are what drive people away (or seek them from coming).

Many marian devotions have become stumbling blocks, and border or cross the border to superstition.

You tell others not to look into people’s hearts and see “worship” where there is none, but what about when Catholics say “they didn’t really leave over that issue, they really left so they could sin without remorse, and are using Mary as a scapegoat.” Isn’t that looking into someone’s heart, not taking them at their word?

Most Catholics seem unwilling to even consider that their own actions, behaviors, speech etc, in regard to Mary have anything to do with the notions people have about the Catholic church and their relationship to the mother of Christ. They just blame the other guy, say they are “haters”, etc. But sometimes there really IS an issue that should be looked at.

Poor catechesis does have something to do with people leaving the Church.

Is the practice of placing a crown on a statue and bowing to it and saying prayer before it more important than the souls that are frightened away by such practice?

If the statue has no power, if you KNOW it is NOT Mary, if you can speak to her and honor her in ways that do not cause scandal…wouldn’t that be worth the souls saved?

Crowning a statue or bowing to it is veneration. The statue is only a representation. Mary is not worship above God. The CC has never practiced it. Second, Marian devotions are not required for Catholics to practiced. They are recommended if it helps their spiritual growth.

It sadden me that Ex-Catholics use Mary as a scapegoat for leaving the Catholic Church. I do think for the most part, Ex-Catholics failed to realized that in the Catholic Church, we have Jesus Christ HIMSELF truly present Body, and Blood, Soul, and Divinity, in the Blessed Sacrament. If Mary was such a issue to them, why not come to the Lord? For Jesus did say, “My flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.”

Second, if Mary was good enough for Jesus, she’s good enough for you.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Church Militant:

I also disagree that there is some kind of “huge exodus” from the Catholic Church today. Where I am it is growing in numbers and strength every day. When my wife and I went to the cathedral here when we were in RCIA, the place was PACKED!

I think the myth of Catholics leaving in droves for Protestant Churches is not what it seems to be. According to recent statistics, the Catholic Church has increased to 15 million members in addition for the first in time in England, Catholics will outnumbered Anglicans.

I know this out of topic… but I felt the need to share this.

 

[ElizabethPH]

Many Catholics turned Protestant have told me Catholics worship Mary. This leads me to believe that they were guilty of mariolatry. Now that I know more of what the Church teaches I see that these people were underinformed about their faith. My question is whether most Catholics are ignorant of Church teaching, or not, and do many Catholics worship Mary? Don’t get me wrong, I’m Catholic(less than a week) but I’ve been around many ex Catholics and don’t know if this is reserved mostly to them or not.

I have never met a Catholic who worships Mary. I think that there are Catholics who have not taken the responsibility to learn their religion as is the case with non-Catholics as well I’m sure. But such a thing as Mary worship would have never ever been taught…and is something an ex-Catholic or non-Catholic has misunderstood along the line someplace. It’s just a shame.

 

[1ke]

My question is whether most Catholics are ignorant of Church teaching,

no

and do many Catholics worship Mary?

no

Don’t get me wrong, I’m Catholic(less than a week) but I’ve been around many ex Catholics and don’t know if this is reserved mostly to them or not.

Most ex-Catholics use these types of things as an excuse for leaving the faith. Typically, these Catholics have actually left due to a personal sin that they refuse to give up and that the Church teaches is wrong. More specifically this is usually a sexual sin or violation of the sixth commandment-- contraception, divorce/remarriage, cohabitation, homosexuality, abortion, etc.

Then, they get hooked up with anti-Catholics and start agreeing with all the outrageous things they say to bolster their own decision to leave the faith.

 

[Calliope]

I have never met a Catholic who worships Mary. I think that there are Catholics who have not taken the responsibility to learn their religion as is the case with non-Catholics as well I’m sure. But such a thing as Mary worship would have never ever been taught…and is something an ex-Catholic or non-Catholic has misunderstood along the line someplace. It’s just a shame.

The common lay person is not a theologian. Often, the shades of meaning between dulia, hyperdulia, and latria are not clear, if indeed these terms are known at all.

When a priest leads a ceremony where a statue of the virgin is paraded around, crowned, prayed to, and bowed before, that can be a tad misleading to the young people and those to whom the theology has not been made clear.

When people see candles lit before her statue, and tearful people kissing her feet, similar to what people are seen doing to the crucifix, it can be hard for many to tell the difference between the level of homage being paid.

Yes, it IS a shame. Those kids and those people who don’t understand (even though they don’t know they don’t understand) should assume that their teachers, nuns and priests are not fully catechising them and get themselves some more trustworthy and complete texts to explain the true meaning of the faith.

I know I was led to worship the Virgin, by action and fervor, if not by direct instruction, as a young person. But coming here and reading posts has made me understand that the sin was fully mine, because I didn’t take responsibility to learn my faith, I trusted the priests, nuns, teachers, and adults around me, who were participating in the same actions, though, now I understand, they were NOT worshipping, but only doing hyperdulia.

I guess that the graces promised by Mary to those who were devoted to her, bypassed me since my devotion was improper. Otherwise, I’m sure the virgin herself would have protected me from improper devotion and led me closer to her son. Again, I should have taken responsibility, saved my allowance and purchased myself a catechism.

 

[Calliope]

no

no

Most ex-Catholics use these types of things as an excuse for leaving the faith. Typically, these Catholics have actually left due to a personal sin that they refuse to give up and that the Church teaches is wrong. More specifically this is usually a sexual sin or violation of the sixth commandment-- contraception, divorce/remarriage, cohabitation, homosexuality, abortion, etc.

Then, they get hooked up with anti-Catholics and start agreeing with all the outrageous things they say to bolster their own decision to leave the faith.

Thank you very much for explaining this to me. I thought I left the church over issues of doctrine and practice, but you have been able to see into my heart and tell me what is REALLY going on.

I have read that no one should judge the heart of someone showing devotion to Mary, and assume it is worship. But I see that it is OK to judge the heart of people who leave the church and assume they do it so they can enjoy sexual sin. How much clarity your faith gives you, that you can read the heart and souls of others. And it saves time not having to discuss those annoying issues of faith and practice that they try to hide behind.

I have learned so much here.

 

[Jestocost]

The common lay person is not a theologian. Often, the shades of meaning between dulia, hyperdulia, and latria are not clear, if indeed these terms are known at all.

When a priest leads a ceremony where a statue of the virgin is paraded around, crowned, prayed to, and bowed before, that can be a tad misleading to the young people and those to whom the theology has not been made clear.

When people see candles lit before her statue, and tearful people kissing her feet, similar to what people are seen doing to the crucifix, it can be hard for many to tell the difference between the level of homage being paid.

Yes, it IS a shame. Those kids and those people who don’t understand (even though they don’t know they don’t understand) should assume that their teachers, nuns and priests are not fully catechising them and get themselves some more trustworthy and complete texts to explain the true meaning of the faith.

I know I was led to worship the Virgin, by action and fervor, if not by direct instruction, as a young person. But coming here and reading posts has made me understand that the sin was fully mine, because I didn’t take responsibility to learn my faith, I trusted the priests, nuns, teachers, and adults around me, who were participating in the same actions, though, now I understand, they were NOT worshipping, but only doing hyperdulia.

I guess that the graces promised by Mary to those who were devoted to her, bypassed me since my devotion was improper. Otherwise, I’m sure the virgin herself would have protected me from improper devotion and led me closer to her son. Again, I should have taken responsibility, saved my allowance and purchased myself a catechism.

I’m sorry that you have been so hurt and it has made you so bitter. I pray that you will find comfort and peace. Understand that when people speculate about why people leave the Church they are speaking to generalities and not specific cases and baseing it on their own experience, just as you base your claim that Mariolotry is “rife” in the church on your own experience.
One other thing: you say that you were lead to excessive devotion and that Mary never led you away from it. What exactly did lead you away from it then?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I guess that the graces promised by Mary to those who were devoted to her, bypassed me since my devotion was improper. Otherwise, I’m sure the virgin herself would have protected me from improper devotion and led me closer to her son. Again, I should have taken responsibility, saved my allowance and purchased myself a catechism.

I would highly recommending buying the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I also recommend going to John Martignoni’s Bible Christian Society website at biblechristiansociety.com

He has a great material on Mary.

biblechristiansociety.com/download/mp3/mary_and_the_bible.mp3

 

[Calliope]

One other thing: you say that you were lead to excessive devotion and that Mary never led you away from it. What exactly did lead you away from it then?

God

 

[mlchance]

I’m confused. Calliope admits that he/she (?) worshipped the Virgin Mary as a Catholic, but also must know by now that such activity really is contrary to Catholic teaching. It is a shame Calliope’s faith was malformed in such a way. But now, knowing that such activity was wrong (indeed gravely wrong), what other reasons are there from not returning the Catholic faith as it is truly meant to be practiced?

On another note, iIn my own informal, purely unscientific sampling of ex-Catholics before I was ex-Baptist, the real crux of the issue always seemed to devolve back to something to do with the genitals. IOW, the real reason for leaving the Church was divorce/remarriage and/or contraception.

The rest of the objections – whether real or imagined – seemed more like after-the-fact rationalizations.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Jestocost]

God

Do you believe then that Mary desired your devotion or was powerless to stop it. Is it not possible that she pray for you to cease it?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I’m confused. Calliope admits that he/she (?) worshipped the Virgin Mary as a Catholic, but also must know by now that such activity really is contrary to Catholic teaching. It is a shame Calliope’s faith was malformed in such a way. But now, knowing that such activity was wrong (indeed gravely wrong), what other reasons are there from not returning the Catholic faith as it is truly meant to be practiced?

On another note, iIn my own informal, purely unscientific sampling of ex-Catholics while before I was ex-Baptist, the real crux of the issue always seemed to devolve back to something to do with the genitals. IOW, the real reason for leaving the Church was divorce/remarriage and/or contraception.

The rest of the objections – whether real or imagined – seemed more like after-the-fact rationalizations.

– Mark L. Chance.

That seems to be the case with most Ex-Catholics who assumed, that we worship Mary. I wonder how many of them ever bother to ask a priest or look up Church document concerning this.